How To Understand : Acts 2:38

[ViaCrucis]

The thief wasn't literally baptized in a water ritual and yet he renounced his deeds and relied on Christ, (baptism of repentance Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, Acts 19:4).

The term "baptism of repentance" refers to John's baptism. It's not a generic term for repentance, but refers to something specific to John the Baptist's ministry.

The thief had clear remorse for the life he lived. In fact we should probably take a moment to clarify that we say "thief" but he was more than a thief. A mere thief wouldn't be crucified by the Romans, crucifixion was a form of execution reserved as an especially cruel form of execution for enemies of the state. The justification used to have Jesus crucified was that He claimed to be a king, in direct opposition and defiance of the lordship of Caesar. When the thief admits his guilt, that he deserves what he is getting, he is recognizing that he has participated in immense violence. His remorse is clear, he admits he has lived a life which led him to where he is now, that the cruel fate of the cross was a just punishment for what he has done--but Jesus, clearly, has done nothing to deserve this. The thief then pleads, "Remember me when you enter into Your kingdom", here the thief has not only admitted his guilt, but also confesses a belief that Jesus is the Messiah. We can't infer to what degree he understood what that meant, not even Jesus' closest followers had fully come to grips with what being the Messiah meant. Yet the thief recognizes that this innocent man next to him is King, with a kingdom, the thief doesn't ask for much, only to be remembered.

But what Jesus offers is far more than just remembering the thief, Jesus gives the thief a promise, "You will be with Me in Paradise", the thief will not be counted among the wicked in Gehenna, but among the righteous in Paradise. Jesus gives the thief a promise, the promise of being among the righteous. In this, the Lord gives the thief salvation.

Again, this was not a "baptism of repentance", because that's not what "baptism of repentance" means, that refers to what John was doing when he was baptizing in the Jordan River, pointing forward to the coming of the Messiah. In Jesus that "baptism of repentance" has been fulfilled, it's why when Jesus is baptized by John it is "to fulfill all righteousness", and John's ministry decreased as Jesus' increased. John's work had accomplished what it needed to accomplish, the Messiah was here, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" is what John declared.

We have no way of knowing if the thief ever was baptized by John, but it would probably be safe to assume he probably wasn't.

The reality is that the thief became a new creation after his literal death, whereas, believing Christians are baptized into Christ
now that faith has come...Gal 3:25-29 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 2 Cor 5:15

Why do you say he became a new creation after his death? Jesus said, "Amen Amen I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise", the grace Jesus gives the thief is that the thief will be counted among the righteous. In that moment the thief received everything from the Lord.

We are baptized into Christ when we are baptized. For most of Christian history baptism has been the first major step in being Jesus' disciple, it's why the Lord said, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." that's how the Church fulfills Jesus' Commission, by baptizing. Historically that meant baptizing converts as believers, or baptizing the children of believers as believers.

In the modern world, because of the high degree of confusion over the Sacrament of Holy Baptism and differences in practice among some denominations from the historic norm of Christianity, there are a lot of people who become Christians and don't receive baptism until much later in life.

But baptism is still baptism. We can't make something else baptism that isn't baptism. This is why we shouldn't put our trust in our own efforts and abilities, but in God's grace. Salvation isn't a formula or a procedure, it's God's divine rescue project.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—1 Cor 12:13 The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, Gal 2:20

If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. Rom 14:8-9

Children of the living God
Sing to the living God
How He loves us with great love
He who sits enthroned above
For our lives he shed his blood
Sent His Spirit like a flood

1 Corinthians 12:13 is still talking about baptism.

This isn't really all that complicated. Baptism is baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What exactly do you mean when you said someone has "faith in Jesus"?

Do you mind if I quote Dr. Martin Luther?

"Faith, however, is a divine work in us which changes us and makes us to be born anew of God, John 1[:12-13]. It kills the old Adam and makes us altogether different men, in heart and spirit and mind and powers; and it brings with it the Holy Spirit. O it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. It is impossible for it not to be doing good works incessantly. It does not ask whether good works are to be done, but before the question is asked, it has already done them, and is constantly doing them. Whoever does not do such works, however, is an unbeliever. He gropes and looks around for faith and good works, but knows neither what faith is nor what good works are. Yet he talks and talks, with many words, about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that the believer would stake his life on it a thousand times. This knowledge of and confidence in God’s grace makes men glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and with all creatures. And this is the work which the Holy Spirit performs in faith. Because of it, without compulsion, a person is ready and glad to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, out of love and praise to God who has shown him this grace. Thus it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate heat and light from fire. Beware, therefore, of your own false notions and of the idle talkers who imagine themselves wise enough to make decisions about faith and good works, and yet are the greatest fools. Pray God that he may work faith in you. Otherwise you will surely remain forever without faith, regardless of what you may think or do." - Martin Luther's Introduction to St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

If I may put it in my own words: In simple terms faith in Jesus is trust in Jesus--it is confidence in God's promise, it is trust in what God has done and said, it looks to Jesus and trusts Him, what He has done, and it can only know what God has given us freely as grace. It clings to this fact: Christ died for me, I am God's. Such faith is not a product of human power, wisdom, or reason; but the gift of God which He freely and wonderfully gives and works in us and strengthens by His grace. From the smallest infant, to the most unlearned person, to the most erudite of academics--faith remains faith, even when it is as small and meager as a mustard grain. For by such faith mountains are moved, the chains of death destroyed, and the power of the devil vanquished.

