What does the book of Revelation “reveal” ?

[oikonomia]

On the day the two witnesses are resurrected, Satan is sitting on a (false) throne on holy ground in Jerusalem, rather than Rome.

Thankyou for these verses. I say Revelation 17 is about the religious Babylon and chapter 18 is about the material Babylon.
Some overlap occurs. Let me comment on your evidences for Babylon the Mystery Mother of Harlots being Jerusalem.

It matters not where the Antchrist is sitting. His sitting in Jerusalem's temple, and his kingdom being plunged into darkness there doesn't effect his own attack against thre RCC and theistic Christiandom at the start of the GT. Nor does it prevent God at the close of the GT from pouring out vengence on the city of Rome.

2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Yes. And in so exalting himself it is necessary that he persecute to the uttermost the RCC mother of Christiandom's sects, divisions, and denominations. For God will clearly allowed this to happen under His sovereignty. Rather than God directly destroy that religious Babylon He indirectly does so by the mind of Antichrist and his loyalists. It is right there is chapter 17.

They will make war with Christ the Lamb.
But before that they will make war on religious Babylon tearing down theism and the world's leading theistic religious system the RCC.

WAR WITH THE LAMB:
"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom but receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they give thier power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. And he said to me, The waters which you saw, where the woman sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." (17:12-15)

WAR WITH RELIGIOUS BABYLON:
"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will HATE THE HARLOT and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire. For God has PUT IT INTO THEIR HEARTS TO PERFORM HIS MIND and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accompished. And the woman whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (17:16-18)

The apostate countereit wife is called a "harlot" whom Christ does not acknowledge is His wife.
His people - "My people" (18:4) have been carried away captive into her.
The Lord said the proper place to worship Him is not in Jerusalem or on this or that mountain but in the regenerated human spirit which is made one spirit with the Holy Spirit. That mingled spirit with God the Spirit is the Christian Jerusalem, the place to worship God in spirit and reality.

"Jesus said to her, Woman,believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem shall you worship the Father.
. . . But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and reality; for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and reality." (John 4:21,23-24)

Peoples and miltitudes and nations and tongues all over the world have been led astray from spirit and reality to be the waters upon which the Harlot sits holding genuine believers and unbelievers alike in a captivity of idolatry, mixture, apostasy under the banner of Christ as a facade.
The RCC is riding on peoples and nations throughout the world.

While some Christians await Christ to vindicate such a situation, rather under His sovereignty He allows this situation to be destroyed and His people to flee from it back to Spirit and reality in the beginning of the GT. The great revival some await they do not realize will be characterized by the destruction under Antichrist of the alternative apostate situation that holds Christians in a Babylonian Captivity of superstition.

Antichrist and the ten horns will persecute the apostate Roman Church at the beginning of the gresta trbulation in conjuction with Antichrist proclaiming from Jerusalem that he alone is God. The untold wealth of the RCC will be robbed and Christians in general deemed as a public nuisance against world progress under Antichrist. In this destruction the apostate Christiandom's Mother will be exposed and made naked. Members will be killed and they will "burn her utterly with fire" meaning that they will annihilat religious Babylon altogether.

It is of God that this will occur. And this kind of destruction should not be considered martyrdom but the avenging judgment of God.

"For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished." (17:17)

Jesus has to be in Jerusalem to resurrect the two witnesses.

Why do you say this? Revelation 11:11,12 just says a voice out of heaven commands them to rise and go up.

"And after the three and a half days, the breath of life out of God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; . . . And they heard a loud voice out of heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them." (See Rev. 11:11,12)

The fallen angel that killed then would still be there, rather than going to the Vatican in Rome. The chapter this comes from give a list of Nations that start with Jerusalem. The cup of wrath sets the pattern for the fire and plagues of the 7 vials. If Rome was the centre of sin why is she not even mentioned?

Religious Babylon is the meaning of the harlot in chapter 17.
Material Babylon is the meaning of the woman in chapter 18.
Some overlap occurs.

Compare:
"The waters which you saw, where the HARLOT sits, are peoples and miltitudes and nations and tongues." (17:15)
"And the WOMAN whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (17:18)

Jer:25:9:
Behold,
I will send and take all the families of the north,
saith the LORD,
and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon,
my servant,
and will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof,
and against all these nations round about,
and will utterly destroy them,
and make them an astonishment,
and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

This is good verse to show God's judgment upon Israel.
But it is not a good verse to show God's judgment upon BABYLON, either in the OT sense or the NT sense.

The good verse you submit have not YET come to the judgment of BABYLON.
That judgment is to follow in the OT after Israel is disciplined under Nabuchadressar's invasion and captivity.

.
Jer:25:17-18:
Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand,
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the LORD had sent me:
To wit,
Jerusalem,
and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
and the princes thereof,
to make them a desolation,
an astonishment,
an hissing,
and a curse;
as it is this day;

The same applies to this passage. This is about the OT judgment of Jerusalem and cities of Judah.
It is not about the afterward and to come judgment upon BABYLON.

God says in essence "If the place where I put My name is under judgment for thier sins, do not think other societies in abject rebellion to Me will be exempt. Nebuchadressar usage at the hands of God will fall upon them as well.

What you need as a prpper parallel are the subsequent verses on the judgment of BABYLON.
Then you are comparing apples to apples for Revelation 17, 18.

Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.

