What it is to be like hating wife?

[nomadictheist]

Why do you think both the words sister and wife appear in the same verse?

1 Corinthians 9: 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Because Paul is stressing a "believer" (sister). Bringing along an unbelieving wife would be a hindrance to the spread of the gospel. If your interpretation were true, he would have left it at "sister."

Jesus did not call Him as an apostle for the Gentiles.

You will need strong scriptural proof for that claim, my friend, especially since Paul says that Jesus did appoint him as an apostle to the gentiles.

That applies to you also!

No it doesn't. I only quoted one verse that directly shows that Peter and other apostles had wives and even brought them along on journeys at times. There are plenty of verses that show that marriage is an acceptable - and even a desirable - path for followers of Christ.

Here are a few:
"22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." (Ephesians 5)

"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7)

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”"
" The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”" (Matthew 19)

As you can see here, Jesus teaches the opposite of what you are saying. He said "let the one who is able to receive this [therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife.... let not man separate] receive it."

So Jesus says here if the desire to leave your father and your mother and cling faithfully to your wife, you should do it.

No you are wrong.

Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

You say I'm wrong, but then quote the scripture that proves that I'm right. As you can plainly see, He does not just say wives, but lists almost all other relationships as well.

Furthermore, what does "give up" mean? Because if you take it to mean "cut all ties with," then your error becomes even more clear because Jesus says "his own life also." Yet the apostle John died, so far as we know, of old age. And many other of the early disciples and church fathers did as well.

"Give up" means surrender. This is solidifying the point that if we have anything above Jesus - if there is anything that we have not surrendered to Him - we cannot be His disciples. If we are holding on to anything, be it relationship, wealth, or even life, and have not acknowledged that it is His to do what He pleases with, then we cannot truly be His disciples.

There is no question of divorce. Coming together for His service only, not for procreation!

You advocate depriving your wife, which is expressly forbidden "except maybe for a limited time" in Corinthians

 

[civilwarbuff]

Because Paul is stressing a "believer" (sister). Bringing along an unbelieving wife would be a hindrance to the spread of the gospel. If your interpretation were true, he would have left it at "sister."

You will need strong scriptural proof for that claim, my friend, especially since Paul says that Jesus did appoint him as an apostle to the gentiles.


No it doesn't. I only quoted one verse that directly shows that Peter and other apostles had wives and even brought them along on journeys at times. There are plenty of verses that show that marriage is an acceptable - and even a desirable - path for followers of Christ.

Here are a few:
"22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." (Ephesians 5)

"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7)

"He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”"
" The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”" (Matthew 19)

As you can see here, Jesus teaches the opposite of what you are saying. He said "let the one who is able to receive this [therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife.... let not man separate] receive it."

So Jesus says here if the desire to leave your father and your mother and cling faithfully to your wife, you should do it.



You say I'm wrong, but then quote the scripture that proves that I'm right. As you can plainly see, He does not just say wives, but lists almost all other relationships as well.

Furthermore, what does "give up" mean? Because if you take it to mean "cut all ties with," then your error becomes even more clear because Jesus says "his own life also." Yet the apostle John died, so far as we know, of old age. And many other of the early disciples and church fathers did as well.

"Give up" means surrender. This is solidifying the point that if we have anything above Jesus - if there is anything that we have not surrendered to Him - we cannot be His disciples. If we are holding on to anything, be it relationship, wealth, or even life, and have not acknowledged that it is His to do what He pleases with, then we cannot truly be His disciples.



You advocate depriving your wife, which is expressly forbidden "except maybe for a limited time" in Corinthians

Well put...

 

[Righttruth]

I don't see wife on that list...

And, for that matter, He says "for my sake." This doesn't mean you should cut off all your relationships with believing relatives and wives.

The earlier blood and marital relationship ought to cease with fellowship with Jesus when one wants to become a disciple and follow Jesus. Fellowship with the same may continue like any other believer in Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

Because Paul is stressing a "believer" (sister). Bringing along an unbelieving wife would be a hindrance to the spread of the gospel. If your interpretation were true, he would have left it at "sister."

How many wives were counted in the ministry of Jesus as His disciples in conjunction with apostles? Why should Jesus tell them to hate their wives even to become His disciples?

You will need strong scriptural proof for that claim, my friend, especially since Paul says that Jesus did appoint him as an apostle to the gentiles.

The proof is the word of Jesus.

No it doesn't. I only quoted one verse that directly shows that Peter and other apostles had wives and even brought them along on journeys at times.

In that case, you may say the wives were the witnesses during Last Supper!

There are plenty of verses that show that marriage is an acceptable - and even a desirable - path for followers of Christ.

That is conveniently diluting the call of Jesus. Even Paul did not recommend marriage. He advised that for the weak.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Just to let you know that pukey green font you are using is unreadable on my screen.

 

[Righttruth]

Anyone who's thinking followers of Christ should not marry. The scripture clearly states that belief is wrong to hold.

Not a follower who takes up the cross. It is alright for a believer.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Only the strong spiritually will take up the cross and follow Jesus. It not possible for all; so need to settle for the lower status and responsibility.

