who or what is the Devil, Satan, that old serpent, the great dragon?

Vanguard PCD

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If Satan wasn't a personality reality as depicted in a number of places in the Bible, then it's the Bible that has mislead people to think that he was.

The Bible hasn't misled anyone...man did. Human interpretation has messed things up considerably over the centuries, especially the KJV. If you could read Hebrew and Greek, and knew the cultural idioms of the time, you'd see clearly what they were talking about. Modern Christians are looking at those verses after centuries of folklore, mysticism and blowing things out of proportion.

And Lucifer is most definitely NOT a name for "satan."
 
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rick357

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It's ok to write your own story but that's not what Genesis says. Besides, there was already man on earth, Cain was afraid of the tribes outside of the garden, but he would eventually leave and find his wife in Nod where he built a city. Death for man was normal, it was Adam and Eve that lost their immortality.

Cain was born after they left the garden
 
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Colter

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Cain was born after they left the garden

True, they were in the second garden home after Adam and Eves fall. That's where Cain and Abel were herder and farmer in the community, they made tithes to a religious order.

After killing Able, Cain reluctantly left the garden with fear of the outside tribes.
 
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Colter

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The Bible hasn't misled anyone...man did. Human interpretation has messed things up considerably over the centuries, especially the KJV. If you could read Hebrew and Greek, and knew the cultural idioms of the time, you'd see clearly what they were talking about. Modern Christians are looking at those verses after centuries of folklore, mysticism and blowing things out of proportion.

And Lucifer is most definitely NOT a name for "Satan."

Lucifer and Satan were 2 different beings. Satan was Lucifer's assistant.

I can understand people who reject belief in a fallen devil being who "mislead the whole world", he gets blamed for a whole bunch of human conduct that has nothing to do with devilish temptation, but this isn't an issue of mistranslations. The Bible books speak of Satan as a personality as well as an influence. The same goes for rebel demons.
 
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he-man

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If Satan wasn't a personality reality as depicted in a number of places in the Bible, then it's the Bible that has mislead people to think that he was.
:doh:
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Note the use of the SMALL 'g' in god. The 'god of THIS WORLD' is NOT the Father of Christ. The 'god of this world' is Satan, the devil, that old serpent, great dragon. For this world does NOT follow God, but the 'god of this world'. And the 'god of this world' has many 'angels' that do his bidding. I call them DEMONS. So, WHO IS this 'god of this world'? Blessings, MEC
Sorry to blow your theory, but The New Testament was written in all CAPS called Unicals.
A New Testament uncial is a section of the New Testament in Greek or Latin majuscule letters, written on parchment or vellum. This style of writing is called Biblical Uncial or Biblical Majuscule. List of New Testament uncials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

apostle means the true GOD by the words the god of this world. [/U][/B]that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost of THIS WORLD, mean simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come.

The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancientsThe Adam Clarke Commentary
2 Corinthians 4 - Adam Clarke Commentary


This exact sense of the word diabolos, namely, as embracing the utterer of false accusation, develops the force of another passage in which Jesus, after being falsely-accused by the Jews, charges them:- Jno. 8v 44-“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye do” -that is, you adopt the character of a false accuserin calumniating me: ye, as such, are the children of this state of mind.

You, in mind, are led away by the accursed disposition of falsely-accusing: ye are the children mentally of the false-accuser, and being so, your mental perceptions manifest their parentage. And the destructive character of this falsely-accusing state of mind, of this slaying by calumny all that is excellent, of this giving false views of the character of God, is exhibited by the passage in question;

Jno. 8v 44 - “He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because truth is not in him: when he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.” So that when the mind is in this state, truth is not present: it is banished: the mind generates lies: it murders truth. This selfish state slays the man, defacing the likeness-to-God state: and this, from the very first, when it gained the mastery.