There is no shortage of OT passages about God's punishing Israel for their forsaking Him.
The comparison which I think would go to estasblish Bebylon the Mystery Harlot being judged in Revelation would the OT passages on the judgment of BABYLON.

Have you ever notice in Zechariah God saying ironically that He is very angry with the nations for troublng Israel ?!?
I mean God says "Hey I was only little angry. Now I have returned with vehemence to restart my program with Israel. And how dare the nations be at ease when My capital still lies in waste."

"And I am extremely angry with the nations, who are at ease; for I was only a little angry; but their help increawes the affliction. Therefore thus says Jehovah, I return to Jerusalem with compassions; My house will be built in it, declares Jehovah of hosts, and a measureing line will be stretched over Jerusalem." (Zech 1:16)

You see, though He used Babylon under Necuchadressar to punish Israel, He final heart was to return her to glory. His PURPOSE is with Israel and not her eternal destruction.

"So the angel who spoke to me said to me, Cry out, saying, Thus says Jehovah of hosts: I am greatly jeaolous for Jerusalem and for Zion. And I am exrememly angry with the nations, who are at ease." (vs.14,15a)

I ask you to compare this with the attititude of jubilation at the smoke of Babylon going up forever and ever in Revelation 19.

"And after these things I heard as it were a loud voice, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and HE avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand. And a second time they saud, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever." (Rev. 19:1-3)

This jugded harlot is gone FOREVER.
We cannot say God's discipline of Jerusalem or Israel results in such TOTAL everlasting destruction.

7 Mounts found in Scripture that are associated with Jerusalem:

https://www.[bless and do not curse...aps/map-of-jerusalem-and-its-seven-hills.html

Jerusalem's Seven Hills Map​

Jerusalem will be called the joy of the whole earth even after her period of chastizement.
We cannot say that Babylon the Great Mystery religion OR the city of Rome will be afterwards "the joy of the whole earth."

"Great is Jehovah, And much to be praised in the city of our God,
In the mountain of His holy mountain.
Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth.
Is Mount Zion the sides of the north,
The city of the great King." (Psalm 48:1,2)

After discipline, in the millennium Jerusalem is the perfection of beauty and the earth's joy.
So utter annhilation due to Babylon religious and material are not the appropriate destiny of Israel and Jerusalem.
Jerusalem's smoke of judgment does not go up forever and ever. Nor are the Hallelujahs of the bride in Revelation 19 praises for the eternal annihilation of Jerusalem.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I don’t really know how to interpret the passage of the “two witnesses”. The only other scriptural allusion that I can find is zechariah 4. As such, any interpretation I could offer is speculative.

But as to Babylon the great city, or apostate Israel, being found in revelation 11.

1.) vs 2: the holy city being trampled by the gentiles for 42 months. This would allude to Christ’s words in the olivet discourse from Luke 21:24 of Jerusalem being trampled by the gentiles

2.) vs 8: the great city “where their Lord was crucified” would also allude to Jerusalem and apostate Israel’s involvement in Christ’s death.

Same people:
Re:11:4:
These are the two olive trees,
and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Zec:4:14:
Then said he,
These are the two anointed ones,
that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

It promotes they are the only ones combatting Satan. The 144,000 and Gentile believers are hidden from Satan. That kind of eliminated them warring against the forces of evil during that 42 months the beast is given.

Re:12:13-16:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

 

[claninja]

Same people:
Re:11:4:
These are the two olive trees,
and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Zec:4:14:
Then said he,
These are the two anointed ones,
that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

It promotes they are the only ones combatting Satan. The 144,000 and Gentile believers are hidden from Satan. That kind of eliminated them warring against the forces of evil during that 42 months the beast is given.

Re:12:13-16:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness,
into her place,
where she is nourished for a time,
and times,
and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth,
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

In light of the purpose of revelation, which was to reveal to things as quickly to occur for the time was near (revelation 1:1-3), I wouldn’t know how to fit that with what you are proposing.

But we do agree that Babylon’s identity is found in apostate Israel. So there’s that.

 

[claninja]

This jugded harlot is gone FOREVER.
We cannot say God's discipline of Jerusalem or Israel results in such TOTAL everlasting destruction.

Old covenant apostate israel is gone forever.

 

[oikonomia]

Certainly this group of 144,000 hails from the Old Testament Israelite tribes. They were meant to give evidence that the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ was a fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises.

Yes. I think this is good understaning.

The OT saints expected a bodily resurrection. The physical presence of the resurrected 144,000 First-fruits Old Covenant saints in those first-century days was a confirmation of the New Covenant in Christ's blood. The number of 144,000 was a literal one as well as a symbolic one. But there was not two different groups of 144,000. The 144,000 were the same group in both Revelation 7 and Revelation 14.

Well 3Res, I already voiced skepticism about 144,000 people resurrecting when Jesus rose in Matthew 27. I thinkk you make entyirely too much out of two verses mentioned quite as an aside from the main point of Christ's resurrection. I don't think I'll speak further to this.

But that the Firstfruits of ch. 14 are also the 144,000 sealed in ch. 7 maybe I'll talk more of. I admit that for years I assumed that they must be the same. But I changed eventually. The reasoning that the Firstfruits of ch. 14 are resurrected is rather circular. "They're resurrected because they were resurrected" is not good enough. Neither is it solid that the 144,000 sealed Israelites DIED at all during the GT a given.

Preservation through the impending tribulation is what I see in Revelation 7.

