who or what is the Devil, Satan, that old serpent, the great dragon?

he-man

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In the Bible Greek manuscripts, according to my reading . . . "o theos" usually means "the God". The thing is that "theos" is not capitalized in the Greek Bible, because it is not a proper name; so it is not capitalized, even when referring to our Heavenly Father. But in English we capitalize "God" and use it as a proper name for Him.
Also, there is one place that I know of, where "o theos" is used for other than God > in 2 Corinthians 4:4 our Apostle Paul talks about how "the god of this age" "has blinded" the "minds" of unbelievers. Here "the god" is "o theos", in the Greek Bible manuscript, but I think it is clear that this means Satan, who "has blinded" people's "minds".
The problem can be illustrated from the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Greek word for "God," theos, in the pagan, polytheistic Greek context, meant one of the "gods" of the Greek pantheon. No word in Greek perfectly meshed with the Old Testament teaching about the one true God. When the Old Testament was originally translated from Hebrew to Greek, the translators had to decide what was the best rendering within the constraints of Greek vocabulary.

Nomina sacra [such as used in 2Co 4:4 for "God,"] are special abbreviations which appear in New Testament texts. Unlike most abbreviations, which are meant to save time (see Abbreviations in P46), nomina sacra are used to set certain, holy words apart from the rest of the text. This is clear from the fact that these words are abbreviated in their sacral usages but not in profane usages 'son' is contracted to when it refers to Jesus, the Son of God, but the same word is not contracted in other usages).
Because the last letter or two is retained, the grammatical case of the word is clear www.lib.umich.edu/pap/k12/reading/Paul/nominasacra.html
The early use of "nomina sacra" indicates a canon was recognized
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Just click on my new Avatar picture above to see the enlarged view of the Nomina Sacra

UnicalsThere are four kinds of Greek witnesses: papyri, uncials (or majuscules), minuscules (or cursives), and lectionaries. The first three are important enough to warrant some discussion here.

Papyri
These documents are written on the cheap writing materials of the ancient world that were roughly equivalent to modern paper. Literally thousands of papyrus fragments have been found of which approximately 100 contain portions of the New Testament. Actually, taken together, these 100 fragments constitute over half of the New Testament and all but four are in the form of codices (i.e., four are scrolls rather than the book-form [codex]).

All NT papyri were written with uncial or capital letters. They range in date from the early second century through the eighth century. About 50 of them are to be dated before the fourth century. Though many of them are somewhat fragmentary, and at times the copying was looser than one would like (i.e., they were done before the canon was officially recognized), they are nevertheless extremely important for establishing the text of the New Testament—if for no other reason than the fact that they represent some of the most ancient witnesses we possess. Six important papyri are illustrated in the chart below.

I find it interesting to note that the ones I have been quoting from are described as The most important uncials.

Uncials
There are approximately 300 uncials known to exist today that contain portions of the New Testament and one uncial that contains the entire NT. Like the papyri, these manuscripts were written with uncial or capital letters, but unlike the papyri they were written on animal skins or vellum.

For the most part they are beautiful manuscripts, elegantly written and routinely done in scriptoria and often for special purposes. Generally speaking, they range in date from the fourth through the ninth centuries. Our oldest complete copy of the NT is an uncial manuscript, Í (see chart below). The symbol for each uncial is either a capital letter (in Latin or Greek letters [though one ms has a Hebrew letter, Í]) or a number beginning with 0 (e.g., 01, 0220, etc.). The most important uncials cited in the NET NT footnotes are as follows:
Sinaiticus
4th century The entire NT
Alexandrian; best in epistles

Alexandrinus
5th century
Most of the NT
Important in the Epistles and Revelation

Vaticanus
4th century Most of NT except Hebrews 9:14ff, the Pastorals, Phlm, Rev
Alexandrian; best in Gospels

Ephraemi
Rescriptus
5th century
Portions of every book except 2 Thess and 2 John
mixed

Bezae/
Cantabrigiensis
5th century
Gospels and Acts
Western

Claromontanus
6th century
Pauline Epistles and Hebrews
Western

Augiensis
9th century
Pauline Epistles
Western

Boernerianus
9th century
Pauline Epistles
Western

Regius
8th century
Gospels
Often agrees with Vaticanus

Washingtonianus
early 5th century
Gospels

P45
Chester Beatty papyrus
3rd century AD
Gospels, Acts 4-17
Mark (Caesarean); Matt, Luke, John (intermediate between Alexandrian and Western texttypes)

