IS WATER BAPTISM FOR TODAY ??

[Dan Perez]

I Peter says water BAPTISM is not for today , period !!

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISMA is the correct Greek word here , in Eph 4:5 , ONE BAPTISMA .

where BAPTISMA doth doth also now save us NOT // is a DISJUNCATIVE NEGATIVE and this NOTTTTTTTTTTT the putting AWAY of the FILITH of the FLESH .

This is the PROOF from the apostle Peter , what the Holy Spirit told him what to WRITE .

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

I Peter says water BAPTISM is not for today , period !!

The like figure whereunto even BAPTISMA is the correct Greek word here , in Eph 4:5 , ONE BAPTISMA .

where BAPTISMA doth doth also now save us NOT // is a DISJUNCATIVE NEGATIVE and this NOTTTTTTTTTTT the putting AWAY of the FILITH of the FLESH .

This is the PROOF from the apostle Peter , what the Holy Spirit told him what to WRITE .

dan p

Dan, I see Water Baptism as a time-tested way of introducing pagans into a new life in Christ. It may be questionable for those, like myself, who were raised up, from day one, in the faith. We got dedicated as infants, called a "baptism," whether it really was one or not.

I agree that Water Baptism does not actually save you, even though there are words in the NT that sound like that. Sometimes the Scriptures speak in "short hand."

What it is really saying, which is obvious from the context, is that Water Baptism *symbolizes* your salvation from evil deeds, not as by literal washing away of dirt and filth, but rather, in a picture of our choice to be delivered from sin and saved unto righteousness.

The one true Baptism unto Salvation indeed is our union with Christ in the Spirit. Water Baptism purely symbolizes our union with Christ in his death (burial in water) and resurrection (rising out of the water)>

 

[Dan Perez]

Dan, I see Water Baptism as a time-tested way of introducing pagans into a new life in Christ. It may be questionable for those, like myself, who were raised up, from day one, in the faith. We got dedicated as infants, called a "baptism," whether it really was one or not.

I agree that Water Baptism does not actually save you, even though there are words in the NT that sound like that. Sometimes the Scriptures speak in "short hand."

What it is really saying, which is obvious from the context, is that Water Baptism *symbolizes* your salvation from evil deeds, not as by literal washing away of dirt and filth, but rather, in a picture of our choice to be delivered from sin and saved unto righteousness.

The one true Baptism unto Salvation indeed is our union with Christ in the Spirit. Water Baptism purely symbolizes our union with Christ in his death (burial in water) and resurrection (rising out of the water)>

And I was also baptized at about age 24 , and later found out BAPTISM just gets you Wet ,

Does Mark 16:16 reads He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved .

In 1 Cor 10:2 reads , And all ( means all the Jews that crossed the Red SEA ) were BAPTIZED unto Moses in the CLOUD and in the SEA ,

It says BAPTIZED // B APTIMO, does the mean WATER BAPTISM as I do not see the Greek word WATER // HUDOR is EITHER passage .

Just because it says BAPTISM , YOU CANNOT then add the word WATER , but there are many that ADD the Greek

WATER here and any other place that suits them .

What say you ??

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

And I was also baptized at about age 24 , and later found out BAPTISM just gets ou Wet ,

Does Mark 16:16 reads He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved .

In 1 Cor 10:2 reads , And all ( means all the Jews that crossed the Red SEA ) were BAPTIZED unto Moses in the CLOUD and in the SEA ,

It says BAPTIZED // B APTIMO, does the mean WATER BAPTISM as I do not see the Greek word WATER // HUDOR is EITHER passage .

Just because it says BAPTISM , YOU CANNOT then add the word WATER , but there are many that ADD the Greek

WATER here and any other place that suits them .

What say you ??

dan p

What you seem to be saying is that the Baptism the Bible refers to is a union with Christ. Well it does that, but not to the exclusion of Water Baptism. The 1 Cor 10.2 passage is indeed inferring a *water* baptism, since Moses and Israel were "baptized in the sea," or water.

The idea is that water baptism is *symbolic* of our spiritual union with Christ. As Israel endured a type of death in the Red Sea and came out alive, so it was represented that Israel survived this "death experience" with the Lord, being united with God through His Word, as directed by Moses. This is apparently what prompted John the Baptist to use Water Baptism as symbolic of our going through death with the Lord, going through this condemned life with the hope of resurrection through repentance.

