Who Made This Statement re Joseph Smith?

[Hammster]

The more I see what passes for "Christian love" as displayed by critics of the church, the more I want to remain a member of the LDS faith.

So you reject the truth because of perceived bad behavior by some?

 

[smaneck]

I learn more about Mormonism here. I had lots of Dutch mentors as well (e.g. Cornelius Van Til).
Your turn.

You're dating yourself.

Both Francis Schaeffer and Roshdoony were a big fans of his theology and apologetics, weren't they? Makes me wonder what is the connection between him and Christian Reconstructionalism.

Who did you study church history with?

 

[mmksparbud]

Are you asking your questions because you want answers or have you in fact already made up your mind?

Scrutinizing a faith is finr and I would be doing so myself if there weren't so many wolves around ready to pounce on them.

I am finding out as much as I can because my stepdaughter is one. She has gone through changes since becoming one and I am starting to see why. Right now, I doubt she will ever speak to me again as I asked her mother what she thought of these believes as she did a lot of talking about God and scripture so I thought she might have some thoughts about this, but she showed the letter to my stepdaughter and she blew up. The mother did not just come to me and yell at me (she did that, too)--I thought she had changed, but she still loves drama. I have not, nor will I respond to mama again. I prayed about it and Josephs' statement to his brothers after their father died flashed across my mind. "It was meant for evil, but God meant it for good---so maybe my stepdaughter will ask questions, too. Time will tell. I dearly love my stepdaughter. After the answers I have received from the Mormons on here, I am making up my mind now. I've tried to look at things from their point of view, and can not reconcile these things with the bible. I have differences with other denominations, but we all argue over the interpretation of things, this is beyond interpretation, it is basic facts changed--Eden in Missouri, God a man born on another planet--no thanks.
There are some Mormons on here who say that not everything Smith and Young say is doctrinal---that they don't have to believe them, then why be a Mormon?? Smith and Young made up this faith, they claim to have the ear of God, to have the truth, that we are all lost if we do not follow what they teach, and if you do not believe them, what is the point? If I do not want to believe what Christ and the disciples have said, why be Christian?? There have been way too many Mormons on here who seem to not know what their church actually has stated as a basis for their believes. They keep doing the Mexican hat dance around what is clearly stated as their believes and that is just plain not working with me. They have the right to believe whatever they want--as Christians we the right to check out these "spirits" and see if they are of God or not and THEY, not the anti-Mormons--have made up my mind for me now.----NO!!!

 

[drstevej]

You're dating yourself.

Both Francis Schaeffer and Roshdoony were a big fans of his theology and apologetics, weren't they? Makes me wonder what is the connection between him and Christian Reconstructionalism.

Who did you study church history with?

Van Til did not deal with politics much and preceded Schaeffer and Rushdoony and the rise of CR. I had some classmates into that but I hold more of an Anabaptist view of church/state. My dissertation was supervised by Clair Davis and my external examiner was William Estep. My masters study was primarily under John Hannah.

We can continue this by PM if you like so we do not derail.

 

[smaneck]

There are some Mormons on here who say that not everything Smith and Young say is doctrinal---that they don't have to believe them, then why be a Mormon??

Just because not everything Smith and Young say is not doctrinal does not mean nothing they say is. They have four canonical texts. What every Mormon is supposed to believe is contained in those texts.

 

[smaneck]

Van Til did not deal with politics much and preceded Schaeffer and Rushdoony and the rise of CR. I had some classmates into that but I hold more of an Anabaptist view of church/state. My dissertation was supervised by Clair Davis and my external examiner was William Estep. My masters study was primarily under John Hannah.

We can continue this by PM if you like so we do not derail.

William Esteps, I know him! Had a long and very fruitful dialogue with him on a plane ride years ago when we were both returning from a conference. He's the one who first told me about CR and just how dangerous it was. I thought his last book Revolution Within the Revolution: The First Amendment in Historical Context was phenomenal.

 

[drstevej]

William Esteps, I know him! Had a long and very fruitful dialogue with him on a plane ride years ago when we were both returning from a conference. He's the one who first told me about CR and just how dangerous it was. I thought his last book Revolution Within the Revolution: The First Amendment in Historical Context was phenomenal.