P46
Chester Beatty papyrus
ca. AD 200
10 Pauline Epistles (all but Pastorals) and Hebrews
Overall closer to Alexandrian than Western

P47
Chester Beatty papyrus
3rd century AD
Revelation 9:10-17:2
Alexandrian; often agrees with Sinaiticus (Í)

P66
Bodmer Papyrus
ca. AD 200
John
Mixed text between Western and Alexandrian

P75
Bodmer papyrus
early 3rd century
Luke and John
Alexandrian, often agrees with B

Codex Vaticanus (B), since 1481, at least, the chief treasure of the Vatican Library, and universally esteemed to be the oldest and best manuscript of the Greek New Testament; 4th century. In the Gospels the divisions are of an earlier date than in Codex Sinaiticus.

Codex Sinaiticus found by Tischendorf at Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai and now in the British Library of London; 4th century. This is the only uncial which contains the New Testament entire. It also has the Epistle of Barnabas and part of the Shepherd of Hermas and possibly originally the Didache.

Probably the earliest system of chapter divisions is preserved in Codex Vaticanus, coming down to us from Alexandria probably by way of Caesarea.

James Barr's book The Semantics of Biblical Language and D. A. Carson's book Exegetical Fallacies are excellent texts operating on this level.
 
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Vanguard PCD

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Plus - - in 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul says, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." And, in Isaiah 14:12 we see what Isaiah says to "Lucifer, son of the morning". By the way . . . ones say "Lucifer" can mean "day star". So - - if Lucifer can give off some kind of light, by being a "day star" - - this, for me, fits with how Satan "transforms himself into an angel of light". I see they can mean the same one. And, "of course", Satan's "light" is false - - not the light of God's love.

Plus, it says Lucifer is "fallen from heaven" >

Jesus says, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," in Luke 10:18.

So . . . again . . . I can see that Lucifer and Satan are the same one who has "fallen from heaven".

The only problem with people continuing to perpetrate this idea that Lucifer is another name for Satan is that they are mistaken in doing so, plain and simple. Satan is not a name, it is a title. It is a Hebrew term that means adversary. If you knew Hebrew you would agree.

Lucifer is taken from the Greek heosphorus, and it is simply a reference to the morning star, i.e. the planet Venus, which can be see at dawn.

Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 14, not just a single verse. That whole chapter is referring to a fallen Babylonian king. It was not Satan, a demon, a demi-god or anything supernatural...it was a man. As a matter of fact, go study Hebrew history and pay close attention to the era of Babylonian captivity and you'll see why they hate that king so much.

People ALWAYS erroneously link Luke 10:18 to Isaiah 14:12. The word "fall" is used in both verses, so they absolutely MUST be talking about the same being, right? Wrong.

Isaiah is merely mocking that fallen king. He was knocked off his high horse in death. That's it.
 
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DennisTate

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2 Corinthians 4:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Note the use of the SMALL 'g' in god. The 'god of THIS WORLD' is NOT the Father of Christ. The 'god of this world' is Satan, the devil, that old serpent, great dragon. For this world does NOT follow God, but the 'god of this world'. And the 'god of this world' has many 'angels' that do his bidding. I call them DEMONS.

So, WHO IS this 'god of this world'?

Blessings,

MEC

Christian near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby was given some fascinating details about the fall of the former Covering Cherub Lucifer that is helpful to understand to book of Genesis as well as what is happening at this time all over the world.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7715259/

NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.
I was impressed with the explanation given for the fall of Lucifer which would quite possibly fit with an earth that may well be 4.5 billion years old.

Apparently a lot happened between the original creation of the earth and the time when the repairing of the earth was made necessary due to an attempted coup d'etat by Lucifer and the angels who decided to follow him!!


.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/91.html

Dr. Richard Eby:
......
"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)
 
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he-man

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As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)
[/INDENT]
Nomina sacra [such as used in 2Co 4:4 for "God,"] are special abbreviations which appear in New Testament texts. Unlike most abbreviations, which are meant to save time (see Abbreviations in P46), nomina sacra are used to set certain, holy words apart from the rest of the text. This is clear from the fact that these words are abbreviated in their sacral usages but not in profane usages 'son' is contracted to when it refers to Jesus, the Son of God, but the same word is not contracted in other usages).
Because the last letter or two is retained, the grammatical case of the word is clear http://www.lib.umich.edu/pap/k12/rea...minasacra.html
The early use of "nomina sacra" indicates a canon was recognized
SkyPoint Communications - Internet Service Provider - ISP - Minnesota

Just click on my new Avatar picture above to see the enlarged view of the Nomina Sacra
 
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rick357

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Christian near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby was given some fascinating details about the fall of the former Covering Cherub Lucifer that is helpful to understand to book of Genesis as well as what is happening at this time all over the world.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7715259/

NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.
I was impressed with the explanation given for the fall of Lucifer which would quite possibly fit with an earth that may well be 4.5 billion years old.