Another passage in the Common Version in which the phrase “the devil” occurs would be beautifully expressive, truly natural, if rendered according to the proper interpretation, “false-accuser.” Paul is recommending the Ephesians to perform all
the social duties in such a way as to give no cause of complaint to any one, not even the most captious; to those anxiously looking for opportunities to charge them with offences:

Eph. 4v 27-”Neither give place to the false accuser” (tou diabolou) - that is, give no opportunity to any one who would be glad to charge you with offences against the law. And that Paul refers to a human, and not to an invisible, enemy, is proved by the context, where offences are referred to that are objects of notice by the civil magistrate before whom the false-accuser, but not the “devil,” would be happy to have the opportunity of taking the believer: “Let him that stole steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.”

Another passage in which the word diabolos in the Common Version, rendered “the devil,” would, if rendered “false accuser,” exhibit the sense in its beautiful simplicity, is, “And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These things saith the first and the last, which was dead and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those thinks which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried: and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life,” Rev. 2v 8, 9, 10.

It is quite certain that the “devil,” an invisible agent, could not cast them (that is, human bodies) into prison, but a diabolos, a false-accuser, by branding them with charges before a civil magistrate, might obtain their committal: and that such a false-accuser, or such false-accusers, are human beings, is proved by the preceding verse, wherein they are described as “Jews, and are not, but are the Synagogue, or the assembly, of the adversary” (tou Satanas - the Translators have left out the tou “thee,” which is before “Satan,” which latter means adversary).

The passage, therefore, will appear in its clearness when the word diabolos is rendered according to its simple meaning. “Fear none of these things, which thou shalt suffer: behold, the false-accuser shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried.”
The Devil, A Biblical Exposition
 
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com7fy8

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Our Apostle Paul says,

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," (Ephesians 2:1-2)

So, there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience".

I understand this is Satan's spirit . . . the spirit of evil and selfishness.

And this spiritual being has feelings and emotions . . . personality with its nasty and dominating anger and unforgiveness and pleasure-seeking preferences and emotions.

So, we can know who Satan is, by seeing how his nasty and dominating and pleasure seeking emotions are . . . working in us. These controlling and demanding and complaining emotions are nasty. We need how God's love cures our character so we are not available to being effected by Satanic stuff which is not "gentle and lowly in heart" like Jesus in us (Matthew 11:28-30).

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

I have found that every torment in my personality is somehow connected to a fear. And God's love easily and breezily and beautifully has gotten rid of any messy nasty paranoid depressed suicidal perverted controlling criticizing nastiness in me.

And Jesus came and shared in flesh and blood with us, "that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (in Hebrews 2:14-15)

I have found that every fear is somehow connected with "fear of death" . . . fear of losing my life or something that I treasure in my life. And with fears come different sorts of personality torments. Because Satan's spirit is horrible. I now understand that Satan's horrible spirit is trying to get pleasures to make it feel better. And we in selfishness can be piggy-backing on Satan's problem, trying uselessly to use pleasures to make that deep awful-mess of sin's misery go away.

So, it is good to know who in our personality is Satan and who is Jesus. Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But while I am seeking pleasures, and trying to only use people instead of caring for them . . . in my weakness for pleasure and control to get it, I also am weak enough to suffer torments.
 
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Colter

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Scripture please.

Isaiah 14:12

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Job 1:6

"Now there was a day when the son(s) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."

But rick357 is correct, I get my understanding of these Biblical fragments from the Urantia revelation that occurred in the early 1900's which explains much more about who all the fallen rebels were, what the war was, the implications for our world and what to expect going forward.
 
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abysmul

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Isaiah 14:12

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Job 1:6

"Now there was a day when the son(s) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them."

But rick357 is correct, I get my understanding of these Biblical fragments from the Urantia revelation that occurred I the early 1900's which explains much more about who all the fallen rebels were, what the war was, the implications for our world and what to expect going forward.


You said:
Lucifer and Satan were 2 different beings. Satan was Lucifer's assistant.

No scripture to support that.

and.... Lucifer??? Where?


New American Standard Bible
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!


International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!



English Standard Version
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!


New International Version
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!


oh... https://bible.org/article/lucifer-devil-isaiah-1412-kjv-argument-against-modern-translations

Apologetics Press - Is Satan "Lucifer"?







