What does the book of Revelation “reveal” ?

[oikonomia]

What we ARE eager for is to be "further clothed" in the final state of a redeemed, resurrected and glorified body made incorruptible.

If you hope to die or transfiguration is not valid, you go ahead and believe that if you wish.

The hope is also extended to the church in the example of Enoch. He is one of the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11.

"By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained testimony that he had been well pleasing to God." (Hebrews 11:5)

Enoch was just as much an example of faith to emulate as any of the other examples of faith in that chapter.
Whether Enoch knew or did not know he was going to be translated is besides the point. His living by faith bore testimony which God vindicated before the world. And "he should not see death" because God raptured him is the legacy Enoch left.

Some will not see death. And thier testimony will likewise be a warning to the world of Christ's imminent return.
I am sure of it. Enoch is set forth as a hero of faith becasuse the last days of the church age will be similar to the days of Enoch's living.

1.) Growing wickedness. violence,
2.) Encrease of scientific knowledge
3.) The world on the brink of divine judgment.

Enoch is the prototype set forth by God to those who likewise "should not see death" because they live godly at the brink of the Lord's parousia. Likewise Enoch experienced something that had never happened before. But it happened to him.
As a prototype something also new in humsan history will occur to a collective and corporate Enoch like remnant.

WITHIN divine life is working in them gushing up as a well of living water. (John 4:14)
"But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall by no means thirst again, But the water that I shall give him shall become IN HIM a spring of water welling up into eternal life." (John 4:14)

WITHOUT the same divine life will cloth UPON them swallowing up thier mortal by dvine life. (2 Cor. 5:4)
"For indeed, we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)

The "pledge" of such a promise is not our physical death but the indwelling Holy Spirit.
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit." (v.5)

Paul says they are ALWAYS being delivred up to deathas they live. Circumstances, trials, tribulations working in their environment forced them out of themselves and into Christ, the resurrection life.

"For we who live are always being delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in our mortal flesh. So then DEATH OPERATES IN US, but life in you. (4:11,12)

Before his head was removed by Nero, Paul said death was operating in him that the resurrection life of Christ permeated his ministry infusing his audience with life and hope. "Knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the grace, abounding through the many, may cause the thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God." (v.15)

The point is the DEATH operates to manifest resurrection in those living as well as in those physically deceased.
And an ENOCH like remnant WILL testify to the world as well. God was pleased with the way they lived, and took them alive to Himself.

God made ONE exception and one exception only to His own rule in the case of the translation of Enoch for a very specific reason which I will not get into here.

The writer of Hebrews ALREADY got into it. Enoch served the church as a testimony. In the same manner as Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, and the others served the church by THEIR respective testimonies of faith living. Why all the others so serve the church but some exception should be made for Enoch makes no sense.

In fact, Enoch is mentoned before the close of the New Testament again by Jude.

I am not dictating to God what He must do. I am merely accepting what God has already decreed and appointed for all born into this world who are "in Adam". If you are descended from fallen Adam, then the physical death sentence given must be carried out, or God is a liar.

There is more than ONE example. And ONE example is significant in that God used it to speak to the church thousands of years future to Enoch's day USING Enoch as an example.

Enoch was a descendent of Adam.
Elijah was likewise a descendent of Adam.

And they mocked Elisha his pupil. They thought it was a big joke that he might go up as his master had gone up.
The mocking of the naughty pupils of the rapture possibility of Elisha like Elijah is not accidental.
In the last days also MOCKERS come ridiculing the possibility that God would catch up and away his servants.

I guess you mean "positive proof that Lazarus or the other saints did not die TWICE". I have already given this proof in the Hebrews 9:27-28 verses. If you don't believe them after my mentioning them a couple times, then nothing I can say will change your mindset.

You call that proof. That is not proof that the the two women, the two men, the Firstfruits cannot be taken and others left on the brink of the last three and one half years of the present age. Hebrews 9 is not your "proof" that any of the raised saints did not go on to live typical lives that ended in their demise again.

Hebrews 9:27-28 is not proof of your dogma there.