"And I saw another Angel ascend from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to wwhom it was given to HARM the earth and ther sea, Saying, Do not harm the earth nor the sea nor the trees until we have sealed the slavesd of our God upon their foreheads." (7:2,3)

Preservation and Protection THROUGH empending calamity rather than sure martyrdom is what comes across to me.
On the other hand the 144,000 FIrstfruits of ch. 14 appear physically where their heart has been during their lives.

"These are they who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins, These are they who follow the Lamb weherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firtfruits to God and to the Lamb; And in their mouth no lie was found, for they are without blemish." (14:4,5)

Inserting that we know they DIED is ad hoc. Nothing in the passage insists this.
That is their minds set on the things above where Christ is. We do not see them GOING UP although it is obvious that they are in heaven.
The message is that while on earth they LIVED a heavenly, transcendent, uplifted mind following Him who sits in the heavens, the Lamb, who leads them through the world and right UP into His actual presence in the third heavens.

That they died and resurrected beause they died and resurrected is you circular argument. And it all based upon believing 144,000 resurrected OT saints spent time in the city of Jerusalem.

What about ones who DIED faithful to the Lamb during the GT. Well, mainly we see THEM is chapter 15 as those standing above the sea of glass mixed with fire - the lake of fire.

"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name, standing on the glassy sea having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty; righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations, Who will not fear Your nae? For You alone are holy; for all thenations will come and worship before Youm for Your righeous acts have been made manifest." (Rev. 15:2-4)

These are the late overcomers. Their standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire signifies
1.) They are resurrected from the dead;
2.) They are raptured to the heavens (in 4:6 there are no people standing on the glassy sea.
3.) They are above God's fiery judgment.

They chose not to fear the threats of Antichrist. And as judment swollowed up Pharoah and his army persuing the Exodus Isrealites so the wrath of God's judgment upon Antichrist has swallowed His enemies while His overcomers have stood on the shore observing the prior JUDGED army.

Revelation is all-incompasing and shows different COMPONENTS of His people obtaining salvation.

Some are preserved alive through the GT - 144,000 sealed Israelites (ch. 7)
Some are raptured alive just before the GT - 144,000 appearing suddenly in heaven as Firstfruits, early RIPENED crop. (ch.14)
Some are killed and resurrected to stand above the lake of fire being victorious as late ovecomers on the sea of glass. (ch. 15)
Some are deceased yet also raptured to the third heavens upon being resurrected before the GT- the Manchild. (ch. 12)
Some are taken either resurrected of alive at the END of the GT - the Harvest of (ch. 14).

In such a manner God gives visions to the seer covering varied components of His elect under different scenarios.

There are the dead average and the dead overcomers covered.
There are the living average and the living overcomers covered.

There are those of past ages to whom God is faithful covered.
There are thoe living at the end of the age to whom God is faithful covered.

There are those who rise to the expected standard of victory in a timely manner covered.
There are those who EVENTUALLY come along to what they should have been anyway covered.

This is the manner in which we should discrminated the different meanings of different signs in Revelation - all incompassing and coverning
many anges of many situations.

 

[oikonomia]

And there is more than just the two verses of Matthew 27:52-53 that speak about these resurrected First-fruits individuals. Their footprints are all over the NT. You have just been reading over the texts without recognizing them for who they were.

"Recognizing?" That is what you want to prove, that there is something of your interpretation to "recognize."
And I am aware that some appeal to Ephesians about a train of captive foes led to heaven as representative of this same theory.
Believe it if you are so convinced. I don't think Mathew 27:52,53 is that significant.

I'll let you know if I ever change my mind if I'm around here then.

When discussing Hebrews 9:27-28, this decrees that NO ONE could expect to be "translated" without dying. And all those examples you gave are only your assumption that those individuals died again. Where is your proof that an individual can die twice? There is none in scripture. Chapter and verse, please. But I'm not holding my breath.

No, Hebrews 9:27-28 doesn't establish that death must precede transfiguration.
If anything Hebrews 9:27-28 establishes that no one is exempt from divine judgment.

"And in as much as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment . . . " (v.27)

From where do you derive the insertion Ie. "And in as much it is reserved for men to die before being transfigured."
That is your arbitrary reading into the passage a concept YOU hold.

Now you must know that Paul simply stated that we must all be CHANGED.
He did not say we all must slep in death and then be changed.
Rather it SOME are changed in resurrection and rapture and some are changed simply in rapture.

"Behold I tell you a mystery: WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we will all be CHANGED." ( Cor. 15:51)

Excuse me for raising my voice. It is only for emphasis.
The Apostle Paul wrote that "we will not all sleep."
You come along correcting him - Ie. "No, we will not be changed unless we DO all sleep."

Should I take YOUR word or the word of the Apostle Paul here? Hebrews 9:27,28 can't be appealed to to alter the clear prophecy of Paul.

" . . . We will not all sleep, BUT WE ALL WILL BE CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptivle, and we willbe changed." ( 1 Cor. 15:52,53)

Isn't it clear to you? The word "But" establishes that ALL will be changed - those who are asleep in Hades and those who are not but alive when the last trumpet sounds.

I think that whatever problem you MAY Be trying to addressed is addressed in other ways.

 

[oikonomia]

This Hebrews 9:27-28 text absolutely contradicts the assumption that a saint can die twice.