When Mark 16.16 speaks of believing and getting baptized leads to Salvation it is just saying that our faith unites us with the Lord, and that as the convert goes through the ritual of Water Baptism a person makes the right choice that leads to Salvation.

It is not saying that Water Baptism itself is necessary for Salvation, but simply that people were doing that in their choice for Christ, indicating that they were on the right path to being saved. It's like saying, "Everyone who makes a choice for Christ, raises his hand, and makes the walk down aisle, will get saved. It is *not* saying that it is necessary to "walk down the aisle" or "raise his hand" to get saved!

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

What it is really saying, which is obvious from the context, is that Water Baptism *symbolizes* your salvation

The Greek word for symbol is symbolia. It is not found in the NT nor the LXX. Please give chapter and verse where you get this notion that baptism symbolizes salvation.

 

[RandyPNW]

The Greek word for symbol is symbolia. It is not found in the NT nor the LXX. Please give chapter and verse where you get this notion that baptism symbolizes salvation.

The Greek description is not an English description. I'm not engaging in a word for word translation, but explaining the gist of what is being said so that we can understand in our language what is being inferred in another language.

Why do I sa7 that Water Baptism "saving" someone is an "inference" of a symbolic act? It is because we are explicitly told that the water is not being taken literally, as though cleansing someone of bodily pollution.

1 Pet 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

 

[Adventist Heretic]

A pastor once told me "Baptism is the way you unlock the Holy Spirit in your life, It is Giving the H.S. the right to come in"

 

[Dan Perez]

What you seem to be saying is that the Baptism the Bible refers to is a union with Christ. Well it does that, but not to the exclusion of Water Baptism. The 1 Cor 10.2 passage is indeed inferring a *water* baptism, since Moses and Israel were "baptized in the sea," or water.

The idea is that water baptism is *symbolic* of our spiritual union with Christ. As Israel endured a type of death in the Red Sea and came out alive, so it was represented that Israel survived this "death experience" with the Lord, being united with God through His Word, as directed by Moses. This is apparently what prompted John the Baptist to use Water Baptism as symbolic of our going through death with the Lord, going through this condemned life with the hope of resurrection through repentance.

When Mark 16.16 speaks of believing and getting baptized leads to Salvation it is just saying that our faith unites us with the Lord, and that as the convert goes through the ritual of Water Baptism a person makes the right choice that leads to Salvation.

It is not saying that Water Baptism itself is necessary for Salvation, but simply that people were doing that in their choice for Christ, indicating that they were on the right path to being saved. It's like saying, "Everyone who makes a choice for Christ, raises his hand, and makes the walk down aisle, will get saved. It is *not* saying that it is necessary to "walk down the aisle" or "raise his hand" to get saved!

In Rom 6:3 reads , Or are you IGNORANT , that as many as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into his DEATH ?

Will you add the Greek WATER // HYDOR , twice where the Greek WORD WATER // HYDOR is used in this verse TWICE ?

If you do , how be BAPTIZED into Christ death

So how can you WATER BAPTIZE into his DEAYTH ??

dan p

?

 

[RandyPNW]

In Rom 6:3 reads , Or are you IGNORANT , that as many as were BAPTIZED into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED into his DEATH ?

Will you add the Greek WATER // HYDOR , twice where the Greek WORD WATER // HYDOR is used in this verse TWICE ?

If you do , how be BAPTIZED into Christ death

So how can you WATER BAPTIZE into his DEAYTH ??

dan p

?

Dan, I'm saying that the most important Baptism, which you describe as Baptism into Christ, is depicted in Water Baptism. Just as John the Baptist baptized by water, so new converts in Acts were baptized in water. This reflected the true Baptism, which is the real Baptism, namely our Baptism into Christ.

It's not that Water Baptism isn't real or is meaningless. No, it is a real ritual depicting our real union with Christ which only takes place when we are "baptized into Christ" through the Spirit and through our faith.

Being baptized into Christ is done because Christ died and rose again so that in entering into him spiritually we can only be viewed as dead in sin and alive in him for righteousness. As Israel passed through the Red Sea, they died to Egypt and came alive to Sinai. As we get baptized in the name of Christ, we publicly display our choice to die to our old ways and begin to live in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dan Perez]

Dan, I'm saying that the most important Baptism, which you describe as Baptism into Christ, is depicted in Water Baptism. Just as John the Baptist baptized by water, so new converts in Acts were baptized in water. This reflected the true Baptism, which is the real Baptism, namely our Baptism into Christ.