Douggg, you and oikonomia are essentially commenting from the same position, so I'll address you both.

It is both of us who quote the Apostle Paul's position.
" . . . we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51)

Your argument is secondarily with Douggg and I. Your unbelief is primarily with what Paul taught in the New Testament.

The particular terms of the "change" is in this verse #51 itself and the ones immediately following. That "change" which was going to take place in the twinkling of an eye is explained by the very next phrase in the same sentence:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound,and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For THIS corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS mortal must put on immortality." (vs. 42,53)

"THIS corrptible" means he is presently qualified for change while he is writing.
It is God's providence, God's sovreignty that He reserves SOME living to be transfigured at the moment God chooses to bear that testimony to the world.

If God chooses to refrain from the event until another century of centuries future to Paul's writing down the Corinthian letter, that is the divine perogative of God. As in the live of Enoch "the seventh from Adam" God chose the time by His authority WHEN He would take Enoch off the earth alive in translation.

And it is God's authority to choose WHEN He would change some believers, clothing them with life without as well as within in transfiguration. If YOU wish not to participate that is YOUR perculiar business. If you insist that you have to DIE first, that is YOUR peculiar preference. Hebrews 9:27,28 is not your garuantee that this must be the expectation of ALL saints.

"FOR" (Paul was now going to explain the mechanics of how this "change" would happen) "the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." That "change" was only going to take place when the DEAD were raised into an incorruptible condition.

That "the DEAD shall be raised incorrptible" does not give you the ground to argue that [ONLY] the dead receive incorruptiblility. You are applying an artificial limitation.

Paul did not KNOW that he would be dead. He only assures that WITH the dead "We will all be changed." (RcV)

And when that change occurred for the DEAD in Christ, the saying would be brought to pass that "DEATH is swallowed up in victory".

In the previous chapter, Paul being QUITE physically alive, says death was operating in them.

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (4:7)
"Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in our body." (v.10)

God will manifest that through endurance in trial and their longsuffering, though they not expire physically, the life of Jesus will also be manifested in their bodies. This will be a glory to the new testament and a rebuke and shame to the mocking Satan.

Your wanting no participation in such a testimony is not grounds for dictating the same attitude towards the whole church.

Enoch's testimony is INCLUDED in the lessons of faith to the church:

"By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death . . . For before his translation he obtained the testimony tht he was well-pleasing to God. Now without faith it is impossivle to be well-pleasing to Him; for he who comes forward to God must believe that He ism and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him out." (Hebrews 11:5,6)

Those who have faith and seek out God the rewarder, by His sovereignty, will also be vindicated as a warning to the world.
Rapture of some LIVING at the time is a sign to the world.
Resurrection AND rapture is a sign. But rapture apart from physical resurrection is ALSO a sign under God's authority to demonstrate His salvation.

DEATH'S sting would be removed, and the GRAVE would have no final victory over all the saints. There is no mention whatever in this context of the living being changed - ONLY the DEAD in Christ being changed.

All that being quite true doesn't establish the limitation you impose.
Because those in the grave are raised incorruptible is not grounds for a false dichotomy that ONLY those in a grave may be thus changed and clothed with immortality.

The uniqueness of the SONG of celebration sung by the Firstfruits is this. Their experience in history is unique. Virtually no one else has the experience of rapture and transfiguration alive to the third heavens for following Christ on earth as they were rewarded.

"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song EXCEPT the hundred and forty-four thousand who have been purchased from the earth." (Rev. 14:3)

By the way, David surely qualified to be one who appeared raised and gone into Jerusalem and latter ascended into heaven.
But Acts 2:34 says even David had not ascended into heaven.

"For David did not ascend into the heavens . . . " (Acts 2:34a) If 144,000 Old Testament saints arose and first went into Jerusalem and then ascended to heaven, why was not David worthy to be among them? Was it because he was not a virgin?

Do you think you can account for 144,000 virgins in the pages of the Old Testament?
And if the Son of God had not then been incarnated as a man (the Lamb of God) how did they "follow the Lamb" ?