So, you are a literalist...you take the bible literally. Have you dragged your crucifixtion sized cross down the street lately? Didn't think so...

 

[Righttruth]

Just to let you know that pukey green font you are using is unreadable on my screen.

OK, I will change the color.

 

[civilwarbuff]

OK, I will change the color.

Thx

 

[Righttruth]

So, you are a literalist...you take the bible literally. Have you dragged your crucifixtion sized cross down the street lately? Didn't think so...

Bible should be understood spiritually. It is not meant for convenient private interpretations for 'ear tickling' theories!

 

[civilwarbuff]

Bible should be understood spiritually. It is not meant for convenient private interpretations for 'ear tickling' theories!

Yet you are quoting verses and expressing your view of them literally....or at the very least not expressing your spiritual interpretation of them in such a way that I can see to understand it. Spiritual interpretation usually takes some expalining as the verses have to be explained in context to their meaning. Your explanations, where they exist, are short and not very informative.

 

[nomadictheist]

How many wives were counted in the ministry of Jesus as His disciples in conjunction with apostles? Why should Jesus tell them to hate their wives even to become His disciples?

This has already been explained. Jesus did not mean literally hate your wives. As the correlating verse in Matthew shows, Jesus is talking about loving Him so much that all else is hated in comparison - including your own life. Do you also advocate committing suicide, because this would be in following with your interpretation of that text?

The proof is the word of Jesus.

Show me the scripture where Jesus said He did not make Paul an apostle, or this conversation is over:
Romans 1: "Paul, a servant[a] of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,"
Romans 11: "13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."
1 Timothy 1: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,"
You are calling Paul a liar. If you don't have scripture (which I know you can't) that specifically says Jesus did not call Paul to be an apostle, then you'd better reconsider your position.

In that case, you may say the wives were the witnesses during Last Supper!

I don't know how you even come up with this from the many passages of scripture that I quoted. But I'm not giving you opinions. I'm giving you scripture, which is more than you can do to support your point of view.

That is conveniently diluting the call of Jesus. Even Paul did not recommend marriage. He advised that for the weak.

No it's not "conveniently diluting" anything. This is what Jesus said, straight from the record given to us by Matthew, one of His original disciples. It may be inconvenient for you, but it's what Jesus said.

Paul did not recommend marriage, but he also said that he was not speaking from God when he did not recommend marriage. In fact, that is the one time in all of his epistles that he stops and makes sure that people know that this portion of the epistle is his personal feelings and not God's command. Paul himself was not married, and therefore it is not surprising that he did not recommend marriage, as he saw a wife and family as things that conflict with serving God. Yet some are called to have a wife and family, as Jesus Himself said.

You'd better watch out what spirit you are following, as it is written:
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."

Everything created by God is good. And is marriage created by God? According to Jesus, yes:
"He who created them from the beginning created them male and female, and 'therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife.' Therefore what God has joined together let no man separate."

I have shown you more than enough scripture that shows that having a wife is not an evil thing or a bad thing, nor is it prohibited for a follower of Jesus. You have 2 verses you keep going back to because you somehow believe that what they appear to say to you negates everything else the Bible says about the matter, even though you only apply the concept to wives. There are plenty of other relational bonds mentioned in the verses you quote, but for some reason you fixate on wives and say the rest of those things are cool to retain.

 

[Righttruth]

Yet you are quoting verses and expressing your view of them literally....or at the very least not expressing your spiritual interpretation of them in such a way that I can see to understand it. Spiritual interpretation usually takes some expalining as the verses have to be explained in context to their meaning. Your explanations, where they exist, are short and not very informative.

It may be possible to express my views elaborately if you ask specific clarifications.

 

[Righttruth]

This has already been explained. Jesus did not mean literally hate your wives. As the correlating verse in Matthew shows, Jesus is talking about loving Him so much that all else is hated in comparison - including your own life. Do you also advocate committing suicide, because this would be in following with your interpretation of that text?

It is OK to treat the word 'hate' in a milder way. Your third sentence is understandable and appropriate. Jesus was not trying to advocate suicide but telling us not to hesitate to become martyrs for the sake of the Gospel.

Show me the scripture where Jesus said He did not make Paul an apostle, or this conversation is over:
Romans 1: "Paul, a servant[a] of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,"
Romans 11: "13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."
1 Timothy 1: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,"
You are calling Paul a liar. If you don't have scripture (which I know you can't) that specifically says Jesus did not call Paul to be an apostle, then you'd better reconsider your position.

Self-claims don't add weight to evidence!

No it's not "conveniently diluting" anything. This is what Jesus said, straight from the record given to us by Matthew, one of His original disciples. It may be inconvenient for you, but it's what Jesus said.

There are two different issues here. One on marriage and another totally on becoming a disciple.

Paul did not recommend marriage, but he also said that he was not speaking from God when he did not recommend marriage. In fact, that is the one time in all of his epistles that he stops and makes sure that people know that this portion of the epistle is his personal feelings and not God's command. Paul himself was not married, and therefore it is not surprising that he did not recommend marriage, as he saw a wife and family as things that conflict with serving God. Yet some are called to have a wife and family, as Jesus Himself said.