It's not that Water Baptism isn't real or is meaningless. No, it is a real ritual depicting our real union with Christ which only takes place when we are "baptized into Christ" through the Spirit and through our faith.

Being baptized into Christ is done because Christ died and rose again so that in entering into him spiritually we can only be viewed as dead in sin and alive in him for righteousness. As Israel passed through the Red Sea, they died to Egypt and came alive to Sinai. As we get baptized in the name of Christ, we publicly display our choice to die to our old ways and begin to live in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

And I read your reply and do not deny that WATER BAPTISM began with John and given to Israel in John 1:31 as Israel never new what What WATER Baptism really was .

# 1 There is the Greek word BAPTO , to Dip

# 2 In Eph 4:5 there is the ONE BAPTISMA and this Greek i used 22 times from Matthew through 1 Peter 3:21

#3 Then the BAPTISM for the DEAD , in 1 Cor 15:29

# 4 Then Hebrew word SPRINKLE // ZARAQ in Eze 36:25 ith clean water

#5 Water Baptism is very important to many as they depend on WATER BAPTISM to save them as Mark 16:16 , reads and when the Greek word WATER // HUDOR is not in the verse .


Just a few for your consideration !!

dan p

 

[RandyPNW]

And I read your reply and do not deny that WATER BAPTISM began with John and given to Israel in John 1:31 as Israel never new what What WATER Baptism really was .

# 1 There is the Greek word BAPTO , to Dip

# 2 In Eph 4:5 there is the ONE BAPTISMA and this Greek i used 22 times from Matthew through 1 Peter 3:21

#3 Then the BAPTISM for the DEAD , in 1 Cor 15:29

# 4 Then Hebrew word SPRINKLE // ZARAQ in Eze 36:25 ith clean water

#5 Water Baptism is very important to many as they depend on WATER BAPTISM to save them as Mark 16:16 , reads and when the Greek word WATER // HUDOR is not in the verse .


Just a few for your consideration !!

dan p

"Baptizo" means "to submerge." That's what the Greek lexicon indicates.

In Jewish purification rites, water was used to cleanse, to appear ritually pure before God. Perhaps in ancient times it appears that "baptism" was a reference to some kind of mystical identification. But the idea seems to be the Hebrew notion that Israel had to pass through a "death experience" in the Red Sea in order to be delivered from Egypt. Paul would apply this to the new Christian dying to his independent ways and turning to walk with Christ.

I'm not sure where "baptism for the dead" came from--perhaps a non-Christian kind of identification with the dead person? Paul's statement was only that people believed the dead were still spiritually alive somewhere.

Yes, there was sprinkling under Jewish Law, including sprinkling by blood and sprinkling by water. Christian Baptism uses one of two methods, sprinkling or immersing, depending on the denomination. We were purified by Christ's blood. But we are purified by the water that has been "treated" by Christ's blood.

But your main point is critical. There is less concern how to be Water Baptized because it is purely symbolic of the real thing. It is only a public testimony of the "Baptism" that had already taken place when one unites with Christ's death and resurrection. It is our identification with Christ through faith in his gift.

If one only unites with Christ by faith, and is reborn, that is Salvation. Water Baptism does not add to that, but is only a public testimony which is helpful for us to provide.

Some of us were raised in the faith as children, and were dedicated as infants. We did not need to be baptized to confess faith in Christ. We were raised up in it. (My own opinion, since that is my testimony.)

 

[Dan Perez]

"Baptizo" means "to submerge." That's what the Greek lexicon indicates.

In Jewish purification rites, water was used to cleanse, to appear ritually pure before God. Perhaps in ancient times it appears that "baptism" was a reference to some kind of mystical identification. But the idea seems to be the Hebrew notion that Israel had to pass through a "death experience" in the Red Sea in order to be delivered from Egypt. Paul would apply this to the new Christian dying to his independent ways and turning to walk with Christ.

I'm not sure where "baptism for the dead" came from--perhaps a non-Christian kind of identification with the dead person? Paul's statement was only that people believed the dead were still spiritually alive somewhere.

Yes, there was sprinkling under Jewish Law, including sprinkling by blood and sprinkling by water. Christian Baptism uses one of two methods, sprinkling or immersing, depending on the denomination. We were purified by Christ's blood. But we are purified by the water that has been "treated" by Christ's blood.

