who or what is the Devil, Satan, that old serpent, the great dragon?

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Jesus had a gospel before the cross ever happened, it was forgiveness by faith. That only requires common sense, he wasn't telling people that they were saved because he was going to be rejected and killed. That's Pagan theology.

Years after Jesus left, the gospels were written. That's AFTER the cross, that's how "take up your cross" found its way into the recollection of what Jesus was purported to have said......even though the cross had not happened.

Twisting scripture to make it line up with your false assumptions/presuppositions. Whole bunch of folks round here doing that, e.g. SDA, LDS, WWCG, UPCI, UU, OP INC, all with their own false doctrines which contradict and are contradicted by all the others. All have one thing in common they claim that the church has been wrong for 2000 years and they alone out of thousands and thousands of people know the real truth.
 
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Colter

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Twisting scripture to make it line up with your false assumptions/presuppositions. Whole bunch of folks round here doing that, e.g. SDA, LDS, WWCG, UPCI, UU, OP INC, all with their own false doctrines which contradict and are contradicted by all the others. All have one thing in common they claim that the church has been wrong for 2000 years and they alone out of thousands and thousands of people know the real truth.

Killing Jesus was a sin. The church of Judaism did that to him, they were wrong then and still reject Jesus today.

You claim I'm twisting the truth by pointing out that long before the cross Jesus had a "good news" gospel. He went from town to town preaching the good news, people believed and were saved. That message changed after his death.
 
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rick357

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Killing Jesus was a sin. The church of Judaism did that to him, they were wrong then and still reject Jesus today.

You claim I'm twisting the truth by pointing out that long before the cross Jesus had a "good news" gospel. He went from town to town preaching the good news, people believed and were saved. That message changed after his death.

It was leadership of judaism that was complicate in killing Christ....yet as he said no one took his life he laid it down so he might take it back up....yet the message did not change....
This would make a good thread but it is completly off topic for this thread
 
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Colter

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It was leadership of judaism that was complicate in killing Christ....yet as he said no one took his life he laid it down so he might take it back up....yet the message did not change....
This would make a good thread but it is completly off topic for this thread

Yes, and what was the reason Jesus gave for laying down his life and taking it up again?
 
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rick357

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Yes, and what was the reason Jesus gave for laying down his life and taking it up again?

That his sheep could have life....which is to experiance oneness with God and share in his life....notice also at a certain place where the people would have made him king he slipped away because he knew all men.....it was necessary for him to die that Adam could be crucified in us that his goods of self could be spoiled....for we can not have life of self and life of the Father at the same time...we must be one as he is one....to this purpose it was necessary that he must die that the reign of God could live in us
 
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Colter

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That his sheep could have life....which is to experiance oneness with God and share in his life....notice also at a certain place where the people would have made him king he slipped away because he knew all men.....it was necessary for him to die that Adam could be crucified in us that his goods of self could be spoiled....for we can not have life of self and life of the Father at the same time...we must be one as he is one....to this purpose it was necessary that he must die that the reign of God could live in us

Thank you rick357 for sharing your faith understanding of the meaning of the cross. It is not my intention to be critical of your sincere faith. I will share my faith and reasoning.


The reason that Jesus gave when he directly spoke about his voluntary death:



John 2:19

"The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."​


Proof of his authority, in his gospel message, as he returned to believers after he took his life back up again to prove what he said in his gospel was true; there is life after death. The cross was 1) sharing mans death experience as Jesus had already shared our life experience, 2) an act of Love that lead many to faith.


.

.
 
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rick357

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Thank you rick357 for sharing your faith understanding of the meaning of the cross. It is not my intention to be critical of your sincere faith. I will share my faith and reasoning.

The reason that Jesus gave when he directly spoke about his voluntary death:


John 2:19

"The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."

Proof of his authority, in his gospel message, as he returned to believers after he took his life back up again to prove what he said in his gospel was true; there is life after death. The cross was 1) sharing mans death experience as Jesus had already shared our life experience, 2) an act of Love that lead many to faith.

.

.