Apparently a lot happened between the original creation of the earth and the time when the repairing of the earth was made necessary due to an attempted coup d'etat by Lucifer and the angels who decided to follow him!!

.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/91.html

Dr. Richard Eby:
......
"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)

The problem dennis is this account lends itself to a understanding that while widely accepted is not scriptural....there was no imperfection in the creation before Adam fell....so the idea of preadimic fall is unscriptual and makes YHWH a false witness...which he is not.
Second the serpent would be under the dominian of Adam not some other being....take note of his curse it is individual to him and his kind....then eves also to her and her kind....but Adam to him the very earth is cursed for his sake.
This is the word for dominion wich YHWH gave to Adam
h1. H7287

Original: *רדה*

Transliteration: *râdâh*

Phonetic: *raw-daw'*

*BDB Definition*:

# to rule, have dominion, dominate, tread down
## (Qal) to have dominion, rule, subjugate
## (Hiphil) to cause to dominate
# to scrape out
## (Qal) to scrape, scrape out

Origin: a primitive root

TWOT entry: 2121,2122

Part(s) of speech: Verb

*Strong's Definition*: A primitive root; to _tread_ down, that is, _subjugate_ ; specifically to _crumble_ off: - (come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule, (-r, over), take.

Does that sound like the serpent could be ruled by some spirit being without making Gods decree false.
In the description of lucifer 14:16 he is clearly called a man
As to the desciption of music being in him...this refers to ezekial and again look at the description given it speaks of eden covering and perfection and then a fall....also that men shall see him return to dust or ashes....what heavenly angle was ever made of dust....
Satan is not an angle....lucifer(and satan) is a desciption not a name....this is Adam who is the father of our flesh nature and so the death he took has passed to us
The flesh is enmity with God....so who will reign in us Adams flesh...or Jesus Spirit....
 
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Colter

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* The beast was already evil, already working against the will of God and the mission of Adam & Eve.

* The earth was already populated as we can see in the Genesis narrative where Cain is afraid of people out in the world. But he does leave and finds a wife among the Nodites.

* Archeology and radiometric dateing reveals that the earth and the life on it is much older than the Hebrew story of creation.

* Death is normal, archeology reveals death of men has been on the earth for hundreds of thousands of years.

* Yahweh is the author of spiritual truth in our hearts, the OT books were written in Babylon. All the secular history books of the Jews are gone.
 
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CryOfALion

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2 Corinthians 4:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Note the use of the SMALL 'g' in god. The 'god of THIS WORLD' is NOT the Father of Christ. The 'god of this world' is Satan, the devil, that old serpent, great dragon. For this world does NOT follow God, but the 'god of this world'. And the 'god of this world' has many 'angels' that do his bidding. I call them DEMONS.

So, WHO IS this 'god of this world'?

Blessings,

MEC

If Christ is the pinnacle of human existence in its most apex form, "that old dragon" is like the pinnacle of serpentine existence. This is a reason why this entity spoke through a serpent - as it is of the root of serpents/reptiles (which are dragons also.) Also, the dragon was a Seraphim, which means "burning." What does snake venom do when it enters your veins? What is the mythical dragon most famous for besides flying? That is why I think God cursed this entities entire root - the serpents - and made them to tred on their bellies, and eat dust. One more philosophical connection to the serpents and the "old" dragon (leader) is that even when killed, they instinctively deliver one last "kill shot" blow - or try to. Think of how Christ "bruised the head" of the entire campaign of that old dragon/serpent, and how even now that the war is won through Christ, this entity is still trying to deliver a killing blow to our souls - that one last hit.

That is also why (I think) it is stressed this entity's wrothfulness when it is finally kicked down to lowly earth. It will have truly set in for the deceptive once-angelic creature, and it will know it has lost, and only has a very short time to do as much damage as possible. Daniel 11 says [the spirit of] this entity will already have knowledge of who holds and breaks the holy covenant: I certainly believe it will go for those who keep it, and flatter those who forsake it.
 
