Hello again Brother, God bless@LoveofTruth
Could you share your thoughts on Romans 6:3-4? I came away with the impression that this may be referring to both Spirit and water baptism in this instance. But I am open to your thoughts on seeing it otherwise.
Thank you, brother.
May God bless you greatly today.
Consider thisPeter delivered a magnificent Spirit-inspired speech and yet was mistaken? Maybe he was mistaken about all things? Have you seriously considered the possibility that maybe you've mistakenly bought into the wrong metaphysics?
The obvious tension here is that Scripture associates physical water (baptism) with a supernatural effect (cleansing us from sin). A physical metaphysics easily resolves/explains this tension. In the early church, the divine Word regularly assumed the physical form of Living Water replacing or permeating some of the baptismal water. Thus water baptism WAS an occasion of Spirit-baptism, and it DID perform some (incremental) measure of regeneration/sanctification (cleansing from sin).
The one baptism that is now in effect for those living under the new covenant of Christ, the gospel of Christ taught by Paul and all the chosen apostles is water.
I'm not a Greek scholar. No one needs to be a greek scholar to understand Jesus' gospel.
Paul in Epheasians 4:5 teaches the ONE immersion today is water.
We know this by the Greek word baptizo.
Mark 16:15-16 Jesus uses the word baptizo.
Baptizo is only used for water baptism never Holy Spirit baptism or any other baptism.
The Greek word used for jewish washings under the Mosaical law and old covenant Mikvah is, recorded in Hebrews 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
OF THE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS, OF THE LAYING ON OF HANDS, OF RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD AND OF ETERNAL JUDGEMENT.
This word baptisms in Hebrews 6:2 is not baptizo or baptisma(the word used regularly in the New Testament for christian immersion) Baptisms in Hevrews 6:2 is not baptisma.
Here are a few passages where baptisma, baptizo is used. This Greek word always refers to water.
Mark 16:15-16
John 3:5
Acts 2:38
Acts 8:12
In Acts 8 we see clearly the baptism that believers did, was not Holy Spirit baptism as the context of chapter 8 shows,
Acts 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
We will learn this baptism is water for they have not yet received the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 FOR AS YET HE HAD FALLEN UPON NONE OF THEM.
They had only been baptized(water baptisma) in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Every verse where someone is baptized "in the name of the Lord" is water baptism. Never Holy Spirit.
More verses of water baptism,
Matthew 28:19
Acts 8:38-39
Acts 9:18(Paul's water immersion)
Acts 10:47-48
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:33
Acts 19:5
Acts 22:16
How do we. know Jesus' commission in Mark 16:15-16 and Matthew 28:19 is water baptism and not Holy Spirit?
Because God baptized man directly with Holy Spirit baptism.
Man baptizes Man with water baptism. Jesus commands His disciples to baptize other men.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Paul was teaching the one baptism in the gospel of Jesus Christ is water, Epheasians 4:5
Because only water baptism is the baptism that washes away our sins,
Epheasians 5:26
That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.
1Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized(this Greek word is baptizo, meaning water only)
Into one body- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
If 1Corinthians 12:13 is Holy Spirit baptism into the one body.
Then it would not read,
For BY one Spirit we were all baptized...
It would instead read,
For WITH one Spirit we were all baptized...
The one body being the church, Colossians 1:18
We are water baptized into the one body/church,
Acts 2:38-39
Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them,
Added to what? Answer:
Acts 2:47
Praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the Church daily those who were being saved.
Many churches vote to have folks become members of their church. This is an unscriptual practise.
Only God Himself adds the saved to His church. God makes us members of His body not men.
The apostles that received Holy Spirit baptism had complete perfect understanding of the revelation of the the covenant, Jesus' will and testament the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If the apostles who received Holy Spirit baptism were not all knowing then they were not fully equipped by God to complete the revelation of God ie the Holy Bible.
This was the very purpose of Holy Spirit baptism. To give the apostles miraculous knowledge to bring to completion the work Jesus came to earth to fulfill.
Jesus promises His apostles that they will receive Holy Spirit baptism ie power from on high.
Luke 24:49
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.
Acts 2:1-2;4
When the day of penetcost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
This power from on high gave them ALL miraculous knowledge of Gods revelation to man,
John 14:25-26
These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name He will teach you ALL THINGS and bring to your remembrance ALL THINGS that I said to you.
John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.
Jesus promised the apostles they would be guided into ALL KNOWLEDGE by His Holy Spirit.
How much knowledge is ALL TRUTH?