Yes he showed authority ...yet his death and resurection showed there was life after death but only in him....but we can not get a complete picture of what was done by only accounting for one thing said.....
Prior post you asked me why Jesus laid down his life my answer about giving life to sheep is from that same place in scripture...

*[[Joh 10:7-18]] KJV*
%v 7% Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
%v 8% All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
%v 9% I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
%v 10% The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
%v 11% I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
%v 12% But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
%v 13% The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
%v 14% I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
%v 15% As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
%v 16% And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
%v 17% Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
%v 18% No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So it is not only to show that in him alone is life after death but to facilitate those that are his to be able to partake of his life.
 
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Colter

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Yes he showed authority ...yet his death and resurection showed there was life after death but only in him....but we can not get a complete picture of what was done by only accounting for one thing said.....
Prior post you asked me why Jesus laid down his life my answer about giving life to sheep is from that same place in scripture...

*[[Joh 10:7-18]] KJV*
%v 7% Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
%v 8% All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
%v 9% I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
%v 10% The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
%v 11% I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
%v 12% But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
%v 13% The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
%v 14% I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
%v 15% As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
%v 16% And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
%v 17% Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
%v 18% No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

So it is not only to show that in him alone is life after death but to facilitate those that are his to be able to partake of his life.

True, the Son incarnate is our creator, he has always been the way, not a new way. This was revealed in his life. Jesus made the way to the Father more clear.
 
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he-man

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If Christ is the pinnacle of human existence in its most apex form, "that old dragon" is like the pinnacle of serpentine existence. This is a reason why this entity spoke through a serpent - as it is of the root of serpents/reptiles (which are dragons also.)
The usual translation
 
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rick357

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True, the Son incarnate is our creator, he has always been the way, not a new way. This was revealed in his life. Jesus made the way to the Father more clear.

Yes he is the beggining and end...and he is the way....therefore it is a circle.
We were alive in Adams loins when he was one with Gods life....but when he fell by choicing to find life in self...we were still in his loins and as such fell with him....and ate of that fruit of self life wich God had spoken if it was eaten one would die.....
We carry the DNA and self life spirit of Adam in us....we must die or his word is a lie....yet if we die without his life then we are destroyed.
This is the gospel that by trust in Jesus Adam is crucified in christ(self dependance for life dies)and the life of Gods breath becomes the shared life in you...as it was in the beggining.
We are told no man can serve two masters....Gods life and self life can not coexist in us....so we are again told we must lose our life to gain his life.....if we hold to self life we will die
 
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Colter

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Yes he is the beggining and end...and he is the way....therefore it is a circle.
We were alive in Adams loins when he was one with Gods life....but when he fell by choicing to find life in self...we were still in his loins and as such fell with him....and ate of that fruit of self life wich God had spoken if it was eaten one would die.....
We carry the DNA and self life spirit of Adam in us....we must die or his word is a lie....yet if we die without his life then we are destroyed.
This is the gospel that by trust in Jesus Adam is crucified in christ(self dependance for life dies)and the life of Gods breath becomes the shared life in you...as it was in the beggining.
We are told no man can serve two masters....Gods life and self life can not coexist in us....so we are again told we must lose our life to gain his life.....if we hold to self life we will die

Again, I respect your theology. Thanks :)
 
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he-man

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If Christ is the pinnacle of human existence in its most apex form, "that old dragon" is like the pinnacle of serpentine existence. This is a reason why this entity spoke through a serpent - as it is of the root of serpents/reptiles (which are dragons also.)
The usual translation of the Septuagint for , dangerous monster whose bite is poisonous ("dragons' poison") (Deut. xxxii. 33; Ps. xci. 13). Nowhere distinctly described, they must be imagined as of composite form, resembling, according to some passages, the snake. Thus in Ex. vii. 9 (Hebr.) the staff of Moses is turned into a "dragon"; according to Ex. iv. 3 (Hebr.), into a "snake."