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rick357

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* The beast was already evil, already working against the will of God and the mission of Adam & Eve.

* The earth was already populated as we can see in the Genesis narrative where Cain is afraid of people out in the world. But he does leave and finds a wife among the Nodites.

* Archeology and radiometric dateing reveals that the earth and the life on it is much older than the Hebrew story of creation.

* Death is normal, archeology reveals death of men has been on the earth for hundreds of thousands of years.

* Yahweh is the author of spiritual truth in our hearts, the OT books were written in Babylon. All the secular history books of the Jews are gone.

Most of your above points have no scripture referance...the few that do make assumption the truth....then in the end you conclude them as non issues since it is not a factual account..
While at the same time making every quote and allusion to OT by Jesus and the apostles as a deception and falsity....
This is what Paul calls a differant gospel and a differant Jesus.
 
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he-man

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If Christ is the pinnacle of human existence in its most apex form, "that old dragon" is like the pinnacle of serpentine existence. This is a reason why this entity spoke through a serpent - as it is of the root of serpents/reptiles (which are dragons also.) Also, the dragon was a Seraphim, which means "burning." That is also why (I think) it is stressed this entity's wrothfulness when it is finally kicked down to lowly earth.
It had nothing to do with an angel, good or bad.
You do not know Hebrew: in all which the Revised Version renders the Hebrew tziph'oni by "basilisk"). צפע nm. viper (snake) , basilisk

In Proverbs 23:32 the Hebrew tzeph'a is rendered both in the Authorized Version and the Revised Version by "adder;" margin of Revised Version "basilisk," and of Authorized Version "cockatrice." Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Third Edition, published by Thomas Nelson, 1897
Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Cockatrice
COCKATRICE kok'-a-tris, kok'-a-tris (tsepha`; tsph`oni; Septuagint, basiliskos, "basilisk" (which see), and aspis, "asp" (see ADDER; ASP; SERPENT))

Jer 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, [H6848 צפע nm. viper (snake) , basilisk ] among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.
Megalotheander’s Bible has, “He shall put his hand on the hole of the basilisk. ”
I will send serpents - These were symbols of the enemies that were coming against them; a foe that would rather slay them and destroy the land than get booty and ransom. [CLARKE] The invading army is now compared to snakes, whom no charming can soothe, and whose bite is fatal. [BARNES]
bio.sunyorange.edu/updated2/creationism/​CREATIONISM/creation%20
www.archive.org/stream/​unnaturalhistor00schogoog​/unnaturalhistor00

The term basilisk was not unknown to the most ancient writers of heathendom, a fact which becomes clear from an inspection of the works of Pliny, Solinus, Lucan, Dioscoris, Galen, and others.

We have first of all to touch on the etymology of the word. The term basilisk arose in Greece, came into constant use in Latium, and remained among the Teutonic peoples. "Basilisk" is a diminutive from "basileus" (king), which is so termed from the king being the "basis" of the nation.
This extremely poisonous serpent, therefore, gets its name of basilisk, or regulus,

John Eusebius, a Jesuit, born at Nuremberg, and who became Professor of Physiology in the Academy of Madrid, is the author quoted. The passage occurs in the sixth book of his Hhtor'ia Natur. folio 102.
We proceed to give a list of different meanings of the word. The trochilus or regulus (in Greek Βασιλισκος).
Myths of ancient science on the basilisk, University of Toronto

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches.
 
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Colter

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Most of your above points have no scripture referance...the few that do make assumption the truth....then in the end you conclude them as non issues since it is not a factual account..
While at the same time making every quote and allusion to OT by Jesus and the apostles as a deception and falsity....
This is what Paul calls a differant gospel and a differant Jesus.

You should know Genesis.

Paul himself taught a different gospel about --->Christ crucified and risen. 3 years before the cross Jesus taught the gospel of "the kingdom of heaven" so Paul's personal opinions are no different than any other preacher, he Just happen to be the first great charismatic missionary that took the message to the Pagan world who held him in great esteem. When the church at Rome converted Paul's ordinary letters into "the Word of God" his words came to carry equal weight to Jesus words.
 
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Der Alte

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You should know Genesis.

Paul himself taught a different gospel about --->Christ crucified and risen. 3 years before the cross Jesus taught the gospel of "the kingdom of heaven" so Paul's personal opinions are no different than any other preacher, he Just happen to be the first great charismatic missionary that took the message to the Pagan world who held him in great esteem. When the church at Rome converted Paul's ordinary letters into "the Word of God" his words came to carry equal weight to Jesus words.