They followed Jehovah of the Old Testament and LOOKED FORWARD to the incarnation of Jesus as the Lamb of God.

When the believers were told "We shall NOT ALL sleep", in biblical vernacular this means "NONE of us shall remain asleep". It does not mean that there are exceptions for many believers who will never have to experience the sleep of physical death. That doesn't work, because it directly contradicts Hebrews 9:27-28.

You have a twisting way of making the passage say the exact OPPOSITE of what it says.
It says "We shall not all sleep". But you see "We shall all sleep".

It is not healthy to try to force the Scripture to say the OPPOSITE of what it says.

 

[Douggg]

You have a twisting way of making the passage say the exact OPPOSITE of what it says.
It says "We shall not all sleep". But you see "We shall all sleep".

Thanks for making all of the arguments, so I don't have to.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

That it is 'this letter':
2Th:2:1-2:
Now we beseech you,
brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled,
neither by spirit,
nor by word,
nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Re:1:1-3:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ,
and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth,
and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If you hope to die or transfiguration is not valid, you go ahead and believe that if you wish.

That status of being "further clothed" with a resurrected body after death is what PAUL hoped for, and I mimic his sentiments.

It seems that you and Douggg (and many others as well) are determined to swallow the serpent's poisoned deception of "Ye shall NOT surely die". You are choosing to throw away Paul's statement that "As in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22). You and everyone else are no exception to this rule. Just as surely as ALL Adam's descendants pass through physical death, even so ALL who are IN CHRIST shall be made alive. ALL of these will be raised to life again and changed. If you believe in the surety that all dead believers in Christ will be made alive, then just as surely the other fact that ALL mankind will die is true also, since these are linked together as both being unalterably true.

It is quite a river of personal commentary you keep dispensing. I can spot a number of errors in it, but don't have time to comment on them all. However, none of what you have written alters the plain fact that the rapture was only going to apply to resurrected individuals who had been "made alive". You are right that it is not healthy for you to say the opposite of scripture, such as Hebrews 9:27-28 and this 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse above.

 

[oikonomia]

That status of being "further clothed" with a resurrected body after death is what PAUL hoped for, and I mimic his sentiments.

It is too much to think Paul longed to physically die SO THAT he would receive a glorified body.
If is more accurate to think Paul was assured the IF. . . IF he should die physically he knew he would receive a gorified resurrected body.

Notice: "For we know that IF our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens." (2 Cor. 5:1)

He begins his discussion on the glorified body with IF. Ie. IF this situation happens, we are assured that THIS will be the solution.
"IF" . . . it so happens that we physically expire - We know that God's remedy for that contingency is THIS.

IE. For THIS situation which may occur, we have hope because we know God has THAT for the solution.
The tone is not "We MUST be physically dead in order to be clothed upon."

That is a step further that you insist upon. Ie. "UNLESS we are physically dead we CANNOT receive a glorified body."
The groaning and longing in verse 2 is not a groaning to DIE but a groaning to receive a glorifed body clothing his mortality.

"For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven." (v2)

It is not "We groan and long to DIE so we can be resurrected with a new body."
Rather it is simply "We groan and long to be clothed with a new body."
He knows that IF it must be that they die, resurrection and a new cothing is assured the believers.

 

[oikonomia]

It seems that you and Douggg (and many others as well) are determined to swallow the serpent's poisoned deception of "Ye shall NOT surely die".

Now if you want to play hardball on this by invoking our alledged cooperation with the Serpent, I am well able to turn the tables on you.
Our battle, in ANY regard, is not against flesh and blood. I am going to hold off a bit more before I expose what detriment your teaching has on God's new testament economy.

I'd like to hold off and give you the benefit of a doubt. I think our examination of whether these things are so or not is constructive for the most part.

I say just this at this point. Because Paul admits that it is a MYSTERY still, I dare not say I understand EVERYTHING about transfiguration.
The natural human mind has its limitations. And the Apostle did not leave us with the impression that there were left NO QUESTIONS at all about this.