All means all.
The apostles were not ignorant of any of the new gospel of Jesus Christ. For they did not need to study but were given miraculous knowledge.
What about Peter's sin that Paul rebuked Peter to his face?
Peter knew he was going against the Holy Spirit when he sinned.
Holy Spirit baptism never took away the apostles free will.
They could choose to obey the Holy Spirit's revelation or go against it.
They still could commit willful sin.
This does not prove Peter did not have ALL knowledge when he sinned against God.
Peter knew water baptism was part of Jesus' gospel when he preached immersion in water in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48.
This was no mistake on Peter's part. He was miraculously guided by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Himself taught water baptism in His gospel in Mark 16:15-16.
Peter delivered a magnificent Spirit-inspired speech and yet was mistaken? Maybe he was mistaken about all things? Have you seriously considered the possibility that maybe you've mistakenly bought into the wrong metaphysics?
The obvious tension here is that Scripture associates physical water (baptism) with a supernatural effect (cleansing us from sin). A physical metaphysics easily resolves/explains this tension. In the early church, the divine Word regularly assumed the physical form of Living Water replacing or permeating some of the baptismal water. Thus water baptism WAS an occasion of Spirit-baptism, and it DID perform some (incremental) measure of regeneration/sanctification (cleansing from sin).
When even the prophets spoke first person for God do you think they always understood exactly what they were saying and the future events. Peter had the right words but how to apply things is the question. Peter was going to the temple that day and still connected to it and the Ot law, we see thousands of Jewish Christians still attached to the temple and the Mosaic law and the customs zealously in Acts 21. Even Paul went into the Temple with them and animal sacrifices were offered.When one is able to rightly divide the word of truth, between Israel and the Body of Christ, one can avoid making silly ad-hoc assumptions that "Peter was mistaken in delivering his Holy Spirit inspired sermon in Acts 2", and still form a doctrine that water baptism is not required for anyone in the Body of Christ today.
Show me where Jesus is speaking of water baptism there and why do you add the word "water. Also we never see that formula repeated in the New testament.Not at all, Jesus clearly ordered that people be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, This is not the same as the baptism given by John.
When even the prophets spoke first person for God do you think they always understood exactly what they were saying and the future events. Peter had the right words but how to apply things is the question. Peter was going to the temple that day and still connected to it and the Ot law, we see thousands of Jewish Christians still attached to the temple and the Mosaic law and the customs zealously in Acts 21. Even Paul went into the Temple with them and animal sacrifices were offered.
So no "silly ad-hoc assumptions", here.
We also read that Peter was trying to compel the Gentiles to live like the Jews at one time and the gospel was in danger and Peter was to be blamed by Paul, rightly so. Read Galatians 2 about 10 times in prayer.
Also, the Holy Ghost was working in the apostles and all believers in Christ who were filled. But that doesn't mean we still need to grow in knowledge of things. Peter said that Paul wrote the wisdom of God and that some things were hard to be understood. Why did Peter say that if he understood all thing easily and every believer will understand all things easily after being Spirit filled?
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In the scriptural view, and my view as scripture shows, it is definitely not required for salvation.So, in your view, is water baptism required for our salvation today?
In the scriptural view, and my view as scripture shows, it is definitely not required for salvation.
The gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 shows we are save by the hearing of faith and by believing we have life. We must keep in memory the truth of the gospel. And live in the life of Christ through grace as he abides in us through faith .
It is by one Spirit that we are “ALL”, baptised into one body. And as many of us as have been baptized into Christ (not into water) have put on Christ ( not put on water)
Anyone that reads the Greek text in Eph 4:5 which says , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE BAPRISM .maybe read post 264 about ten times and in prayer
the Greek wont help you here. These things are spiritual in understanding to be immersed into Christ is a deep truth and the saving baptism.Yes, there is one (saving) baptism, and it is not water baptism. The one baptism must be the one that all believers have and the one that is said to be saving in scripture.Anyone that reads the Greek text in Eph 4:5 which says , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE BAPRISM .
#1 ONE means ONE TO ME , and do says it means ONE ??
#2 ONE // EIS is in the Greek NOMINATIVE CASE , and says it is the SUBJUST and is in the Greek SINGULAR and that means there is ONLY , ONE LORD .
#3 That goes for n ONE , FAITH also !