For here, in faith, Christ reigns as Lord, and here I am but a beggar who offers nothing, but receives everything. I am helpless and lost before the storm, but Christ is my Safety. In Him I am secure, and no power of darkest hell nor clever scheme of man can change what I have and what I am in Christ. I am baptized, I belong to Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

If I may put it in my own words: In simple terms faith in Jesus is trust in Jesus--it is confidence in God's promise, it is trust in what God has done and said, it looks to Jesus and trusts Him, what He has done, and it can only know what God has given us freely as grace. It clings to this fact: Christ died for me, I am God's. Such faith is not a product of human power, wisdom, or reason; but the gift of God which He freely and wonderfully gives and works in us and strengthens by His grace. From the smallest infant, to the most unlearned person, to the most erudite of academics--faith remains faith, even when it is as small and meager as a mustard grain. For by such faith mountains are moved, the chains of death destroyed, and the power of the devil vanquished.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks, I will put it simply as believing Christ died for my sins and rose again on the 3rd day for my justification, aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Once you believe that, water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Since you also said yes with my first scenario, which is

if you meet someone who believes Christ died for his sins and rose on the 3rd day from the dead, aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but he never got around to be water baptized,

would you say he is saved?

you are also agreeing with that point of mine.

Am I correct to conclude that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks, I will put it simply as believing Christ died for my sins and rose again on the 3rd day for my justification, aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

This reduces faith to mere intellectual assent to doctrine, and makes faith a property of human intellect. That results in denying faith, denying faith for small children, or for people who have severe learning disabilities. It rejects that faith is God's gift, God's work, and God's power; and turns faith into a human work of intellectual assent.

Once you believe that, water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I have a lot of responses to this assertion, but my chief question would simply be this: Why? I'm not seeing how one reaches that conclusion even presupposing the above premise is correct; which I don't agree with, as I don't believe that faith can be reduced to a work of human reason. There are too many problems with that, not least of which is that it denies God's grace.

Since you also said yes with my first scenario, which is



you are also agreeing with that point of mine.

Am I correct to conclude that?

No. You would not be correct to conclude that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[keepitsimple144]

The term "baptism of repentance" refers to John's baptism. It's not a generic term for repentance, but refers to something specific to John the Baptist's ministry.

The thief had clear remorse for the life he lived.

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation, but worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death. 2 Cor 7:10

But what Jesus offers is far more than just remembering the thief, Jesus gives the thief a promise, "You will be with Me in Paradise", the thief will not be counted among the wicked in Gehenna, but among the righteous in Paradise. Jesus gives the thief a promise, the promise of being among the righteous. In this, the Lord gives the thief salvation.
Again, this was not a "baptism of repentance"

Are you suggesting that the thief was unrepentant?
Keep in mind that Jesus declared that "If you do not repent you will all likewise perish."
Also, "If you don't believe that I am the Messiah, you will indeed die in your sins."

because that's not what "baptism of repentance" means, that refers to what John was doing when he was baptizing in the Jordan River, pointing forward to the coming of the Messiah. In Jesus that "baptism of repentance" has been fulfilled, it's why when Jesus is baptized by John it is "to fulfill all righteousness", and John's ministry decreased as Jesus' increased. John's work had accomplished what it needed to accomplish, the Messiah was here, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" is what John declared.

We have no way of knowing if the thief ever was baptized by John, but it would probably be safe to assume he probably wasn't.

Which is the reason John warns the religious zealots who did not believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah to "bear fruits worthy of repentance" or they would not escape the coming wrath. Matthew 3:6-8

Why do you say he became a new creation after his death? Jesus said, "Amen Amen I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise", the grace Jesus gives the thief is that the thief will be counted among the righteous. In that moment the thief received everything from the Lord.

Now it seems as though you are in agreement that the inheritance is through faith.

We are baptized into Christ when we are baptized. For most of Christian history baptism has been the first major step in being Jesus' disciple, it's why the Lord said, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." that's how the Church fulfills Jesus' Commission, by baptizing.

That was the baptism of the Spirit, "The one who comes after will baptize you with the Spirit..."
After He through the Holy Spirit had given instructions to the apostles whom He had chosen,
to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering...Acts 1:2-3

But baptism is still baptism. We can't make something else baptism that isn't baptism.