"Behold, I tell you a MYSTERY: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51)

We should not fancy that even Paul, let alone the rest of us, have no further questions as to how this will all play out.

For example:
If the SOUL of the died one is still not adaquately transformed, how will just receiving new outward clothing effect him?
God is not mocked. Paul wrote - "Now this I say brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, NEITHER. . . does corruption inherit incorruption." (v. 50)

It is a fact of life which cannot be ignored -
Some Christians die with a soul still inadaquately sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ.
Some die with sins yet unconfessed.
Some die still enslaved to some habit of the fallen man.
Some die with still unforgiveness in thier heart towards someone.
You or I may die with something undealt with by the sanctifying Holy Spirit, which we tolerated to remain.

We have been warned that certain habitual lifestyles which did not undergo repentance will constitute CORRUPTION disqualifying us from inheriting the millennial kingdom. If you think JUST dying and receiving a new body will be the solution, I have no such expectation unwualifyingly, based on Paul's warnings:

WARNING #1: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not iinherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

Do you think simply being clothed with a new body will take care of the unrepented or defeated? I do not.

WARNING #2: "But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh . For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; for these oppose each other that you would not do the things that you desire. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkeness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:16-21)

I do not think dying still DEFEATED in some of these unrepented of lifestyles will be answered SIMPLY because one is resurrected.
Why then the warning? Why not Paul say "IF you die as a Christian defeated still in this moral condition, you are assured to co-reign with Christ because you have a new body."?

WARNING #3: "For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolator) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them . . ." (Eph. 5:5-7)

The solution is sanctification dispositionally while living.
Simple death and resurrection with a clothed upon new body will not circumvent the DEFEATED soul.
There must be some consquences AFTER the resurrection and new body.

What does your teaching do to warn believers that positional saving is part of the matter? And DISPOSITIONAL saving of the soul is the other vital needed part? Do you just say: "Worry not about this. Die and be resurrected with a new body and it matters not whether you were a defeated believer STILL with a soul indulging in the sins of the old life."

Now you want to talk about the subtlety of the serpent.
Consider the subtlety of the serpent in a teaching that overcoming is unnecessary because resurrection will solve all your unsanctified soul's problems.

 

[oikonomia]

You are choosing to throw away Paul's statement that "As in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Paul also says that the living saints in the normal church life have been MADE ALIVE together with Christ, though they not be in graves.

"And you, though dead in your offenses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He MADE ALIVE together with Him, having forgiven us all our offenes." (Col. 2:13)

He did not say that they MUST go to the tomb and rot first or else they cannot be made alive. On this side of the grave they have been "made alive" by Christ the life giving Spirit. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)

You want to speak of the subtlety of the serpent? What about the sneaky thought that we must wait to be "made alive" in Christ until our heart has stopped beating? What does that thought do to the endevour to live a life well pleasing to the Lord by His indwelling Spirit of life?

The New Testament says the Spirit of Christ will GIVE LIFE to our mortal bodies. What subtlety of the serpent influences Christians to believe that that is only true IF they go to the grave? The entire discussion of Romans 8 on the Spirit of Christ giving life is for the benefit of that life giving DURING their sojourn in faith.

"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. SO THEN, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:11-13)

These are the precious benefits of receiving Christ as life on THIS SIDE of the grave.
What subtlety of the serpent nullifies these precious promises declaring you MUST physically DIE first before Christ can give life to your mortal body.

The receiving Christ NOW as living believers is the FIRST benefit. And if it be that we MUST die, we know physical death will be swallowed up in victory.

And in the last days, in ANY days in which obedient disciples are vigilant to walk by the Spirit, God is well pleased.
And He will manifest this pleasure upon some remnant who demonstrate they are worthy to be taken because they so live:

"For just as the days of Noah were, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. For they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark, And they did not know that judgment was coming unto the flood came and took all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one istaken and one is left.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (Matt. 24:37-42)

The exhortation is not to watch they hurry up and physically DIE so they can be clothed with a new body.
The exhortation is that as they LIVE they are to prevail in grace, watching, living as if the Lord may take them AT ANY TIME.
And if some in the past DID expire living with such a hope, it will by no means have been in vain.