#4 And that goes for ONE BAPTISM and which is also in the NOMINATIVE CASE , and also in the SINGULAR , meaning there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM and is in the Greek NEUTER , which means this BAPTISMO applies to Male and Females
#5 The Greek texts reads BAPTISMA , and does not n read BAPTISO and check BLUE LETTER BIBLE or use BIBLE HUB and check it .
dan p
I have two verses for all that read my proof !the Greek wont help you here. These things are spiritual in understanding to be immersed into Christ is a deep truth and the saving baptism.Yes, there is one (saving) baptism, and it is not water baptism. The one baptism must be the one that all believers have and the one that is said to be saving in scripture.
"“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” ( 1 Peter 3:21)
This baptism is said to be saving and it is NOT "the putting away the filth of the flesh", or outward washing with water. It is the answer or the inquiry of a good conscience (an inward work) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ has finished the work on the cross and been accepted in the work evidence by his resurrection. We also are risen with him ti the full assurance of hope. Our conscience can be clean now and made perfect which it could not be with divers washings of the past or any carnal ordinance as scripture teaches,
The conscience , meaning with knowledge, was not able to understand how to be made clean by animal sacrifices they did not have the full knowledge. But now believers are with knowledge and a clean perfect purged conscience.
" Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation...“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”
Notice that the conscience cannot be clean or perfect by outward washings and carnal ordinances. But only through the blood of Christ.
Though there are many baptisms, and it is called the doctrine of baptism (Hebrews 6:2). The one saving baptism is this one,
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12;13)
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " ( Galatians 3:27)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? " ( Romans 6:3)
It is by the Spirit that we are all baptized into one Body, the body of Christ, when we are baptized into Jesus Christ we out on Christ, not water.
show me the word "water" there.You assume it is water baptism. i don;t believe it is.We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit,I have two verses for all that read my proof !
One is in Rom 6:3 and it reads , That as many as were BAPTIZED into Christ were BAPTIZED into his DEATH ?
Where does it say "water", we are crucified with Christ and have inner circumcision made without hands. The ground of the heart is broken up in repentance and a broken spirit and humble heart, then the seed can enter into us and our spirit is given life in the seed, the word of God, in Christ. Now through faith we die to the old man and the new man is born. We lay hold of eternal life and lose our old life. Christ dwells now in our heart by faith and He is formed in us. We are also not just crucified with him but burried and risen with him to the newness of life.So how are we WATER BAPTIZED into his death ??
I agree Peter is talking about the saving baptism, and that is into ChristMy other one is in 1 Peter 3:21 , where it reads The like figure whereunto even BAPTISMA ( In the Greek it is NOT water Baptism ) as the Greek word BAPTISMA is Not talking about WATER BAPTISM ,
And in 1 Cor 10:2 it reads , And all ( there were thousands of Jews at the RED SEA ) were BAPTIZED unto Moses , unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA .show me the word "water" there.You assume it is water baptism. i don;t believe it is.We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit,
Where does it say "water", we are crucified with Christ and have inner circumcision made without hands. The ground of the heart is broken up in repentance and a broken spirit and humble heart, then the seed can enter into us and our spirit is given life in the seed, the word of God, in Christ. Now through faith we die to the old man and the new man is born. We lay hold of eternal life and lose our old life. Christ dwells now in our heart by faith and He is formed in us. We are also not just crucified with him but burried and risen with him to the newness of life.
I agree Peter is talking about the saving baptism, and that is into Christ
And in 1 Cor 10:2 it reads , And all ( there were thousands of Jews at the RED SEA ) were BAPTIZED unto Moses , unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA .
MY question is does BAPTISM by it self mean WATER // HUDOR ?
If BAPRIZED // means Water , how were these Jews all BAPTIZED UNTO Moses ?
How were they BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?
How then were the BAPTIED unto the SEA ??
And what is the significance of the CLOUD ?
And the the significand of the SEA ?
Who were the ones destroyed by WATER // HUDOR ?
dan p
The type of being baptized unto Moses. Shows that they went through the sea on dry land. They did not dunk under water. The ones under water were those who could not go through on dry land.And in 1 Cor 10:2 it reads , And all ( there were thousands of Jews at the RED SEA ) were BAPTIZED unto Moses , unto the CLOUD , unto the SEA .
MY question is does BAPTISM by it self mean WATER // HUDOR ?
If BAPRIZED // means Water , how were these Jews all BAPTIZED UNTO Moses ?
How were they BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD ?
How then were the BAPTIED unto the SEA ??
And what is the significance of the CLOUD ?
And the the significand of the SEA ?
Who were the ones destroyed by WATER // HUDOR ?
dan p