Their home is in the water; they are mentioned together with the waves of the sea (Ps. cxlviii. 7), and were created by God with the fishes (Gen. i. 21). Originally they are mythological personifications of the floods (). In the vicinity of Jerusalem a "dragon's spring" was located, in which, according to ancient belief, a dragon lived as the spirit of the well (Neh. ii. 13).

Especially interesting are the passages that speak of a single dragon: the "dragon that is in the sea" (Isa. xxvii. 1); "the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" (Ezek. xxix. 3); or simply "dragon" (Job vii. 12 [Hebr.]; Jer. li. 34; Ps. xliv. 19, read ). Such a dragon is also referred to as "Rahab" (Isa. li. 9 et seq.). Leviathan () probably also means a dragon of this kind (compare Isa. xxvii. 1).

Sometimes considerable information is given ofthese monsters. "In the beginning of things Yhwh overpowered them in creating the world." It is clear that this story, which is found only in fragments in the O. T., was originally a myth, representing God's victory over the seas (; Isa. li. 9 et seq.), or the hemming in of the Nile (Ezek. xxix. 3). The Babylonian story of Marduk's victory over the dragon of the sea, Tiamat, is analogous; but other traditions, especially those of Egypt, may also have influenced the story. The Hebrew poets and Prophets were fond of using this old myth to symbolize the destruction of Israel's enemies.

In post-canonical times also similar traditions are often referred to. Psalms of Solomon (ii.) describe, under the image of a dragon, Pompey's greatness and fall; Apocr. Esther (i. 4 et seq.) describes the conflict between Haman and Mordecai as a battle between two dragons; the legend of Bel and the Dragon, a reproduction of the old Marduk monster, in the Septuagint version of Daniel, narrates how the prophet made cakes of pitch and put them in the dragon's mouth, with the result that the "dragon burst in sunder."

Especially important is the mystical story of the persecution of the divine child and its heavenly mother by the great red dragon (Test. Job xii.). In its present form the story is explained as referring to the attacks of the devil on the Messiah, but it is based on an old Oriental myth of the enmity of the dragon for the child of the sun.Bibliography: Gunkel, Schöpfung and Chaos
 
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Mark51

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The night before his death, Jesus three times warned his disciples about a god, calling him “the ruler of this world.” Jesus said this powerful ruler, or god, “will be cast out.”-John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11.

This entity is none other than the rebel angel, Satan the Devil. This is apparent because the Bible explains that when Satan tempted Jesus, Satan showed him “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matthew 4:8, 9) This offer would not have been a temptation at all if Satan had been offering Jesus what Satan did not possess.-1 John 5:19.

Recall that Jesus promised: “The ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John 12:31) In fact, this world, or system of things, along with its ruler, will be removed, as foretold by the apostle John when he stated: “The world is passing away.” However, John added: “He that does the will of God remains forever.”-1 John 2:17.
 
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he-man

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The night before his death, Jesus three times warned his disciples about a god, calling him “the ruler of this world.” Jesus said this powerful ruler, or god, “will be cast out.”-John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11. This entity is none other than the rebel angel, Satan the Devil. This is apparent because the Bible explains that when Satan tempted Jesus, Satan showed him “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matthew 4:8, 9) This offer would not have been a temptation at all if Satan had been offering Jesus what Satan did not possess.-1 John 5:19.
Well, you forgot the next verse when Jesus explained who he was talking about!
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out: 32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
Joh 16:7 But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you.
And so he foretold what was going to happen to the prince of this world: Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end.
[KJV]
 
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he-man

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The night before his death, Jesus three times warned his disciples about a god, calling him “the ruler of this world.” Jesus said this powerful ruler, or god, “will be cast out.”-John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11.
Proverbs 14:12 (NIV) There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.
Well, you forgot the next verse when Jesus explained who he was talking about!
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out: 32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
Joh 16:7 But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you.
And so he foretold what was going to happen to the prince of this world: Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end.
[KJV]
 
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lutherangerman

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I believe that there are angelic thrones for many forces that govern the universe. For example, the archangel Raphael and his throne govern medicine and healing. Like that, the throne of satan governs enmity but there are always evil angels who want to sit on that throne. I guess sometimes good angels also sat on it but there was much competition and fighting. If we are humble and loving like Jesus, we can throw the evil angels from such thrones with Abba's help. But essentially the throne itself must remain because else nature would go mad and the carnivores could not find their prey anymore as animals too plead for God to help them. Basically, we are approaching a time when there cannot be enmity anymore and when nature will change drastically into being more bountiful and more peaceful. But until then the problems with satanic angels who want power remain.
 