I already gave you several historical instances of saints who most likely died physically more than once.
What are we suppose to do, sweep that under some rug?

As a matter of fact the point the writer of Hebrews is making that Christ ALSO succomb to this rule of death and judgment in that His death was God's JUDGMENT upon all who trust in Him.

"And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment. SO CHRIST ALSO . . . having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him apart from sin, unto salvation."

The ONCE death of men here is used to prove CHRIST ONCE death as all men, was to accomplish redemption from sin.
He DIED once for all who are trusting Him. We can be assured that our past sins have be JUDGED on His cross in His death for us.

It is ad hoc for you to try to derive from Hebrews 9:27,28 some rule about having to DIE before being changed in transfiguration.

It's impossible, because it is a promise that for those who are worthy to experience resurrection from the dead, "neither CAN they die anymore, for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:36).

Rather ad hoc stretching of comparisons 3Res.
Do you realize the lengths to which you are going in order to contradict the PLAIN word of the Apostle Paul - " . . . We will not all sleep, BUT WE ALL WILL BE CHANGED"?

You are incorrect. Paul most definitely connects this "change" in the twinkling of an eye to a time when "The DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible", and when "DEATH is swallowed up in victory". Those who have not experienced a physical death yet are never promised a translation change without dying.

He does not say ALL HAVE TO BE DEAD. He says some living - CHANGED and some asleep- CHANGED.

God hates death, God hates death more than He hates sin.
That some live to be changed is glorious to Him. They sing a new song which no one can sing unless they have that experience (Rev. 14:3).

It doesn't say they are the ONLY ones singing in rejoicing. But it does say their song is UNIQUE.
It is curious that you wish to rob the Firstfruits of this unique experience- That is of walking alive right up into God's heaven as Enoch was not found but taken by God.

It is curious that you raise objection to this possibility with stretches of comparing the verses you appeal to.

Ripeness in the indwelling divine life is a matter of what is hidden blossoming out and finally being manifested.
On the Mount of Transfiguration Jesus was transfigured before them as a PREVIEW of the coming kingdom.
He showed them that while He was yet ALIVE concealed within the appearance of a fallen man was the glory of God.

In a sense He "unzipped" Himself, so to speak, to give the three disciples a glimps of the hidden spendour of divinity living in Him.
But such a possibility for the rest of us is not possible until He accomplish redemption through His death and resurrection.
SO He told them not to tell the vision to anyone until He accomplish His redemptive death and resurrection.

"And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead." (Matt. 17:9)

 

[oikonomia]

A "transfiguration" or "translation" is what the one-and-only example of Enoch experienced.

We know that Enoch was taken off the earth by God.
We know that Elijah experienced the same kind of catching away by God OFF of the earth.
Good enough.

It is interesting that it says Enoch was not. This can be compared I think to Paul saying that it was no longer he that lived but Christ that lived in him. And He wanted to be found in Christ. It was not he who lived. It was Christ living in him. Christ blended and united with the new "I" of Paul.

"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)

Paul was like a NT Enoch. Paul himself was not. Paul could not be found anymore. Paul had been crucified with Christ. Henceforth Paul lived as a grafted plant into a healthy tree lives. He lived his new live in unity, oneness, and mingling with His indwelling Lord Jesus.

Paul was ready to be raptured. But God kept him here for our sakes.
This is the sense we should have of Enoch not being found.
He learned that God was the great I AM. And Paul also learned that he died with Christ and now his new "ego" - his new "I" was Christ living in him.

Why do you think there could be none ready for transfiguration at the end times?
It is a glory to God that SOME will have simply LIVED a "no longer I but Christ" life and be ready for change in when He comes during their lifetime. If it is not a majority then it is a remnant - a minority. What makes you want to rob them of this prize?

If YOU wish only to DIE before being transfigured then that is YOUR peculiar preference.
There is no need to insist that we all have to have that expectation because you do.

All the rest of humanity up to the close of fallen man's history on this planet either have died or will die the ONE TIME, (NOT twice) as is appointed unto mankind. This was compared exactly to how Christ Jesus died just the one time. Nobody is going to skip out of this death of the body before they enter heaven in a glorified, resurrected body changed into an incorruptible state.

No that is not true at all. And that some live right up until Christ comes to transfigure them is both a glory to Christ and a utter SHAME to Satan. It is true that wll who would follow Christ must learn to die to self. That is to follow the Lord rather than to follow the self.

Paul said he died DAILY. He counted that he had been crucified with Christ. He put the self centered soul-life to the cross and lived by the indwelling Lord.

I do not think that transfiguration obviates that no further dealing from God could be due to the redeemed in the next age.
The judgment seat of Christ reveals some saved and rewarded and some are saved and suffer loss of some kind during the millennial kingdom.

Translation, rapture, tramsfiguration do not tie God's hands so that He cannot further deal with His sons under a different flavor in the age of the kingdom.

Those being "taken" and those being "left" is not speaking about a rapture in those days when the believers were to flee Jerusalem for the mountains.

No it is not. It is rapture of those who are normal in thier expecting overcoming of average and lukewarm superfiscial walk with Christ.
The passages speak of TAKEN and LEFT because of living in the presence of the Lord Jesus by habit.
They have developed a lifestyle of abiding in the Lord, abiding in His indwelling presence even in the mundane duties of typical life.