1 Corinthians 7: Teaching on Marriage
1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

v.6 clearly indicates that Paul was giving concession for marriage.

You'd better watch out what spirit you are following, as it is written:
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."

I am not forbidding marriage. But the call of Jesus for discipleship is different.

Everything created by God is good. And is marriage created by God? According to Jesus, yes:
"He who created them from the beginning created them male and female, and 'therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife.' Therefore what God has joined together let no man separate."

Discipleship cannot be a reason for divorce. A person who is carrying cross cannot indulge in sensual pleasure part-time!

I have shown you more than enough scripture that shows that having a wife is not an evil thing or a bad thing, nor is it prohibited for a follower of Jesus. You have 2 verses you keep going back to because you somehow believe that what they appear to say to you negates everything else the Bible says about the matter,

Indeed it is prohibited for a follower; for a believer it is OK for his subordinate role in the kingdom of heaven.

even though you only apply the concept to wives. There are plenty of other relational bonds mentioned in the verses you quote, but for some reason you fixate on wives and say the rest of those things are cool to retain.

Yes, I know there are other relationships, but I am confining on this because it has been conveniently misused and glorified!

 

[nomadictheist]

It is OK to treat the word 'hate' in a milder way. Your third sentence is understandable and appropriate. Jesus was not trying to advocate suicide but telling us not to hesitate to become martyrs for the sake of the Gospel.



Self-claims don't add weight to evidence!



There are two different issues here. One on marriage and another totally on becoming a disciple.



1 Corinthians 7: Teaching on Marriage
1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.
3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

v.6 clearly indicates that Paul was giving concession for marriage.

And verse 7 clearly indicates that each has his own gift, and that Paul's was not marriage. We have seen examples of believers who were married (Priscilla and Aquila are another example from the Bible of followers of Christ who were married).

I am not forbidding marriage. But the call of Jesus for discipleship is different.



Discipleship cannot be a reason for divorce. A person who is carrying cross cannot indulge in sensual pleasure part-time!



Indeed it is prohibited for a follower; for a believer it is OK for his subordinate role in the kingdom of heaven.



Yes, I know there are other relationships, but I am confining on this because it has been conveniently misused and glorified!

I will not argue endless circles here anymore.

You deny the apostleship of Paul based on absolutely nothing but your own personal beliefs.

You forbid marriage for "followers" of Christ, as though there is a difference between a follower and a mere "subordinate."

You advocate that those who become followers of Christ disobey the scriptures by depriving their wives for the rest of their natural lives.

You claim that people who are "followers" or "disciples" are above believers who are not (a distinction which you make, not the Bible).

You deny Jesus' own words that marriage is of God, and therefore good for all people to whom it is given.

When asked to give supporting scripture, you only deny further.

All of these have been shown from scripture to be wrong. Yet you argue based on a couple of verses, which you pull out of context, that you know better than the apostles, and even than Jesus Himself.

 

[Righttruth]

And verse 7 clearly indicates that each has his own gift, and that Paul's was not marriage. We have seen examples of believers who were married (Priscilla and Aquila are another example from the Bible of followers of Christ who were married).



I will not argue endless circles here anymore.

You deny the apostleship of Paul based on absolutely nothing but your own personal beliefs.

You forbid marriage for "followers" of Christ, as though there is a difference between a follower and a mere "subordinate."

You advocate that those who become followers of Christ disobey the scriptures by depriving their wives for the rest of their natural lives.

You claim that people who are "followers" or "disciples" are above believers who are not (a distinction which you make, not the Bible).


You deny Jesus' own words that marriage is of God, and therefore good for all people to whom it is given.

When asked to give supporting scripture, you only deny further.

All of these have been shown from scripture to be wrong. Yet you argue based on a couple of verses, which you pull out of context, that you know better than the apostles, and even than Jesus Himself.

Anything that contradicts words of Jesus, that is truth, will not assure of salvation! Paul cannot offer that!

 

[Righttruth]

Because Paul is stressing a "believer" (sister). Bringing along an unbelieving wife would be a hindrance to the spread of the gospel. If your interpretation were true, he would have left it at "sister."

You will need strong scriptural proof for that claim, my friend, especially since Paul says that Jesus did appoint him as an apostle to the gentiles.

There cannot be more than 12 apostles. Jesus did not appoint Paul as an additional Gentile apostle.

So Jesus says here if the desire to leave your father and your mother and cling faithfully to your wife, you should do it.

That is not for discipleship.

Furthermore, what does "give up" mean? Because if you take it to mean "cut all ties with," then your error becomes even more clear because Jesus says "his own life also." Yet the apostle John died, so far as we know, of old age. And many other of the early disciples and church fathers did as well.

"Give up" means surrender. This is solidifying the point that if we have anything above Jesus - if there is anything that we have not surrendered to Him - we cannot be His disciples. If we are holding on to anything, be it relationship, wealth, or even life, and have not acknowledged that it is His to do what He pleases with, then we cannot truly be His disciples.

Mere declarations will not suffice. That is hypocricy!

You advocate depriving your wife, which is expressly forbidden "except maybe for a limited time" in Corinthians

That is for ordinary believers