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Imagican

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I would offer that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone who does not believe that the Devil exists to offer a reasonable explanation as to WHO or WHAT the Devil IS.

Why someone would choose to ignore ALL that the Bible offers concerning the Devil is BEYOND me. But it's obvious that someone would have to WANT to ignore all the information we've been offered and form their OWN 'religion' in order to eliminate the Devil.

The Bible doesn't JUST MENTION the Devil. It often gives intimate detail of this entity. The entire book of Job speaks of an actual meeting between God and this ENTITY. The book of revelation speaks VOLUMES concerning the entity of Satan. The word does NOT mean 'merely an adversary'. It is capitalized as a PROPER NOUN. It is DESCRIBED as a specific ENTITY. Satan, the Devil, that 'Serpent of Old'. The obviousness is that these are ONE and the SAME entity. That offers that the Bible CLEARLY represents this particular adversary as being a particular ENTITY.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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he-man

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Why someone would choose to ignore ALL that the Bible offers concerning the Devil is BEYOND me. But it's obvious that someone would have to WANT to ignore all the information we've been offered and form their OWN 'religion' in order to eliminate the Devil. The Bible doesn't JUST MENTION the Devil. It often gives intimate detail of this entity. MEC
Proverbs 3:7 (NIV) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil. THE DEVIL A BIBLICAL EXPOSITION OF THE TRUTH; Sherwood & Co., 23 Paternoster Row, London
It is from this cause that such diversities of opinions prevail among professed followers of Christ; an evil, not to be remedied, as the Romanists would remedy it, by squeezing all men’s minds into one universal square, impudently called “the mind of the church”; or, as Milton describes the patent uniforming process, “starching them into the stiffness of uniformity by tradition.”
THE DEVIL 1 Timothy 3v 11. The phrase, not slanderers, is, in the original, me diaboloi, not devils-that is.
As a consequence of being guided by his rule, it will be essential to throw behind us, and, as far as possible, to banish from our thoughts, all the various notions that have been instilled into our minds regarding the existence of a personal immortal Devil by means of stories, pictures, and even by that delightful writer, Bunyan, and by that stupendous-minded poet, Milton. The descriptions, however beautiful, and the notions thence derived, however strong, must be to us, as inquirers after truth, as though they were not.
For it is a principle that all who study the Scriptures regarding them as the product, through human agency, of divine wisdom, must allow, that divine wisdom would never employ two distinct words if one correctly conveyed the meaning. All arguments, therefore, in relation to the Devil, as derived from the passages referred to, would be fallacious, because the Devil is not referred to therein.
These seventy-seven passages can therefore be dismissed for the present, while we consider the remaining passages in which a different word translated “devil” occurs, and from them must be learned what is taught concerning the Devil of Scripture. What, then, is the word rendered “devil” ? It is diabolos. What does this mean? It is derived from diaballo, this itself being compounded or made up, of two words, dia - through, and ballo - to strike, to pierce (as with an arrow): diaballo, therefore, signifies to pierce through: and as, when a man’s character is attacked by the false charges of another, his character is pierced through, this word diaballo means also to calumniate, which is to pierce through with the darts of calumny. And, as the idea of this calumny implies that the accusations are false, the term diabolos means false-accuser, a calumniator. The proper meaning of the word diabolos, is, therefore, false-accuser, calumniator; the improper meaning is “devil” - this improper interpretation having been first given by the translators of the Scriptures into Greek; a rendering Leigh remarks, “nowhere else sampled (i.e., so used) in any Greek author.” The derivation of this word thus proves that false-accuser, calumniator, is the correct translation.
For of our Lord it is written, “All things were made by Him.” Whoever therefore believes that anything can be made, or that any creature can be changed to better or worse, or transformed into another species or likeness, except by God Himself who made everything and through whom all things were made, is beyond a doubt an infidel.’
Charles Lea, ‘A History of the Inquisition In Spain’, volume 4, book 8, chapter 9, page 209
http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/christianity-and-the-witch-hunt-era-37/
After the memorable confession to Christ by Peter, “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” Jesus began to “show unto his disciples how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan,” Matt. 16v 16, 21-23.
“Satan” here is undoubtedly applied to a human being, namely, Peter: and Christ says to him, “Get thee back behind me, adversary:” and the reason given shows that in applying the term to Peter it was to him, not as representing any supernatural being, but as representing a man opposing the course which the Saviour had marked out: “Thou art an offence (a cause of stumbling) to me, for thou savourest not, the things that be of God, but those that be of men,” v. 23. He does not say, “Thou savourest the things that be of invisible spirits.”
Here, then, let it be repeated, is a passage from the New Testament where there cannot exist the slightest doubt that satan is applied to a man, and that man a disciple of the Lord; one to whom the honour was allotted of opening the kingdom of heaven by being the first to proclaim the gospel - to Peter. Here, then, is a human being a satan: in what respect was Peter “Satan”? In what character but this? That he placed himself in opposition to the noble determination of Christ to endure trials for the sake of suffering humanity - in other words, “to go to Jerusalem to suffer many things.” Peter tried, most likely from a motive of kindness, just as one kind friend would try and persuade another not to go into danger., to prevent his Lord exposing himself. He was an. adversary to Christ in reference to his determination: and the all-knowing Lord, knowing that Peter’s regard had its real root in selfishness, addresses him, “Get thee behind me, adversary.”
SATAN, therefore, both in the Old and New Testament, means an adversary.
Mk 5:15 And they came out to Jesus, and they saw him that was vexed with the fiend and had the legion, sit both clothed and in his right mind, and were afraid. Lk 8:29 Then he commanded the foul spirit to come out of the man. For often times he caught him, and he was bound with chains, and kept with fetters: and he brake the bonds, and was carried of the fiend, into wilderness. THE NEW TESTAMENT W TYNDALE Bible
In the Muslem language it means "TRICKSTER".
 