Now the disciples asked WHERE are these being taken ANYWAY. And His answer is that for their vigilance the ready and watching will accompany Him in His defeat of His enemies. At Armageddon Christ WITH His selection of a Gideon like little army will swoop down on Antichrist as birds of prey. This is thier REWARD both in the Gospels and in Revelation.

"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. And they answered and said to Him, WHERE, Lord?
And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together." (Luke 17:36,37)

"For as the lightness comes forth from the east and shines to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be, Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures shall be gathered together." (Matt. 24:27,28)

In the context of Matthew 24:15, 21 the implication is that at the end of this age Antichrist will be the cause of the great tribulation. It is he who needs to be judged and destroyed, As all the people in Adam are dead (1 Cor. 15:22), so the evil Antichrist with his evil armies, who wage war against the Lord at Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21). In the eyes of God Antichrist is just a stinking corpse good for the vultures appetite.

And in the Scriptures both the Lord and those who trust in Him are likened to the eagle (Exo. 19:4; Deut. 32:11; Isa, 40:31), and the swift destroying armies are also liked to the flying eagles (Deut, 28:49; Hosea 8:1 NASV). So the vultures of Matt, 24:28 and Luke 17:37 are raptorial of the eagle kind. The description must refer to Christ and His overcoming army from heaven (Rev. 19), who will come as a swift flying army to war against Antichrist.

This priveledge is not determined for all saved Jews nor for all saved Christians.
It is a promise to those thus rewarded because they have been victors of grace reigning in life during their lives as believers.
They are rewarded both with early rapture and the accompanying of Christ to destroy Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon.
They were raptured secretively before the tribulation. They are manifested at the end with coming with Christ even as lightening dramatically fills the sky.

This also indicates that Christ will appear to the earth with His overcoming saints WHERE Antichrist is with his armies. He and His army of overcomers will appear swiftly from the air like vultures, This correpsonds with the lightneing flash in the foregoing verses.

In the vision of Ezekiel those in harmony with God move in coordination and flash forth like lightning.
Thus of all the quantity of saints Christ reserves some quality of those overcomers who have not nullified His ample grace to be normally victorious.

It was about the citizens of Judea being either taken captive and imprisoned, or being left to run for their lives from the Roman and Zealot armies. No rapture to heaven is discussed at this time of being "taken". It was descriptive of a war where the eagles (of the Roman army insignia) were being gathered together over a carcass.

As you can see. Not all taken suffer this. But are taken to be a Gideon like army accomplishing a great strategic battle for the sake of the whole in the spiritual warfare.

If you do not wish to be raptured that is YOUR business. Early rapture of the vigilant is the response of OBEDIENCE to the command of Jesus that we beseech the Lord that we be worthy to escape the things which are about to come to pass and stand before the Son of Man.

"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)

To live unto and petition the Lord that we be counted worthy to be rapture to escape the GT and stand in heaven before the Son of Man is the response of OBEDIENCE to the Lord's command, not the wishful thinkiing of cowardice. If you don't want to expect or beseech the Lord Jesus for rapture, that is YOUR business. Don't insist that we all must share YOUR preference and expectation,

The Firstfruits standing before the Lamb and His Father before the GT testifies that SOME will indeed be counted worthy to escape the GT. And that they are accompanying Him as swift birds of prey, like vultures or eagles at Armageddon, testifies Christ's pleasure with their vigilance and thier petitions.

I retire for now. We can talk more about this latter.
And the Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well 3Res, I already voiced skepticism about 144,000 people resurrecting when Jesus rose in Matthew 27. I thinkk you make entyirely too much out of two verses mentioned quite as an aside from the main point of Christ's resurrection. I don't think I'll speak further to this.

I needed to include the Ephesians 4:8-12 text which spoke about the "multitude of captives" (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints) which Christ brought out of the grave on the day He ascended (on His resurrection day). That "multitude of captives" Jesus was leading out of the grave which were given as "gifts to men" were composed of those acting as apostles (simply meaning "sent ones"), prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These resurrected individuals called "gifts" were given for a distinct purpose: "For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..."

The Old Covenant had the high priesthood ordained to offer gifts as well as sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3). "It was also a necessity" that the Lord Jesus as God's anointed Great High Priest "also have somewhat to offer". The glorified, resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints were our high priest Christ Jesus's gifts to the church in those first-century days. This is not an "aside" from the main point of Christ's resurrection; it is a vital part of it, as fulfilling all the symbolism of the OT in His Great High Priesthood role of the NT.

Inserting that we know they DIED is ad hoc. Nothing in the passage insists this.
That is their minds set on the things above where Christ is. We do not see them GOING UP although it is obvious that they are in heaven.

Well, yes, the passage does say that they were "redeemed out of the earth". That means out of the dirt. Out of the dust of the grave. A bodily resurrection. The "First-fruits" of the harvest of the saints to be bodily-resurrected out of the ground.

These are portrayed - not in heaven yet - but as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion (the Temple in Zion, the city of David on earth). No bodily-resurrected or glorified saints would be allowed entrance into heaven's temple until the 7 plagues were finished (Revelation 15:8). And that had not happened yet in Revelation 14.

I already gave you several historical instances of saints who most likely died physically more than once.
What are we suppose to do, sweep that under some rug?

"Most likely" died twice? No, that is your assumption, and it has absolutely no verses at all in scripture to prove it. Moreover, it directly contradicts the requirement in Hebrews 9:27-28 that ALL mankind is appointed to die the ONE TIME. NOT TWICE. This was said to be a direct correlation to Christ's ONE TIME death - not twice.

