oikonomia
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Thankyou for these verses. I say Revelation 17 is about the religious Babylon and chapter 18 is about the material Babylon.On the day the two witnesses are resurrected, Satan is sitting on a (false) throne on holy ground in Jerusalem, rather than Rome.
Some overlap occurs. Let me comment on your evidences for Babylon the Mystery Mother of Harlots being Jerusalem.
It matters not where the Antchrist is sitting. His sitting in Jerusalem's temple, and his kingdom being plunged into darkness there doesn't effect his own attack against thre RCC and theistic Christiandom at the start of the GT. Nor does it prevent God at the close of the GT from pouring out vengence on the city of Rome.
Yes. And in so exalting himself it is necessary that he persecute to the uttermost the RCC mother of Christiandom's sects, divisions, and denominations. For God will clearly allowed this to happen under His sovereignty. Rather than God directly destroy that religious Babylon He indirectly does so by the mind of Antichrist and his loyalists. It is right there is chapter 17.2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
They will make war with Christ the Lamb.
But before that they will make war on religious Babylon tearing down theism and the world's leading theistic religious system the RCC.
WAR WITH THE LAMB:
"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom but receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they give thier power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. And he said to me, The waters which you saw, where the woman sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues." (17:12-15)
WAR WITH RELIGIOUS BABYLON:
"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will HATE THE HARLOT and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire. For God has PUT IT INTO THEIR HEARTS TO PERFORM HIS MIND and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accompished. And the woman whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (17:16-18)
The apostate countereit wife is called a "harlot" whom Christ does not acknowledge is His wife.
His people - "My people" (18:4) have been carried away captive into her.
The Lord said the proper place to worship Him is not in Jerusalem or on this or that mountain but in the regenerated human spirit which is made one spirit with the Holy Spirit. That mingled spirit with God the Spirit is the Christian Jerusalem, the place to worship God in spirit and reality.
"Jesus said to her, Woman,believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem shall you worship the Father.
. . . But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and reality; for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and reality." (John 4:21,23-24)
Peoples and miltitudes and nations and tongues all over the world have been led astray from spirit and reality to be the waters upon which the Harlot sits holding genuine believers and unbelievers alike in a captivity of idolatry, mixture, apostasy under the banner of Christ as a facade.
The RCC is riding on peoples and nations throughout the world.
While some Christians await Christ to vindicate such a situation, rather under His sovereignty He allows this situation to be destroyed and His people to flee from it back to Spirit and reality in the beginning of the GT. The great revival some await they do not realize will be characterized by the destruction under Antichrist of the alternative apostate situation that holds Christians in a Babylonian Captivity of superstition.
Antichrist and the ten horns will persecute the apostate Roman Church at the beginning of the gresta trbulation in conjuction with Antichrist proclaiming from Jerusalem that he alone is God. The untold wealth of the RCC will be robbed and Christians in general deemed as a public nuisance against world progress under Antichrist. In this destruction the apostate Christiandom's Mother will be exposed and made naked. Members will be killed and they will "burn her utterly with fire" meaning that they will annihilat religious Babylon altogether.
It is of God that this will occur. And this kind of destruction should not be considered martyrdom but the avenging judgment of God.
"For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished." (17:17)
Why do you say this? Revelation 11:11,12 just says a voice out of heaven commands them to rise and go up.Jesus has to be in Jerusalem to resurrect the two witnesses.
"And after the three and a half days, the breath of life out of God entered into them, and they stood on their feet; . . . And they heard a loud voice out of heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them." (See Rev. 11:11,12)
Religious Babylon is the meaning of the harlot in chapter 17.The fallen angel that killed then would still be there, rather than going to the Vatican in Rome. The chapter this comes from give a list of Nations that start with Jerusalem. The cup of wrath sets the pattern for the fire and plagues of the 7 vials. If Rome was the centre of sin why is she not even mentioned?
Material Babylon is the meaning of the woman in chapter 18.
Some overlap occurs.
Compare:
"The waters which you saw, where the HARLOT sits, are peoples and miltitudes and nations and tongues." (17:15)
"And the WOMAN whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (17:18)
This is good verse to show God's judgment upon Israel.Jer:25:9:
Behold,
I will send and take all the families of the north,
saith the LORD,
and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon,
my servant,
and will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof,
and against all these nations round about,
and will utterly destroy them,
and make them an astonishment,
and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
But it is not a good verse to show God's judgment upon BABYLON, either in the OT sense or the NT sense.
The good verse you submit have not YET come to the judgment of BABYLON.
That judgment is to follow in the OT after Israel is disciplined under Nabuchadressar's invasion and captivity.
The same applies to this passage. This is about the OT judgment of Jerusalem and cities of Judah..
Jer:25:17-18:
Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand,
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the LORD had sent me:
To wit,
Jerusalem,
and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
and the princes thereof,
to make them a desolation,
an astonishment,
an hissing,
and a curse;
as it is this day;
It is not about the afterward and to come judgment upon BABYLON.
God says in essence "If the place where I put My name is under judgment for thier sins, do not think other societies in abject rebellion to Me will be exempt. Nebuchadressar usage at the hands of God will fall upon them as well.
What you need as a prpper parallel are the subsequent verses on the judgment of BABYLON.
Then you are comparing apples to apples for Revelation 17, 18.
There is no shortage of OT passages about God's punishing Israel for their forsaking Him.Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.
The comparison which I think would go to estasblish Bebylon the Mystery Harlot being judged in Revelation would the OT passages on the judgment of BABYLON.
Have you ever notice in Zechariah God saying ironically that He is very angry with the nations for troublng Israel ?!?
I mean God says "Hey I was only little angry. Now I have returned with vehemence to restart my program with Israel. And how dare the nations be at ease when My capital still lies in waste."
"And I am extremely angry with the nations, who are at ease; for I was only a little angry; but their help increawes the affliction. Therefore thus says Jehovah, I return to Jerusalem with compassions; My house will be built in it, declares Jehovah of hosts, and a measureing line will be stretched over Jerusalem." (Zech 1:16)
You see, though He used Babylon under Necuchadressar to punish Israel, He final heart was to return her to glory. His PURPOSE is with Israel and not her eternal destruction.
"So the angel who spoke to me said to me, Cry out, saying, Thus says Jehovah of hosts: I am greatly jeaolous for Jerusalem and for Zion. And I am exrememly angry with the nations, who are at ease." (vs.14,15a)
I ask you to compare this with the attititude of jubilation at the smoke of Babylon going up forever and ever in Revelation 19.
"And after these things I heard as it were a loud voice, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and HE avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand. And a second time they saud, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever." (Rev. 19:1-3)
This jugded harlot is gone FOREVER.
We cannot say God's discipline of Jerusalem or Israel results in such TOTAL everlasting destruction.
Jerusalem will be called the joy of the whole earth even after her period of chastizement.7 Mounts found in Scripture that are associated with Jerusalem:
Jerusalem's Seven Hills Map
We cannot say that Babylon the Great Mystery religion OR the city of Rome will be afterwards "the joy of the whole earth."
"Great is Jehovah, And much to be praised in the city of our God,
In the mountain of His holy mountain.
Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth.
Is Mount Zion the sides of the north,
The city of the great King." (Psalm 48:1,2)
After discipline, in the millennium Jerusalem is the perfection of beauty and the earth's joy.
So utter annhilation due to Babylon religious and material are not the appropriate destiny of Israel and Jerusalem.
Jerusalem's smoke of judgment does not go up forever and ever. Nor are the Hallelujahs of the bride in Revelation 19 praises for the eternal annihilation of Jerusalem.
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