Israel and USA: Best Friends

[rturner76]

Yes, as they are 1/12th of the 12 sons of the House of Israel (the person) and a breakaway nation from the original nation of Israel.

Are the other 11 tribes break aways also or who actually makes up the nation of Israel? I'm a bit confused, forgive me.

 

[timothyu]

I always thought Israel was the nation and the 12 tribes were members of that nation. Is that incorrect?

That was correct until the nation split into Judah and Israel when the Jews broke away. Like when the Romans split from the universal church. In Jesus' time most of His story took place in Judah (Judea).

 

[rturner76]

That was correct until the nation split into Judah and Israel when the Jews broke away. Like when the Romans split from the universal church. In Jesus' time most of His story took place in Judah (Judea).

I still don't see how the house of Judah replaces the nation of Israel which is still in place today.

 

[timothyu]

I still don't see how the house of Judah replaces the nation of Israel which is still in place today.

The country today is named Israel but is now the sole property of those who were of Judea (Judah). Wonder why they didn't take their original name other than they wanted it all for self and set themselves up as the Kingdom of Israel while disowning the rest of the family that were also Israelites. The other 10 tribes are not allowed in and the Jews have claimed the name of a nation they once split away from. That would be like the US calling itself England now.

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm pretty sure that it matters little what the world claims as the remenants of Israels family, the 12 sons, who became the 2 tribes.

God is the one that matters here. To Him, the nation of Israel is the twelve tribes. Whatever is remanining of them, God will hold as Israel.

However, they have left His will and not accepted Christ as the messiah. They await the messiah.

 

[rturner76]

The country today is named Israel but is now the sole property of those who were of Judea (Judah). Wonder why they didn't take their original name other than they wanted it all for self and set themselves up as the Kingdom of Israel while disowning the rest of the family that were also Israelites. The other 10 tribes are not allowed in and the Jews have claimed the name of a nation they once split away from. That would be like the US calling itself England now.

So does the nation of Israel include the nation of Judah or is Judah its own separate nation? Then where are the other 11 tribes in terms of being of the same laws of Israel?

 

[timothyu]

So does the nation of Israel include the nation of Judah or is Judah its own separate nation?

It once did before Judah broke away and named itself Judah, the new nation that once was the south part of Israel when it was a complete entity.

Then where are the other 11 tribes in terms of being of the same laws of Israel?

The original nation of Israel to the north of Judah was destroyed and the tribes scattered. (just like what happened to Judah later) There are many claims of connection today to those 'lost' tribes, but the Jews refuse to allow any but their own tribe to come back to todays Israel.

 

[parousia70]

Deuteronomy 14:2 ESV​

For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

This was written 3400 years ago.
How does that prove to you that Modern Israeli's are that same people?

Maybe in your book ANYONE can claim to be that same people today and you just believe it?

The fact is, the MULTI-ETHNIC melting pot of citizens that make up the population of Modern, secular, democratic Israel are no more related to the pre desolation Hebrews than you or I, and there is not even one scripture or genetic test that says otherwise.

 

[rturner76]

There are many claims of connection today to those 'lost' tribes, but the Jews refuse to allow any but their own tribe to come back to todays Israel.

THat sounds like Judah is part of the nation of Israel. WHere are the Levites in all of this?

 

[parousia70]

WHere are the Levites in all of this?

Good question.

To follow what Moses commanded, Jews *must* be able to prove their genealogy.

Do you know where the priests are today who will identify the Levites for us? Do you know where the Urim and Thummim are (Ezra 2:63, Nehemiah 7:65)? Of course you don't.

But, Todays Jews don't really care about that scriptural command, for they Don't follwow Moses at all, which they MUST do, in order to be reckoned as Jews of Scripture.

 

[timothyu]

THat sounds like Judah is part of the nation of Israel. WHere are the Levites in all of this?

Yes, they are but have ghosted their brethren. The Levites were absorbed into the Judean nation, a smart move considering Moses was a Levite, not a Jew.

 

[JacksBratt]

I still don't see how the house of Judah replaces the nation of Israel which is still in place today.

I don't think it does.

IMO they are not "Jews" but Israelites. The descendants of Israel.. or more logically, the descendents of his 12 sons who formed the 12 tribes.

There is not "Jews" and Israel. There will always be 12 tribes. They are either descendants of one of the sons.. or.. .they are gentiles.

Just because the tribe of Judah broke off.. doesn't change the fact that there are 11 other tribes.

They are still the choosen people but they have not accepted Christ as the messiah. They are still waiting for their messiah.

Unless they are messianic Jews who are of the Jewish liniage but accept Christ as the messiah.

 

[FireDragon76]

Israel and the US have a very close relationship. I guess the relationship between Israel and the US is greater than Europe and the US. I think the reason why Israel and the US are pretty strongly allied has to do with 2 things: evangelicalism and money.