I spent a semester with him (SWBTS) since my dissertation dealt with Anabaptist / English Baptist connections. He was a gracious man and an excellent author. (Small world)

 

[mmksparbud]

Just because not everything Smith and Young say is not doctrinal does not mean nothing they say is. They have four canonical texts. What every Mormon is supposed to believe is contained in those texts.

Wait a minute--these are not guys writing a little book about how to pray or something like that---these guys made up this religion--they came up with these notions and they were the leaders of the church, they claimed their revelations were from God, no maybe about it. They were the faith. So now, since they are dead and can no longer speak, that is no longer true?? Young stated his truth about this blasphemous garden of Eden, conception of Christ thing is doctrinal--and it means salvation or damnation--so the leader of the church makes such a statement and now, it is no longer doctrinal? Are you saying that the BOM is no longer doctrinal and what is in there is no longer valid??? This is more of this yes/no thing that drives me nuts---who now decides what the church actually believes? So we have to go through all these books to find out what they believe?--They just can't say we believe God was a man on another planet before he was god? I mean you can go to just about any official website and of any denomination and their believes will be easy to find out--not so with Mormons--you can't pin them down on much. Why? Somebody just give me a list of their doctrines!!! Darn it--it's like a national security issue or something!! Do they have as much trouble finding out what is doctrinal as we do?

 

[smaneck]

Wait a minute--these are not guys writing a little book about how to pray or something like that---these guys made up this religion--they came up with these notions and they were the leaders of the church, they claimed their revelations were from God, no maybe about it.

You seem unable to distinguish between the office they were claiming and their persons. I would agree that anything they claimed was revealed to them from God would constitute doctrine but my understanding is that those revelations are all contained within the Mormon canonical texts.

They were the faith. So now, since they are dead and can no longer speak, that is no longer true?? Young stated his truth about this blasphemous garden of Eden, conception of Christ thing is doctrinal--and it means salvation or damnation--so the leader of the church makes such a statement and now, it is no longer doctrinal?

I'm saying if it is doctrinal then it should be found in one of their four canonical texts.

Are you saying that the BOM is no longer doctrinal and what is in there is no longer valid???

The Book of Mormon is a canonical text. I believe Doctrines and Covenants are as well.

This is more of this yes/no thing that drives me nuts---who now decides what the church actually believes?

The four canonical Mormon texts?

So we have to go through all these books to find out what they believe?--They just can't say we believe God was a man on another planet before he was god?

You can always ask them what they believe. Instead you'd rather go to non-canonical sources and tell the Mormons what they believe.

I mean you can go to just about any official website and of any denomination and their believes will be easy to find out--not so with Mormons--you can't pin them down on much. Why? Somebody just give me a list of their doctrines!!!

They are right here, if you want to know what they believe all you have to do is ask. Instead everyone seems determined to tell the Mormons what they believe.

 

[fatboys]

Wait a minute--these are not guys writing a little book about how to pray or something like that---these guys made up this religion--they came up with these notions and they were the leaders of the church, they claimed their revelations were from God, no maybe about it. They were the faith. So now, since they are dead and can no longer speak, that is no longer true?? Young stated his truth about this blasphemous garden of Eden, conception of Christ thing is doctrinal--and it means salvation or damnation--so the leader of the church makes such a statement and now, it is no longer doctrinal? Are you saying that the BOM is no longer doctrinal and what is in there is no longer valid??? This is more of this yes/no thing that drives me nuts---who now decides what the church actually believes? So we have to go through all these books to find out what they believe?--They just can't say we believe God was a man on another planet before he was god? I mean you can go to just about any official website and of any denomination and their believes will be easy to find out--not so with Mormons--you can't pin them down on much. Why? Somebody just give me a list of their doctrines!!! Darn it--it's like a national security issue or something!! Do they have as much trouble finding out what is doctrinal as we do?

Ask me a question and I will answer it.