For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5

1 Corinthians 12:13 is still talking about baptism.

Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:16-17

This isn't really all that complicated. Baptism is baptism.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is true freedom from bondage. 2 Cor 3:17
....the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9-10

 

[ViaCrucis]

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation, but worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death. 2 Cor 7:10

Are you suggesting that the thief was unrepentant?
Keep in mind that Jesus declared that "If you do not repent you will all likewise perish."
Also, "If you don't believe that I am the Messiah, you will indeed die in your sins."

Which is the reason John warns the religious zealots who did not believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah to "bear fruits worthy of repentance" or they would not escape the coming wrath. Matthew 3:6-8

Very clearly I'm not suggesting that. I said the exact opposite: The thief showed he had remorse over his sin and sought refuge in Jesus.

What I said was that the thief did not receive the "baptism of repentance" because that refers to what John was doing. The phrase "baptism of repentance" applies to John's baptism, it is not a term that simply applies to repentance generally.

Now it seems as though you are in agreement that the inheritance is through faith.

I think I've been fairly clear that I believe that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone.

That was the baptism of the Spirit, "The one who comes after will baptize you with the Spirit..."
After He through the Holy Spirit had given instructions to the apostles whom He had chosen,
to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering...Acts 1:2-3

For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5

Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:16-17

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is true freedom from bondage. 2 Cor 3:17
....the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Rom 8:9-10

Going solely by what is written in the Bible, what is the baptism with the Holy Spirit? I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking you to go to the Scriptures and find an answer.

Start here: Acts 1:4-5, and now look at what you read later on in Acts, start reading at Acts 2:1 and the entire account of Pentecost. Now, again, go and look at what happens in Acts 10, specifically beginning in Acts 10:44. And looking at what Peter says after relating to this event to the rest of the Jerusalem church in Acts 11, with emphasis on Acts 11:15-16.

The term "baptism with the Holy Spirit" has a specific meaning and a specific context in the New Testament. It refers to when the Holy Spirit was poured out "on all flesh" (Acts 2:17, quoting Joel 2:28).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

No. You would not be correct to conclude that.

-CryptoLutheran

How To Understand : Acts 2:38

It was not, at the beginning of Acts 10, Peter was reluctant to go to Cornelius house and even told him its unlawful for Jews and gentiles to associate. Nevertheless it dawned on him that God saves both Jews and gentiles prior to your random time setting of Acts 15. So Peter could not have...

www.christianforums.com

You earlier said clearly "Yes he is saved", in the above, in the first scenario.

You didn't meant that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

How To Understand : Acts 2:38

It was not, at the beginning of Acts 10, Peter was reluctant to go to Cornelius house and even told him its unlawful for Jews and gentiles to associate. Nevertheless it dawned on him that God saves both Jews and gentiles prior to your random time setting of Acts 15. So Peter could not have...

www.christianforums.com

You earlier said clearly "Yes he is saved", in the above, in the first scenario.

You didn't meant that?

No, I meant that.

Once you believe that, water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Is the conclusion you arrived at, which is the problem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[keepitsimple144]

Very clearly I'm not suggesting that. I said the exact opposite: The thief showed he had remorse over his sin and sought refuge in Jesus.

So we agree that he did indeed repent.

What I said was that the thief did not receive the "baptism of repentance" because that refers to what John was doing. The phrase "baptism of repentance" applies to John's baptism, it is not a term that simply applies to repentance generally.

And yet he was made right with God through the Son.
"For John came to you in the way of righteousness ..." Matt 21:32
The kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

I think I've been fairly clear that I believe that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone.

Indeed.
Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; Luke 24:46-49

Going solely by what is written in the Bible, what is the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

I think I've been fairly clear that it is the gift the Father promised.

I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking you to go to the Scriptures and find an answer.

Start here: Acts 1:4-5, and now look at what you read later on in Acts, start reading at Acts 2:1 and the entire account of Pentecost. Now, again, go and look at what happens in Acts 10, specifically beginning in Acts 10:44. And looking at what Peter says after relating to this event to the rest of the Jerusalem church in Acts 11, with emphasis on Acts 11:15-16.

So we agree that it was based on faith.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,
He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts10: 42-44

And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16

The term "baptism with the Holy Spirit" has a specific meaning and a specific context in the New Testament. It refers to when the Holy Spirit was poured out "on all flesh" (Acts 2:17, quoting Joel 2:28).

So then faith comes from hearing the Good News of salvation through Christ.

 

[Guojing]

No, I meant that.



Is the conclusion you arrived at, which is the problem.

-CryptoLutheran

But you answered yes to my first scenario, when that fellow was not water baptized.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But you answered yes to my first scenario, when that fellow was not water baptized.

You're operating under a reductionist mindset, trying to reduce salvation to a simple formula or procedure. That's not how Scripture talks about salvation.

-CryptoLutheran