That being said, thank you for clarifying that you hold non Biblical texts equal or higher than the texts of the Bible.
 
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rick357

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*[[Isa 14:12-17]] RNKJV*
%v 12% How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
%v 13% For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of El: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
%v 14% I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
%v 15% Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
%v 16% They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
%v 17% That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?


If we continue to read verse 16 clearly states lucifer(a title not a name) is a man...Adam
 
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Colter

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You said:

No scripture to support that.

and.... Lucifer??? Where?


New American Standard Bible
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!


International Standard Version
"How you have fallen from heaven, Day Star, son of the Dawn! How you have been thrown down to earth, you who laid low the nation!



English Standard Version
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!


New International Version
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!


oh... https://bible.org/article/lucifer-devil-isaiah-1412-kjv-argument-against-modern-translations

Apologetics Press - Is Satan "Lucifer"?







That being said, thank you for clarifying that you hold non Biblical texts equal or higher than the texts of the Bible.

See KJV for Lucifer, Jerome used the proper name in the Vulgate translation.

Revelation is ongoing.
 
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Vanguard PCD

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See KJV for Lucifer, Jerome used the proper name in the Vulgate translation.

Why would you use the KJV, when it has bad translations?

Jerome was wrong in capitalizing the L in lucifer in his Latin Vulgate. Why do you think modern translations have removed it?

The entire chapter is talking about a fallen Babylonian king. Period. End of story.
 
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Colter

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Why would you use the KJV, when it has bad translations?

Jerome was wrong in capitalizing the L in lucifer in his Latin Vulgate. Why do you think modern translations have removed it?

The entire chapter is talking about a fallen Babylonian king. Period. End of story.

Jerome didn't invent the name "Lucifer", it had been around in lore.

Isaiah's use of Greek mythology was a parabolic play, he had the evil one as the real king over the King of Babylon.
 
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Anto9us

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Not all New Testament manuscripts are Uncials, He-Man -- far from it.

And a lot of the ones that are non-Uncials rarely have capital letters at all except for proper names or first word in a paragraph or sentence.

theos is lowercase in Koine Greek the majority of the time among 2500-3000 NT manuscripts

so to worry about whether English word "God" is "god" or "God" is kind of useless
 
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agape101

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2 Corinthians 4:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Note the use of the SMALL 'g' in god. The 'god of THIS WORLD' is NOT the Father of Christ. The 'god of this world' is Satan, the devil, that old serpent, great dragon. For this world does NOT follow God, but the 'god of this world'. And the 'god of this world' has many 'angels' that do his bidding. I call them DEMONS.

So, WHO IS this 'god of this world'?

Blessings,

MEC


He works for God. Obviously authority has to come from God and revelation explains the timeframe when the adversary will be bound..... So God uses him for his intended purpose for a time period
 
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Vanguard PCD

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Jerome didn't invent the name "Lucifer", it had been around in lore.

Isaiah's use of Greek mythology was a parabolic play, he had the evil one as the real king over the King of Babylon.

Uhm, yeah... :doh:
 
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he-man

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Not all New Testament manuscripts are Uncials, He-Man -- far from it.And a lot of the ones that are non-Uncials rarely have capital letters at all except for proper names or first word in a paragraph or sentence. theos is lowercase in Koine Greek the majority of the time among 2500-3000 NT manuscripts so to worry about whether English word "God" is "god" or "God" is kind of useless
Sorry to blow your theory, but The New Testament was written in all CAPS called Unicals.
A New Testament uncial is a section of the New Testament in Greek or Latin majuscule letters, written on parchment or vellum. This style of writing is called Biblical Uncial or Biblical Majuscule. List of New Testament uncials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note the Nomina Sacra over the word GOD here in the Codex Sinaiticus:Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Genesis | Query&book=39&chapter=4&lid=en&side=r&verse=4&zoomSlider=0

ca. A.D. 200 250 300 350 450

Matthew P45 B Sin.
Mark P45 B Sin. A
Luke P4,P45,P75 B Sin. A
John P66 P45,P75 B Sin. A
Acts P45 B Sin. A
Romans-Hebrews P46 B Sin. A
James-Jude P72,B Sin. A
Apocalypse P47 Sin. A