Also, Paul never, ever taught that there would be any expectation for the saints to avoid passing through physical death that one time before their bodies were glorified. To try sidestepping the inevitability of this death appointment for all mankind echoes the deception that the Serpent gave to Eve, when he said "Ye shall not surely die..." Everyone on this planet must surely die physically the ONE TIME, since we are all considered to be "IN ADAM", and "in Adam" all die.

Even Job knew about this "appointment" with physical death before being resurrected when he wrote, "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the years of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." (Job 14:13-14).

The 1 Thess. 4 rapture text as well as the 1 Corinthians 15 passage about the "change" expected for the saints has been grossly misinterpreted to include a translation of the living without going through this appointed death process the ONE TIME.

 

[oikonomia]

I needed to include the Ephesians 4:8-12 text which spoke about the "multitude of captives" (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints) which Christ brought out of the grave on the day He ascended (on His resurrection day).

Now you mention all wonderful verses. But for the purpose you utilize them, doesn't follow,'

That "multitude of captives" Jesus was leading out of the grave which were given as "gifts to men" were composed of those acting as apostles (simply meaning "sent ones"), prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

That's all well and good. It doesn't mean the 144,000 raised OT saints were those gifts to the new testament church.
That is a leap. By the way "shepherd and teachers" is one function, not two.

And Paul said that he and his co-workers were captives led by Christ in His triumphal procession. So the phrase is not restricted to some OT saints who were resurrected supposedly when Jesus rose.

"But thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of the knowlege of Him through us in every place." (2 Cor. 2:14)

These resurrected individuals called "gifts" were given for a distinct purpose: "For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..."

Wonderful verses. I am glad you believe them. They do not mean 144,000 resurrected OT saints went to heaven after the whole myriad of them appeared in Jerusalem.

The Old Covenant had the high priesthood ordained to offer gifts as well as sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3). "It was also a necessity" that the Lord Jesus as God's anointed Great High Priest "also have somewhat to offer".

Again, a another wonderful truth. It is not a proof text however, that 144,000 OT saints appeared in Jerusalem.

The glorified, resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints were our high priest Christ Jesus's gifts to the church in those first-century days. This is not an "aside" from the main point of Christ's resurrection; it is a vital part of it, as fulfilling all the symbolism of the OT in His Great High Priesthood role of the NT.

Nothing I said underminds His vital resurrection. What I said contradicts your teaching of 144,000 OT saints rising and going into Jerusalem. Do not regard my disblief in this theory as non-appreciation of Christ's High Priestly ministry. The relationship you draw to link the two matters is fanciful at best.

Don't argue that if I don't believe the theory then I don't believe in gifts given to the church for the perfecting of the saints to do the work of the ministry. Besides, being OT saints they wouldn't know that much about the new testament ministry anyway.

Well, yes, the passage does say that they were "redeemed out of the earth". That means out of the dirt. Out of the dust of the grave. A bodily resurrection. The "First-fruits" of the harvest of the saints to be bodily-resurrected out of the ground.

That is an an interpretation that "purchased from the earth" has to mean resurrection from the dirt of the earth.
These rationals are stretches which are not even worth to make.

"Purchased from the earth" just entails full redemption. And full redemption does NOT have a requirement that everyone redeemed must first have their heart stop beating and be buried in the earth.

These are portrayed - not in heaven yet - but as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion (the Temple in Zion, the city of David on earth). No bodily-resurrected or glorified saints would be allowed entrance into heaven's temple until the 7 plagues were finished (Revelation 15:8). And that had not happened yet in Revelation 14.

No they are in heaven. The sound of their voice comes from where? . . . OUT OF HEAVEN.
"And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; . . . " (14:2a)

Where are the four living creatures and the elders? They are not on the earthly hill in Jerusalem. They are seen in heaven -Revelation 4,5.
". . . there was a throne set IN HEAVEN . . . and around the throne there were twenty four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting . . .and around the throne, there were four living creatures full of eyes . . . etc. " (Refer to Rev. 4:1-6)

The Firstfruits were raptured to heaven WHERE these elders and creatures were seen by John.
"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders." (14:3a)
And their being "purchased FROM the earth" only reinforces this. They are no longer on the earth but at a heavenly Mt. Zion.

"These were purchased from among men" (v.4) also indicates that they are no longer "among men" living on the earth, including in the Holy Land.

"Most likely" died twice? No, that is your assumption, and it has absolutely no verses at all in scripture to prove it.

If you have a positive proof that Lazarus did not die, bring it forth.
The same goes for the several other people raised in Scripture.

If you have definite proof that that expireing from which they were raised by God was their ONE death for each of them, then bring it to me. Do it in your next post. And if you can't then it is YOUR assumption that they never died again. I'll go with the assumption that they did unless you specifically prove otherwise.

Moreover, it directly contradicts the requirement in Hebrews 9:27-28 that ALL mankind is appointed to die the ONE TIME. NOT TWICE. This was said to be a direct correlation to Christ's ONE TIME death - not twice.

We've been through this before.
This is now just repetition.

Also, Paul never, ever taught that there would be any expectation for the saints to avoid passing through physical death that one time before their bodies were glorified. To try sidestepping the inevitability of this death appointment for all mankind echoes the deception that the Serpent gave to Eve, when he said "Ye shall not surely die..." Everyone on this planet must surely die physically the ONE TIME, since we are all considered to be "IN ADAM", and "in Adam" all die.