But your main point is critical. There is less concern how to be Water Baptized because it is purely symbolic of the real thing. It is only a public testimony of the "Baptism" that had already taken place when one unites with Christ's death and resurrection. It is our identification with Christ through faith in his gift.

If one only unites with Christ by faith, and is reborn, that is Salvation. Water Baptism does not add to that, but is only a public testimony which is helpful for us to provide.

Some of us were raised in the faith as children, and were dedicated as infants. We did not need to be baptized to confess faith in Christ. We were raised up in it. (My own opinion, since that is my testimony.)

As I have seen BAPTISM is just ONE of biggest dividers in the bible that is mis-understood .

Here is just one example in 1 Cor 10:1 and says , And all were BAPTIZED into Moses in the CLOUD and is the SEA >

The question is how was Moses BAPTIZED unto thousands of the Jews that Moses was leading and crossing the RED SEA

and BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD and in the SEA ?


Also notice that verse 2 does NOT say WATER // HUDOR ?

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

One doesn't need a Greek lexicon starter kit to understand what Jesus meant. One only needs to look to the unchanging teaching of His Church.

Clement of Rome 99 AD
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

For thus hath the true prophet testified to its with an oath: `Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
For thus the prophet has sworn to us, saying, "Verily I say to you, Unless ye be regenerated by living water into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Council of Trent 1545
If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism[9] and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,[10] let him be anathema.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2009
1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

 

[RandyPNW]

As I have seen BAPTISM is just ONE of biggest dividers in the bible that is mis-understood .

Here is just one example in 1 Cor 10:1 and says , And all were BAPTIZED into Moses in the CLOUD and is the SEA >

The question is how was Moses BAPTIZED unto thousands of the Jews that Moses was leading and crossing the RED SEA

and BAPTIZED unto the CLOUD and in the SEA ?


Also notice that verse 2 does NOT say WATER // HUDOR ?

dan p

1 Cor 10.1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

The sea is water. Water does not need to be said, since it is understood as the constitution of the sea.

After all, this is meant by Paul to be a picture of Christian Baptism into Jesus' New Covenant. The Israelites being baptized in the Covenant brought by Moses, namely the Law, is a picture of Christians being baptized into Christ and his New Covenant. In both cases, God's people are purified by the Spirit and the Word, symbolized by the water.

Both the cloud and the sea represent water in various forms. Both represented purification by Christ, just as water was used under the Law to purify Israel. God used water to both guide and purify Israel. The cloud was a guide.

 

[Dan Perez]

1 Cor 10.1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

So how were the thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

And just where is the NEW COVENANT mentioned in 1 Cor 10:1 and 2 ?

Your thoughts , and where the New COVENANT is mentioned and is it for the BODY of CHRIST ?

dan p

The sea is water. Water does not need to be said, since it is understood as the constitution of the sea.

After all, this is meant by Paul to be a picture of Christian Baptism into Jesus' New Covenant. The Israelites being baptized in the Covenant brought by Moses, namely the Law, is a picture of Christians being baptized into Christ and his New Covenant. In both cases, God's people are purified by the Spirit and the Word, symbolized by the water.

Both the cloud and the sea represent water in various forms. Both represented purification by Christ, just as water was used under the Law to purify Israel. God used water to both guide and purify Israel. The cloud was a guide.

 

[RandyPNW]

So how were the thousands of Jews BAPTIZED unto Moses ?

And just where is the NEW COVENANT mentioned in 1 Cor 10:1 and 2 ?

Your thoughts , and where the New COVENANT is mentioned and is it for the BODY of CHRIST ?

dan p

The Hebrews were all brought under the Law of Moses at Sinai--that's how. I never said the New Covenant was mentioned in 1 Cor 10.1-2. So I don't know why I should prove it's there?

The New Covenant is very carefully explained in the book of Hebrews. And yes, it was for both Israel and all nations who have been spiritually baptized into Christ, ie Saved. I hope that helps?

 

[bling]

New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:

I do not know of any Christian group, who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation, since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them and others.

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.

Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.

 

[Hawkins]

From the perspective of covenant, Baptism may signify a switch from an older covenant to the New Covenant. At the end though, New Covenant is all about a subjective Judgment from Jesus that He determines whether your Baptism is valid or your reason of not to baptisized is forgivable.

Baptism is a parallel of circumcision to the Jews. It may signifiy a switch from an older (gentile) covenant to a Jewish covenant.

So to ask someone not to be baptized may be an act to risk others' life or death.