As you can see, from the fourth century onwards the material base for establishing the text of the Greek New Testament is very good indeed. The manuscripts Sin. (Sinaiticus), A (Alexandrinus) and B (Vaticanus) are almost complete parchment manuscripts. With the help of the earlier papyrus manuscripts we have been able to establish that the text of these three great manuscripts is to a large extent reliable. The papyrus manuscript P75 was the latest to be published, but it showed a virtually identical text to manuscript B. This settled the vexed question whether we have in the parchment manuscripts of the fourth and fifth centuries a safe guide to the original text of the New Testament.
Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts

apostle means the true GOD by the words the god of this world. that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost of THIS WORLD, mean simply mankind at large in their state of probation in this lower world, in opposition to their state in the world to come.

The same meaning the word has in several other places, to which l need not refer; it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is called τω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
2 Corinthians 4 - Adam Clarke Commentary
 
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com7fy8

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So, WHO IS this 'god of this world'?

Blessings,

MEC
In the Bible Greek manuscripts, according to my reading . . . "o theos" usually means "the God". The thing is that "theos" is not capitalized in the Greek Bible, because it is not a proper name; so it is not capitalized, even when referring to our Heavenly Father. But in English we capitalize "God" and use it as a proper name for Him.

Also, there is one place that I know of, where "o theos" is used for other than God > in 2 Corinthians 4:4 our Apostle Paul talks about how "the god of this age" "has blinded" the "minds" of unbelievers. Here "the god" is "o theos", in the Greek Bible manuscript, but I think it is clear that this means Satan, who "has blinded" people's "minds".

And in Ephesians 2:2, Paul talks about "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." I can see that Satan who blinds people's minds is also the one who works in people to have them disobeying God.

Plus - - in 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul says, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." And, in Isaiah 14:12 we see what Isaiah says to "Lucifer, son of the morning". By the way . . . ones say "Lucifer" can mean "day star". So - - if Lucifer can give off some kind of light, by being a "day star" - - this, for me, fits with how Satan "transforms himself into an angel of light". I see they can mean the same one. And, "of course", Satan's "light" is false - - not the light of God's love.

Plus, it says Lucifer is "fallen from heaven" >

Jesus says, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," in Luke 10:18.

So . . . again . . . I can see that Lucifer and Satan are the same one who has "fallen from heaven".

But a prophecy can multi-task :) I understand. This prophecy of Isaiah could also be talking about a person in human history, who was high-up and has fallen so far.

But what I find to be especially important is how it says "Lucifer" is called "You who weakened the nations," in Isaiah 10:18.

And this is true of Satan. He makes nations weak.

Why?

So he can control the people in his kingdom.

Therefore, I would say it is good to understand how Satan can make people and countries weak.

One way to keep people weak is to keep their attention away from God who would make people strong, in His love.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, Satan can use media to call a lot of attention to things that have people in fear. And this can keep us from paying attention to God and submitting to how He makes us strong in His love.

There is the constant warring for our attention, then.

Also, we can see how one country has an industry of killing unborn people. Yet, this country is so busy with criticizing other countries and groups who are inhumane. While a person is busy with pointing at the wrongs of others, the person may not notice how he or she oneself needs correction. And in this a person has weak character so the person can be controlled by Satan. And we see how ones not caring for their unborn also are not doing well to care for their own selves and other countries. If you have a killer spirit, this can wreck you so you are weak enough to suffer in many different torments.

But "perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment".

Therefore, Satan "works" (Ephesians 2:2) people into torments of their personalities; this is included in how he makes people weak > so they will try to seek pleasure to get relief from their torments. And their pleasure seeking helps to keep them from giving themselves and their attention to God and how He corrects us and makes us strong and safe in His love.
 
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