More Paul bashing with No! Zero! None! evidence! More meaningless accusations that Rome perverted the scriptures. There was no church in Rome with a Pope in charge until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped control over the church. If you want some truth look up Gregory VII and the 27 Dictatus Papae, papal dictates. Most of the NT can be recreated from the citations in the early church fathers between 100 and 300 AD.
 
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Colter

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More Paul bashing with No! Zero! None! evidence! More meaningless accusations that Rome perverted the scriptures. There was no church in Rome with a Pope in charge until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped control over the church. If you want some truth look up Gregory VII and the 27 Dictatus Papae, papal dictates. Most of the NT can be recreated from the citations in the early church fathers between 100 and 300 AD.

The proof is in the gospels themselves right before your eyes.

3+ years before Paul's cross and risen Christ -gospel Jesus was teaching HIS own Gospel, it was not about the cross and resurrection:

Matthew 4:23

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people."



Paul's gospel about the cross:

2 Timothy 2:8


8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
 
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Der Alte

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The proof is in the gospels themselves right before your eyes.

3+ years before Paul's cross and risen Christ -gospel Jesus was teaching HIS own Gospel, it was not about the cross and resurrection:

Matthew 4:23

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people."

Paul's gospel about the cross:

2 Timothy 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

There is no "proof!" One out-of-context verse does not prove anything except that you are out to bash Paul no matter what. Take a look at these 10 verses. There are many more.

Act 20:24 the gospel of the grace of God.
Rom 1:1 the gospel of God,
Rom 1:9 For God ...the gospel of his Son,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
Rom 15:16 ministering the gospel of God,
Rom 15:19 I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Rom 15:29 the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:12 lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:18 the gospel of Christ
2Co 2:12 I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel,
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,
2Ti 1:8 the gospel according to the power of God;​

This is Paul's gospel.
 
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DennisTate

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The problem dennis is this account lends itself to a understanding that while widely accepted is not scriptural....there was no imperfection in the creation before Adam fell....so the idea of preadimic fall is unscriptual and makes YHWH a false witness...which he is not.
Second the serpent would be under the dominian of Adam not some other being....take note of his curse it is individual to him and his kind....then eves also to her and her kind....but Adam to him the very earth is cursed for his sake.
This is the word for dominion wich YHWH gave to Adam
h1. H7287

Original: *רדה*

Transliteration: *râdâh*

Phonetic: *raw-daw'*

*BDB Definition*:

# to rule, have dominion, dominate, tread down
## (Qal) to have dominion, rule, subjugate
## (Hiphil) to cause to dominate
# to scrape out
## (Qal) to scrape, scrape out

Origin: a primitive root

TWOT entry: 2121,2122

Part(s) of speech: Verb

*Strong's Definition*: A primitive root; to _tread_ down, that is, _subjugate_ ; specifically to _crumble_ off: - (come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule, (-r, over), take.

Does that sound like the serpent could be ruled by some spirit being without making Gods decree false.
In the description of lucifer 14:16 he is clearly called a man
As to the desciption of music being in him...this refers to ezekial and again look at the description given it speaks of eden covering and perfection and then a fall....also that men shall see him return to dust or ashes....what heavenly angle was ever made of dust....
Satan is not an angle....lucifer(and satan) is a desciption not a name....this is Adam who is the father of our flesh nature and so the death he took has passed to us
The flesh is enmity with God....so who will reign in us Adams flesh...or Jesus Spirit....

If no angel had ever "fallen", at least to some degree, previous to the creation of Adam and Eve......… and since God does not tempt either angels or humans to sin.......... then how could Adam and Eve face temptation to sin...… unless it comes from a somewhat "fallen" angel/ Covering Cherub?


James 1:13
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"
 
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Colter

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There is no "proof!" One out-of-context verse does not prove anything except that you are out to bash Paul no matter what. Take a look at these 10 verses. There are many more.

Act 20:24 the gospel of the grace of God.
Rom 1:1 the gospel of God,
Rom 1:9 For God ...the gospel of his Son,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
Rom 15:16 ministering the gospel of God,
Rom 15:19 I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Rom 15:29 the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:12 lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:18 the gospel of Christ
2Co 2:12 I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel,
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,
2Ti 1:8 the gospel according to the power of God;​

This is Paul's gospel.