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he-man

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I would offer that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for someone who does not believe that the Devil exists to offer a reasonable explanation as to WHO or WHAT the Devil IS.

Why someone would choose to ignore ALL that the Bible offers concerning the Devil is BEYOND me. But it's obvious that someone would have to WANT to ignore all the information we've been offered and form their OWN 'religion' in order to eliminate the Devil.

The Bible doesn't JUST MENTION the Devil. It often gives intimate detail of this entity. The entire book of Job speaks of an actual meeting between God and this ENTITY. The book of revelation speaks VOLUMES concerning the entity of Satan. The word does NOT mean 'merely an adversary'. It is capitalized as a PROPER NOUN. It is DESCRIBED as a specific ENTITY. Satan, the Devil, that 'Serpent of Old'. The obviousness is that these are ONE and the SAME entity. That offers that the Bible CLEARLY represents this particular adversary as being a particular ENTITY.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
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I believe that there are angelic thrones for many forces that govern the universe. For example, the archangel Raphael and his throne govern medicine and healing. Like that, the throne of satan governs enmity but there are always evil angels who want to sit on that throne. I guess sometimes good angels also sat on it but there was much competition and fighting. If we are humble and loving like Jesus, we can throw the evil angels from such thrones with Abba's help. But essentially the throne itself must remain because else nature would go mad and the carnivores could not find their prey anymore as animals too plead for God to help them. Basically, we are approaching a time when there cannot be enmity anymore and when nature will change drastically into being more bountiful and more peaceful. But until then the problems with satanic angels who want power remain.
In the Muslem language Satan means "TRICKSTER". Like Obama has tricked the USA into believing he is a Christian, when he still shows by his actions that he holds the Islamic radical Moslem views.
 
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