Evangelicalism: There are many evangelicals in the USA and it is no secret that most evangelicals are Christian Zionists. They are convinced that Israel is still the people of God and hold to the idea that whoever blesses Israel will be blessed. They are partly so radical that they see every opponent of Israel as a demon, as an enemy of God.

They aren't actually doing it, though, because they care about actual Jews. Just because of their peculiar end-times beliefs they have as Fundamentalists. Views that have no basis in the catholic faith shared by the majority of Christians around the world.

 

[JacksBratt]

They aren't actually doing it, though, because they care about actual Jews. Just because of their peculiar end-times beliefs they have as Fundamentalists. Views that have no basis in the catholic faith shared by the majority of Christians around the world.

I think it has to do, also, with the fact that the Jewish people have had a huge role in making the US what it is today. Combine that with the fact that our allies generally side with the Jewish people after the holocaust. Enemies of Israel are generally enemy's of the west.

And, even the most antisemitic people in power in the US and Canada know it would be political suicide to go against Israel.

That's why almost every president in the last three decades or more, talked about moving the embassy to Jerusalem... Only Trump had the guts to do it.

 

[rturner76]

Views that have no basis in the catholic faith shared by the majority of Christians around the world.

The only people who walked away from the Catholic (universal) faith are the ones who wanted to put their own theology in front of the original NT Church. That's what makes me question many Protestant groups. If you don't like a doctrine, just change it to reflect how you feel now. So instead of trying to learn from these churches, we reject them because they are from the "false doctrine" of Catholicism.

 

[rturner76]

That's why almost every president in the last three decades or more, talked about moving the embassy to Jerusalem... Only Trump had the guts to do it.

Could that be said more like Trump had the audacity to do it? Jerusalem was an international city like Mecca. I think it was a direct provocation against the Islamic State. No need to add fuel to the fire when they had a large and fairly safe capital in Tel Aviv. Taking over Jerusalem, only made more martyrs line up to bomb innocents.

 

[BobRyan]

The only people who walked away from the Catholic (universal) faith are the ones who wanted to put their own theology in front of the original NT Church.

They were "protesting Catholic scholars" in many cases such as Wycliff, Huss, Calvin, Luther ...

That's what makes me question many Protestant groups. If you don't like a doctrine, just change it to reflect how you feel now.

ON the contrary - the Protestant (protesting-catholic) argument was to affirm sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice even if they had to be killed for holding to their POV

 

[BobRyan]

The other 10 tribes are not allowed in

Where does that I idea come from.

John the baptizer was of the tribe of Levi not Judah, and not Benjamin.
Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin

 

[hislegacy]

Israel and the US have a very close relationship. I guess the relationship between Israel and the US is greater than Europe and the US. I think the reason why Israel and the US are pretty strongly allied has to do with 2 things: evangelicalism and money.

Be cautious: Equating our relationship with Israel being directly connected to money (the Benjamin's) is regarded as an anti-Semitic trope, who historical usage dates back the the Nazi regime in the 30'3 and 40's.

Evangelicalism: There are many evangelicals in the USA and it is no secret that most evangelicals are Christian Zionists. They are convinced that Israel is still the people of God and hold to the idea that whoever blesses Israel will be blessed. They are partly so radical that they see every opponent of Israel as a demon, as an enemy of God.

I cannot agree with the bolded and underlined assumption. Christians are a group are only 1.9% of the population of Israel, while the second largest religion are Muslims (21%).

Money: The Israeli lobby apparently buys the favor of politicians through donations.

HOGWASH! Are there Israeli lobbyist - yes - are there Chinese Lobbyist? Are there Palestinian Lobbyist - Yes Name one country who does not send lobbyist in one form or another, to blame one nation as it is written is racist in nature - you might want to state it in another way or delete it.

Where will this friendship lead? Biden said that one does not have to be a Jew to be a Zionist. The USA is ready to go far with Israel, even to the downfall. The evangelicals with their unorthodox teachings will go down with Israel.

Our friendship with the ONLY Democratic nation in the Middle East is the main reason for our connection. Between finances, weaponry, military basses and airfields open for our use is key to maintaining peace in the region.

 

[FireDragon76]

Be cautious: Equating our relationship with Israel being directly connected to money (the Benjamin's) is regarded as an anti-Semitic trope, who historical usage dates back the the Nazi regime in the 30'3 and 40's.

I cannot agree with the bolded and underlined assumption. Christians are a group are only 1.9% of the population of Israel, while the second largest religion are Muslims (21%).

That isn't relevant to the theological rationale behind Christian Zionism.

Our friendship with the ONLY Democratic nation in the Middle East is the main reason for our connection. Between finances, weaponry, military basses and airfields open for our use is key to maintaining peace in the region.

Israel is considered a "flawed democracy", much moreso even than the United States. If you follow the news of what is happening there, the judiciary has been losing its independence and is becoming political in nature.