It is quite a river of personal commentary you keep dispensing. I can spot a number of errors in it, but don't have time to comment on them all. However, none of what you have written alters the plain fact that the rapture was only going to apply to resurrected individuals who had been "made alive". You are right that it is not healthy for you to say the opposite of scripture, such as Hebrews 9:27-28 and this 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse above.

The taking away in in Matthew 24:37-42 is for those LIVING a victorious life in Christ on the crisp of His parousia.
Rapture striclty speaking means an ecstatic joy. Whether or not being taken is a RAPTURE to them depends upon if they are in JOY to live moment by moment abiding in the Lord. It is not gruesome religious duty. It is that nothing COMPARES to the enjoyment of abiding in Christ.

The rapture is merely them being physically relocated to where their HEART is happily present already by habit day by day.
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and JOY in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:17)

 

[TribulationSigns]

My biblical response to OP is that the book of Revelation absolutely is an unveiling. The very word [apokalupsis] from where we get Apocalypse (or Revelation) very literally means an "uncovering," as in "the disclosure of something," or something being "divulged." The book is very literally entitled a revelation, and what is revealed is things that were before not unknown. For example, as we can see the meaning of the word is demonstrated vividly in Romans 16:

Romans 16:25-26

• "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelationp of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
• But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

The word Revelation there is the exact same word [apokalupsis], and illustrates a revealing of something that was kept secret before that time. Likewise, the book of Revelation (which is perplexing, cryptic, secretive, a mystery to most people) is a revealing of things that were not known before. it is being made known to the people of faith things that are, things that were, and things that would come in the future. The book is not called the "apocalypse" by accident, nor is it coincidental, it is God-inspired because the whole book is to manifest this mystery. These mysteries still remain unrevealed to those who do not study to show themselves approved (2nd Timothy 2:15). These mysteries such as "the mystery of the Kingdom," the "mystery of the Gentiles," the "mystery that we shall not all sleep," "mystery Babylon," etc., etc., are revealed to those who by grace of God possess the Spirit of Truth to discern it. Yes, the book of Revelation is the revealing of mysteries, but cryptic because it is not revealed to all.

God is making known mysteries that were before unknown concerning His magnificent salvation plan, what was written and meant by it in the Old Testament, and what is future prophesy, through cryptic language, imagery, and symbols. It is revealed that the Holy Scriptures all have a "deeper spiritual" aspect to them that is far above the very literal or physical meanings. In this Revelation God wants us to understand the mystery in prophecies so that through His Spirit we might know the eternal nature of the gospel. By using symbols like Lampstands/Candlesticks, locusts, Stars, Dragons, or the Moon in these contexts, it is made manifest that He is talking about things infinitely more important than the physical objects of the world or universe. Through Revelation, it is revealed to us the true deeper Spiritual meaning of these symbols as "representing" truths that were kept secret from the beginning. God Himself gives us (through John) an example from which we can discern the interpretations. He tells the apostle John to write in this revealing:

Revelation 1:19-20

• "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
• The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

For example, "Mystery Revealed!" The 7 stars are "revealed" to symbolize 7 messengers (Not Angels), and the candlesticks or lampstands are revealed to symbolize the 7 churches of these messengers. Mystery Revealed! So yes, the truth of this cryptic language is made known to God's servants so that they will know the truth of the things that were, the things that are, and the things that are going to be. And that's exactly what we find in this book.

No one is going to understand the cryptic language of Revelation except those to whom it is given to understand. I'm sure that you know that you can talk to people until you are blue in the face concerning the meaning of the imagery and language of the book of Revelation, and unless God opens their eyes, they will have their own private interpretations or claim no one knows what it means.