Jesus had a gospel, it wasn't about himself crucified and risen as Christ because the cross had not happened yet.

Everything changed after the ascension
 
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rick357

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You should know Genesis.

Paul himself taught a different gospel about --->Christ crucified and risen. 3 years before the cross Jesus taught the gospel of "the kingdom of heaven" so Paul's personal opinions are no different than any other preacher, he Just happen to be the first great charismatic missionary that took the message to the Pagan world who held him in great esteem. When the church at Rome converted Paul's ordinary letters into "the Word of God" his words came to carry equal weight to Jesus words.

1) how does knowing part of something you claim was written in babylon do anything
2) contrary to your assesment that Christ crucified and risen is Pauls gospel....Jesus in his gospels spoke the same thing...as a matter of fact on one such occasion Peter rebuked him for it...at wich Jesus rebukes Peter saying get behind me satan....yet anouther validation that satan is adam in us not some seperate angelic force....yet in answer to your accusation that the gospel changed....
Jesus came announcing that the reign of God had arrived....then taught that reign was in us not outside of us...then taught the necessaty of a new man(new wineskin,new cloth)that satan cant cast out satan and the strong man must be bound to spoil his goods.....that he must die but those who believe on him will have life....and he is the only way.....this was also preached by Peter at pentacost...so no it was not Pauls invention but the same as Jesus himself taught.
As said before the theology of the bible is circular not linear....it does not bring you from one point to another....but from one point to the same point....Jesus preached the reign of heaven had come.....learning that by trust in what he has done Adam in us is crucified with him and the spirit brings the life of christ in and through us brings us full cicle to the reign of heaven in us.
 
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Der Alte

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There is no "proof!" One out-of-context verse does not prove anything except that you are out to bash Paul no matter what. Take a look at these 10 verses. There are many more.

Act 20:24 the gospel of the grace of God.
Rom 1:1 the gospel of God,
Rom 1:9 For God ...the gospel of his Son,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
Rom 15:16 ministering the gospel of God,
Rom 15:19 I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Rom 15:29 the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:12 lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:18 the gospel of Christ
2Co 2:12 I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel,
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God,
2Ti 1:8 the gospel according to the power of God;​

This is Paul's gospel.

Jesus had a gospel, it wasn't about himself crucified and risen as Christ because the cross had not happened yet.

Everything changed after the ascension

Repeating your unsupported attacks against Paul does not prove them. See my quotes above. It will take more than a few out-of-context verses to prove that the entire church has been wrong for 2000 years

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.​
 
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Colter

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Repeating your unsupported attacks against Paul does not prove them. See my quotes above. It will take more than a few out-of-context verses to prove that the entire church has been wrong for 2000 years

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.​

Jesus had a gospel before the cross ever happened, it was forgiveness by faith. That only requires common sense, he wasn't telling people that they were saved because he was going to be rejected and killed. That's Pagan theology.

Years after Jesus left, the gospels were written. That's AFTER the cross, that's how "take up your cross" found its way into the recollection of what Jesus was purported to have said......even though the cross had not happened.
 
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Colter

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1) how does knowing part of something you claim was written in babylon do anything
2) contrary to your assesment that Christ crucified and risen is Pauls gospel....Jesus in his gospels spoke the same thing...as a matter of fact on one such occasion Peter rebuked him for it...at wich Jesus rebukes Peter saying get behind me satan....yet anouther validation that satan is adam in us not some seperate angelic force....yet in answer to your accusation that the gospel changed....
Jesus came announcing that the reign of God had arrived....then taught that reign was in us not outside of us...then taught the necessaty of a new man(new wineskin,new cloth)that satan cant cast out satan and the strong man must be bound to spoil his goods.....that he must die but those who believe on him will have life....and he is the only way.....this was also preached by Peter at pentacost...so no it was not Pauls invention but the same as Jesus himself taught.
As said before the theology of the bible is circular not linear....it does not bring you from one point to another....but from one point to the same point....Jesus preached the reign of heaven had come.....learning that by trust in what he has done Adam in us is crucified with him and the spirit brings the life of christ in and through us brings us full cicle to the reign of heaven in us.

Jesus taught that God was already forgiving, no human sacrifice required. Yes, Jesus knew about his death, he discussed it.

The apostles did not even know Jesus was leaving, but after Jesus resurrected himself the excitement of his coming back from the dead was the greatest thing they could proclaim. Impulsive Peter now had a new message about Jesus, the risen Christ, soon to return.
 
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