Your emotional appeal and guilt by wild association doesn't prove your point either. It is just being frantic.

Tie me to the Serpent at your own peroragative.
First Corinthains is plain - "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, BUT . . . we will all be changed."(1 Cor. 15:51)

You wish he had written - "We WILL ALL SLEEP and be changed."
What he wrote was "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed."

You can hand wave "Serpent! Serpent!" all you wish. I will stay with what is written - "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed."
If it rubs your theological fur the wrong way, that's too bad.

Even Job knew about this "appointment" with physical death before being resurrected when he wrote, "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the years of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." (Job 14:13-14).

This is a great verse also. It doesn't prove "We WILL ALL SLEEP in death AND THEN ONLY . . . be changed".
That is YOUR unbiblical theory.

The 1 Thess. 4 rapture text as well as the 1 Corinthians 15 passage about the "change" expected for the saints has been grossly misinterpreted to include a translation of the living without going through this appointed death process the ONE TIME.

Resurrection and transfiguration OR simple transfiguration are taught in the NT.
Here Paul says we await the Savior from heaven who will transfigure our bodies to be like His own.
Where do you see the PREREQUISITE that such happens ONLY if one has DIED?

"For our commonwealth exists in the hesvernd, from which also we eagerly await a Savior the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself." (Phil. 3:20,21)

There is NO qualifying requirement that ALL have to be physicsally resurrected from the grave first.
Thank God that those who are dead are not excluded.

The same with Romans 8:23 - " . . . but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body."

There is no prerequisite that physical death MUST precede sonship - the redemption of our body.
We are not eagerly awaiting to croak.

If you are eager to die and be buried before transfiguration that is YOUR business.
No such mandatory expectation is place by God on the whole church for this.

Peter was OLD and expecting to expire. So he talked sbout the putting off of his earthly tabernacle - his body.
He made no such mandatory reqquirement that ALL other saints had to only be receive new bodies once they died.

I say again - that if some remnant, some minority of all the saints who have lived on earth, live up to the time of their transfiguration, change, and rapture that is a VICTORY for God's salvation. That is a glory to Christ and utter shame to the Devil.

Your insistence that no one can be transfigured in rapture without first physically dying is like disbelief that Enoch could not prove an EXCEPTION to all dying from Adam onward. Why do you think the Scriipture mentions Enoch this way? It is to see that in spite of the curse of the fall God can be faithful to exempt the one walking with Him rather than living the typical fallen life.

"And Enoch walked with God after he had begotten Methusalah three hundred years . . . And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5:22,24)

The reason Enoch was so intent to walk step by step with God is because Enoch KNEW that world judgment was coming. The name of his son Methusalah means something like "When he dies it will come". When he dies the FLOOD of Noah will come virtually.

And in the last of these days some fully realizing that we are on the very edge of the great tribulation coming will also be a small corporate Enoch. being careful to walk with God. And you insisting that they too MUST die is like insisting Enoch be found dying like generations before and after him. Who are you to school God that He is not allowed to translate the one walking with Him?

If Christ comes to rapture you are you going to ARGUE with Him that you wish to die FIRST??

Ie. "No, Lord Jesus, I do not want you to change my body to be like Your glorious body UNTIL my heart stops beating and I am put into a casket."

You can die to your self life without that. Just turn to your spirit where the Spirit of Jesus comes to live in you.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Now if you INSIST that you not feel saved spirit and soul and body unless you first dissolved into dust, then that is your preference.
There is no reason in the word of God that that is the only hope Christians are permitted to embrace.

 

[BPPLEE]

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must quickly take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

apokálypsis – properly, uncovering (unveiling). See 601(apokalyptō).

602 /apokálypsis ("revelation, unveiling") is principally used of the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word), especially a particular (spiritual) manifestation of Christ (His will) previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered").

Why can’t the universal Church agree on the meanings of the multiple visions in the book of Revelation, if it is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing”?

Why are there hundreds of different and disagreeing interpretations on this eschatological forum alone, if revelation is an “unveiling” or an “uncovering” or a “revealing” of truth?

It is a revealing of Jesus,

 

[Douggg]

The 1 Thess. 4 rapture text as well as the 1 Corinthians 15 passage about the "change" expected for the saints has been grossly misinterpreted to include a translation of the living without going through this appointed death process the ONE TIME.

How could this possibly be misinterpreted?


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[claninja]

It is a revealing of Jesus,

How is it “revealing” Jesus?

Martin Luther didn’t think it was revealing Jesus:

“Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit leads him. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1[:8], “You shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely.” - Martin Luther on revelation.

The purpose of revelation is to reveal what must quickly take place for the time is near (revelation 1:1-3). So in that sense, what is it actually revealing?

 

[keras]

How could this possibly be misinterpreted?


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is wrongly placed by those who believe in a 'rapture to heaven', before any testing or Judgment.
1 Corinthians 15:30-56 is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is only then, that Death is no more. Paralleled by - Revelation 21:4.

 

[Douggg]

It is wrongly placed by those who believe in a 'rapture to heaven', before any testing or Judgment.
1 Corinthians 15:30-56 is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is only then, that Death is no more. Paralleled by - Revelation 21:4.

I was not referring to the timing. I was referring to not all shall taste death.