The problem with the natural/carnal view of the Dispensationalists and the Preterists inclination often see the stars, the moon, and the sun as physical objects in heaven. And that's how most "professing" Christians read them throughout the Bible. As physical stars falling, as the literal moon turning blood red, as physical plagues, etc. But the revelation is that these are merely symbols, and those who will understand this are those who have the mind of Christ to discern in spirit and truth. Those who don't see the stars as physical stars, candlesticks as physical candlesticks, the Dragon as a physical Dragon, Babylon as Physical Babylon, the wars, famine, and pestilence as physical, temple as physical temple, or Israel as the physical nation in the middle east, will know these truths because they are spiritually discerned. The Apocalypse or Revelation of what is and is to come is made known to God's chosen few. Which is why it is written in this cryptic, parabolic, enigmatic form. All are not meant to understand, only those whom the scales have been removed from their eyes. ...Spiritually Speaking which I see found lack on this forum!

Matthew 13:10-11

• "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
• He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

It might just as well be said that to you it is given to know the parabolic language of Revelation, but to them it is not given to know. Same principle. Thus by the Word of God you have your answer why this is a secretive or cryptic undiscernible mystery to them (the unsaved) and to us (regenerated by the Spirit) it is given of God to know the truth of it. Revelation is for us who can discern the truth of it. God never meant for it to be understood by all, but by His election. Here's another topical example:

Revelation 17:5

• "And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The mother Of harlots and Abominations of the Earth."

The mother of harlotry and Abominations of the world is a mystery to many, but to those with the Spirit of God it is a portrait of the unfaithful house of God that has turned against her betrothed to what is spiritual harlotry. This is the church in her spiritual adultery having gone whoring from Her God. Her seed or children is not of God but of her spiritual harlotry. Just as God used the exact same language for His congregation in the Old Testament (National Israel) before. It's not something new, it's something revealed through the Spirit and faithful study of God's word. It is the house of God's own people that commit these abominations and play the harlot. Again, and again. We merely need to discern these truths.

Jeremiah 3:6

• "The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot."

Oh well...as saith the preacher, there is nothing new under the sun.

@Sovereign Grace
@Spiritual Jew

 

[oikonomia]

If any brethren might be refreshed, sing along with this song version of "Made Alive with Christ" from Ephesians 6:4-6,8.

 

[Jipsah]

To you it is, because you have chosen to believe theories that are not supported by scripture.

No, to everybody, since "God's Time" means "some unknown period of time". "

When Revelation is read in conjunction with all the Bible Prophesies, then a coherent and logical picture emerges.

Sure. As I've noted before, pretty much everybody but me understands the Revelation perfectly, but for some inexplicable reason mo two of them agree on what it means.

Revelation has been a great source of inspiration and comfort for many

Yeah, one of my brethren was a Methodist preacher who went to minister to an old saint who was gravely ill. In their talk, the old saint said she was blessed and comforted to think that she would live to see the Lord return in another year (this was in 1999). My bro told her that the soon return of our Savior was ever the hope of the Church, and that he hoped he'd live to see it as well. She said well of course you'll see it, He'll be here in a few months! Tom told her that of course He could return at any moment. Short form was she told him that the Lord would return in June of 2000, and if Tom didn't believe it them Tom didn't believe the Bible, was probably an infidel, and she'd never darken the door of his church again. And she didn't, even after 2000 came and went without our Lord's arrival. He hadn't returned when the old saint departed this life, either.

 

[oikonomia]

Yeah, one of my brethren was a Methodist preacher who went to minister to an old saint who was gravely ill. In their talk, the old saint said she was blessed and comforted to think that she would live to see the Lord return in another year (this was in 1999). My bro told her that the soon return of our Savior was ever the hope of the Church, and that he hoped he'd live to see it as well. She said well of course you'll see it, He'll be here in a few months! Tom told her that of course He could return at any moment. Short form was she told him that the Lord would return in June of 2000, and if Tom didn't believe it them Tom didn't believe the Bible, was probably an infidel, and she'd never darken the door of his church again. And she didn't, even after 2000 came and went without our Lord's arrival. He hadn't returned when the old saint departed this life, either.

So what?
Do you think she'll be disappointed?

When the Lord comes in the end of the age most people will think it is too soon rather than too late.