 

[mmksparbud]

You seem unable to distinguish between the office they were claiming and their persons. I would agree that anything they claimed was revealed to them from God would constitute doctrine but my understanding is that those revelations are all contained within the Mormon canonical texts.



I'm saying if it is doctrinal then it should be found in one of their four canonical texts.



The Book of Mormon is a canonical text. I believe Doctrines and Covenants are as well.



The four canonical Mormon texts?



You can always ask them what they believe. Instead you'd rather go to non-canonical sources and tell the Mormons what they believe.



They are right here, if you want to know what they believe all you have to do is ask. Instead everyone seems determined to tell the Mormons what they believe.

I've asked--even by PM--same yes/no thing.

 

[fatboys]

I've asked--even by PM--same yes/no thing.

ask me a question and I will answer it

 

[mmksparbud]

ask me a question and I will answer it

OK--list your doctrines!

 

[fatboys]

OK--list your doctrines!

This was written by Joseph Smith called the Articles of Faith

1 We believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adams transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are : First, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy, and by the laying of of hands by those who are in authority to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying , honoring, and sustaining the law
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we see after these things.

 

[mmksparbud]

OK--now can you list the rest of your believes??
When is it that all the rest of it comes to light? Do I have to take it a question at a time? You all can't just state what your believes are?
Like God's History and origin
Who is Satan
Where was the Garden of Eden
what happens after death
the conception of Christ
Even one question?--no lengthy explanation needed, just the basics not the why it's believed, just the believe? The above doctrine states that the BOM is also the word of God--so that means everything in it is doctrinal and to be believed--right??

 

[fatboys]

OK--now can you list the rest of your believes??
When is it that all the rest of it comes to light? Do I have to take it a question at a time? You all can't just state what your believes are?
Like God's History and origin
Who is Satan
Where was the Garden of Eden
what happens after death
the conception of Christ
Even one question?--no lengthy explanation needed, just the basics not the why it's believed, just the believe? The above doctrine states that the BOM is also the word of God--so that means everything in it is doctrinal and to be believed--right??

We believe that God the Father has a glorified perfected physical body. We believe that hat the Son has a resurrected glorified physical body. The Holy Ghost is a spirit. We believe that they are seperate and distinct individuals but together they become the Godhead under which all things are done with one intent under the direction of the Father. They become as one in intent and and action. Each has their calling.
We believe that before this life we lived in a pre existence where our spirits were created by our Heavenly Father. We lived there and learned and gained knowledge. Every person that is on the earth today or that has or will be born lived in this pre existane. There was one third of those spirits that rebelled against the Father with the leader being lucifer. That third was kicked out. They lost their right to come to earth to gain a physical body.
Got to go write more later

 

[ArmenianJohn]

OK--now can you list the rest of your believes??
When is it that all the rest of it comes to light? Do I have to take it a question at a time? You all can't just state what your believes are?
Like God's History and origin
Who is Satan
Where was the Garden of Eden
what happens after death
the conception of Christ
Even one question?--no lengthy explanation needed, just the basics not the why it's believed, just the believe? The above doctrine states that the BOM is also the word of God--so that means everything in it is doctrinal and to be believed--right??

Here is a great video that describes the beliefs of the mormons -

 

[drstevej]

We believe that God the Father has a glorified perfected physical body. We believe that hat the Son has a resurrected glorified physical body. The Holy Ghost is a spirit. We believe that they are seperate and distinct individuals but together they become the Godhead under which all things are done with one intent under the direction of the Father. They become as one in intent and and action. Each has their calling.
We believe that before this life we lived in a pre existence where our spirits were created by our Heavenly Father. We lived there and learned and gained knowledge. Every person that is on the earth today or that has or will be born lived in this pre existane. There was one third of those spirits that rebelled against the Father with the leader being lucifer. That third was kicked out. They lost their right to come to earth to gain a physical body.
Got to go write more later

And HEAVENLY MOTHER gets NO mention. Wonder why?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Articles of Faith = creed

 

[fatboys]

Articles of Faith = creed

Lets see, Nicene Creed with hundreds of leaders trying to decide what they believe versus God revealed restorational doctrines. I think you are really straining at a knat and will swallow and camel over this one.