 

[keras]

I was not referring to the timing. I was referring to not all shall taste death.

You said: How can 1 Cor 15:51-52, possibly be mis-interpreted?
I said: By mis-applying the time when it will happen.

I have proved it is a Prophecy for after the GWT Judgment. Which destroys the false 'rapture' theory.
We must all be tried and tested, to believe in a removal before disaster strikes, is a bad mistake.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That's all well and good. Itr doesn't mean the 144,000 raised OT saints were those gifts to the new testament church.

Yes, it does. The Christ who descended into Hades that day of His crucifixion ascended out of that abyss, and on the same day He raised that group of Matthew 27 Jewish OT saints out of the grave. Those Matthew 27 resurrected OT saints literally stood with the resurrected Christ in the city of Jerusalem that day - on Mount Zion the Temple site, just as Rev. 14:1 said the 144,000 First-fruits did. Christ gave those resurrected ones as gifts to serve in the early church, and Paul acknowledged that the church still had those First-fruits of the Spirit's work of redeemed bodies in Romans 8:23.

Wonderful verses. I am glad you believe them. They do not mean 144,000 resurrected OT saints went to heaven after the whole myriad of them appeared in Jerusalem.

Not immediately, of course. Their transport to heaven was going to be delayed until the next group of newly-resurrected believers would be raised from out of the grave, just as they had been earlier. Together, these two groups of resurrected saints from the "First resurrection" and the second one would meet the Lord together in the air, to be forever with the Lord in heaven. But that transport "rapture" to heaven could not take place for all those resurrected saints until all 7 plagues were finished, as Revelation 15:8 tells us.

If you are eager to die and be buried before transfiguration that is YOUR business.
No such mandatory expectation is place by God on the whole church for this.

Nobody is eager to die and to become "unclothed", as Paul termed it. We as believers don't relish that prospect, even though the soul is immediately "present with the Lord". What we ARE eager for is to be "further clothed" in the final state of a redeemed, resurrected and glorified body made incorruptible. And this physical death is absolutely a mandatory requirement that all must pass through before that corruptible body can be made incorruptible, unless you are willing to cut Hebrews 9:27-28 out of the Bible.

God made ONE exception and one exception only to His own rule in the case of the translation of Enoch for a very specific reason which I will not get into here. I am not dictating to God what He must do. I am merely accepting what God has already decreed and appointed for all born into this world who are "in Adam". If you are descended from fallen Adam, then the physical death sentence given must be carried out, or God is a liar.

If you have a positive proof that Lazarus did not die, bring it forth.
The same goes for the several other people raised in Scripture.

I guess you mean "positive proof that Lazarus or the other saints did not die TWICE". I have already given this proof in the Hebrews 9:27-28 verses. If you don't believe them after my mentioning them a couple times, then nothing I can say will change your mindset.

How could this possibly be misinterpreted?


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Douggg, you and oikonomia are essentially commenting from the same position, so I'll address you both. The particular terms of the "change" is in this verse #51 itself and the ones immediately following. That "change" which was going to take place in the twinkling of an eye is explained by the very next phrase in the same sentence:

"FOR" (Paul was now going to explain the mechanics of how this "change" would happen) "the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." That "change" was only going to take place when the DEAD were raised into an incorruptible condition.

And when that change occurred for the DEAD in Christ, the saying would be brought to pass that "DEATH is swallowed up in victory". DEATH'S sting would be removed, and the GRAVE would have no final victory over all the saints. There is no mention whatever in this context of the living being changed - ONLY the DEAD in Christ being changed.

When the believers were told "We shall NOT ALL sleep", in biblical vernacular this means "NONE of us shall remain asleep". It does not mean that there are exceptions for many believers who will never have to experience the sleep of physical death. That doesn't work, because it directly contradicts Hebrews 9:27-28.

The very same phrasing in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is also used in 1 John 2:19 when John was discussing the antichrists which had left the fellowship. John wrote, "...they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were NOT ALL of us." If we were to apply the same traditional thinking to this verse (about the antichrists that left the fellowship) that is usually applied to "We shall NOT ALL sleep", that creates a real problem. We would then have to assume that the phrase "they were NOT ALL of us" meant that SOME of the antichrists were an exception to that, and actually did belong among the assembly.

John really was saying about the antichrists that "NONE of them were of us", just as Paul was really saying about the saints that "NONE of us shall remain asleep, but we shall ALL be changed." The emphasis in the 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 text is that not a single saint who has physically died will sleep in the grave forever, but ALL will be changed in a bodily resurrection.

 

[Jipsah]

Mainly because of timing," the things that must quickly take place ", is written in the first sentence. Most ignore this and I'm not sure how but I do know why. $.
Blessings.

If you know the why then the how is irrelevant. The most commomly used how is the phrase "but what that really means is.."

 

[Jipsah]

But it wasn't, so the 'soon; refers to God's timing.

Which is to say that it's utterly meaningless to readers of the Revelation.

 

[keras]

Which is to say that it's utterly meaningless to readers of the Revelation.

To you it is, because you have chosen to believe theories that are not supported by scripture.
When Revelation is read in conjunction with all the Bible Prophesies, then a coherent and logical picture emerges. It is when people try to fit in theories like AMill and the 'rapture', that confusion and rejection come in.

Revelation has been a great source of inspiration and comfort for many, as the story ends very well. It is what happens before the ending, that we should take note of, so as to not be in the dark about what God has planned for our future.