We need every available moment to gain more and more of Christ in our souls.

 

[parousia70]

So what?
Do you think she'll be disappointed?

Well, sounds like she died in disappointment anyway, just like the untold numbers of Christians before her who were just as sure. Hopefully she retained her faith in the wake of that disappointment, but that is nowhere near a certainty.

One only needs to study "The Great Disappointment of 1844" to discover the real world, faith destroying consiquences of being duped by false end time prophets and their failed end time prophesies.

One thing we do know: Every person since the 1st century who has predicted the end would come in their day has racked up a 100% failure rate.

Every one. 100% Failure.

Why anyone would continue to attach their wagon to that broken, beat up horse in the wake of it's repeated, constant, total and complete failure, remains a mystery to me.

 

[keras]

No, to everybody, since "God's Time" means "some unknown period of time". "

There are many specifically stated time periods in the Bible. The thousand years of Revelation 20 is one of them. A literal thousand times that the earth will orbit the sun. Which - to God in heaven will be as just one day, the final day of His 7 'Days' for mankind on earth.

One thing we do know: Every person since the 1st century who has predicted the end would come in their day has racked up a 100% failure rate.
Every one. 100% Failure.

This comment displays your extreme foolishness.
To say predictions of a date beyond where we are now, have failed; is arrogant and arrant nonsense.

Why anybody believes the obvious, glaring errors of AMillennium and preterism, is a mystery to me.

 

[parousia70]

This comment displays your extreme foolishness.

Name one person who's end time prediction has come to pass.
One will do.

To say predictions of a date beyond where we are now, have failed; is arrogant and arrant nonsense.

Straw Man.
Please quote where I said anything of the sort.

All the end time date predictions that have come and gone prior to today have FAILED. 100% Failure rate.

This is plain, irrefutable FACT.

What is arrogant, foolish, arrant nonsense is believing and professing "yeah well my prediction is different from 100% of the predictions that came before me...they were ALL wrong but I'm the one human being in all of history who is for sure right, this time it's for sure gonna happen really soon..."

Hogswallop

 

[keras]

All the end time date predictions that have come and gone prior to today have FAILED. 100% Failure rate.

This does NOT mean that there will never come a Day when all the plainly stated Prophesies of the end times, WILL come to pass.
Warning people about it, is not wrong. We have had the Sign which Jesus prophesied; Matthew 24:32-33. I was alive when the Jews established their State and I expect to see all of the end times happen.

 

[timothyu]

Surprisingly little about gentiles in there but I guess that is no surprise considering the author and that the OT and the basis of the NT revolved around the Hebrew people from start to finish.

 

[Jipsah]

So what?
Do you think she'll be disappointed?

You think she wasn't,when the time that she believed that the Bible taught came and went uneventfully?

When the Lord comes in the end of the age most people will think it is too soon rather than too late.
We need every available moment to gain more and more of Christ in our souls.

Good job none of us is going to die, else we'd none of us have enough time.

 

[Jipsah]

Surprisingly little about gentiles in there but I guess that is no surprise considering the author and that the OT and the basis of the NT revolved around the Hebrew people from start to finish.

I still maintain that the Bible is about Christ. Weird, huh?

 

[timothyu]

I still maintain that the Bible is about Christ. Weird, huh?

Yes and apparently of the Hebrew nation of which He was an integral part. But that should be obvious as it is their story from start to finish.

 

[parousia70]

This does NOT mean that there will never come a Day when all the plainly stated Prophesies of the end times, WILL come to pass.

Irrelevant to my point.
Neither you, or I have any scriptural authority to claim any greater knowledge of the actual nearness of those events than the apostles had.

It is the height of arrogance to claim otherwise.

Warning people about it, is not wrong. We have had the Sign which Jesus prophesied; Matthew 24:32-33. I was alive when the Jews established their State and I expect to see all of the end times happen.

Good for you. I wouldn’t hold your breath.

BTW, The jews who established their state in your lifetime have no more relation to the pre-desolation Hebrews than you or I.