Trump spouts the birther conspiracy again - first Obama, then Cruz, then Harris, now Haley

WolfGate

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Trump promotes 'totally baseless' birther conspiracy theory against Nikki Haley​



It will be interesting to see if his fans pick this up and run with it, or slowly shake their heads, gaslight themselves and pretend he didn't really do it
 

GreatLakes4Ever

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Trump promotes 'totally baseless' birther conspiracy theory against Nikki Haley​



It will be interesting to see if his fans pick this up and run with it, or slowly shake their heads, gaslight themselves and pretend he didn't really do it

They’ll shrug it off. Trump said the same and worse about Ted Cruz and that guy still supports Trump.
 
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JSRG

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IT'S TOTALLY NOT RACIST GUYS!!!!

At least it's not only directed at Democrats now.
Actually, John McCain got hit by these sorts of "not a natural born citizen" claims as well during his presidential run. Even if you're referring specifically to the specific claims made by Donald Trump (I don't know if he ever asserted this against McCain), Trump also made these accusations of Ted Cruz during the 2016 primary.
 
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They’ll shrug it off. Trump said the same and worse about Ted Cruz and that guy still supports Trump.
Yeah, this one's always the wackiest part of it to me.

Trump will say horrid things about Republicans, and they'll all still line up to support him, even after he called their wives ugly and such.

There's brownnosing, and then there's whatever Republican politicians are doing to show their loyalty to Trump.
 
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A2SG

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Yeah, this one's always the wackiest part of it to me.

Trump will say horrid things about Republicans, and they'll all still line up to support him, even after he called their wives ugly and such.

There's brownnosing, and then there's whatever Republican politicians are doing to show their loyalty to Trump.
The MAGA base is so unhinged, this is what has to happen, I guess.

-- A2SG, all hail Fearless Leader....
 
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JSRG

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So I wanted to see what the actual argument against Nikki Haley being eligible was. Unfortunately, the article doesn't do anything other than link to Trump's Truth Social post rather than the thing Trump was citing. Now, Trump's actual Truth Social post is just a picture of a post by The Gateway Pundit (conservative site) that claims the constitutional interpretation of someone named Paul Ingrassia asserted that she didn't qualify. Rather annoyingly, neither Trump nor the picture he shows offers any link to the article in question. For reference, it is here.

This one, however, is largely just discussing the article of someone else on another conservative site called American Greatness.

Before the article, let's discuss the author, which The Gateway Pundit claims is a "legal scholar". In the article, the about the author says "Paul Ingrassia is a Law Clerk, a two-time Claremont Fellow, and served on President Trump’s National Economic Council." It's not exactly clear what it means by law clerk--a law clerk is someone (often but not always a lawyer) who aids a lawyer or judge in researching things or helping write or draft legal opinions. But it doesn't say he is a lawyer or anything, just a law clerk, and it doesn't say who he's clerking for; if they were a lawyer I'd think they'd specify that rather than just using "law clerk". But even accepting the generous interpretation that he is a lawyer and is clerking for a notable judge, it seems a stretch to turn that into "legal scholar" as The Gateway Pundit claims him to be.

But let's set aside the author and look at the actual argument. The argument, essentially, is that even if Nikki Haley was a citizen at birth, her parents weren't, and therefore she isn't a natural born citizen. That is, she might have birthright citizenship due to being born in the US, but it asserts that's a separate thing from being a natural born citizen, which is required for the presidency.

While the author writes a bunch on the topic, rather surprisingly their actual argument for the term natural born citizen excluding Haley is quite short, consisting of only one paragraph--heck, it really only consists of part of that paragraph. The rest is either concerning irrelevant issues (e.g. it mentions Jon Eastman's argument that Kamala Harris was ineligible, but Eastman's arguments against Harris--which I find very weak--do not apply to Nikki Haley) or is just them assuming the claim is already proven. One would think that one confidently declaring "The Constitution Absolutely Prohibits Nikki Haley From Being President Or Vice President" as its title (note the usage of "absolutely") would do more. Still, here's its argument:

A central concern for the architects of the nascent American republic was that only the most qualified statesmen be eligible for the country’s highest office. In his Commentaries, Joseph Story elaborated that “t is indispensable… that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States… [T]he general propriety of the exclusion of foreigners, in common cases, will scarcely be doubted by any sound statesman.” Joseph Story, who enjoyed over a thirty-year reign as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, famously elaborated the principles of the republicanism of Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall well into the mid-nineteenth century. His Commentaries specifically distinguished between natural born and naturalized citizens, the latter of whom were ineligible to run for president, despite qualifying for the privileges of citizenship. This view is supported by the best legal commentary of the day, Emmerich de Vattel’s Law of Nature and of Nations, a contemporaneous authority for the Founding Fathers on questions of citizenship. de Vattel’s work states that “[t]he natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” The question of natural born citizenship is ergo fundamentally distinct from the ongoing issue of birthright citizenship, raised in the Fourteenth Amendment, which confers citizenship to “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States.” The key word here is citizenship, not eligibility for the presidential office, which, as noted earlier, demands a much higher threshold for qualification.

The first half or so is irrelevant for our purposes; yes, John Marshall distinguishes between natural born and naturalized citizens, but a naturalized citizen is someone who gains it later in life. So ultimately the only argument it offers is the quote from Emmerich de Vattel's Law of Nations. I should note that the article is inaccurate with the title; the name isn't "Law of Nature and of Nations", but rather "The Law of Nations: Or, Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns". For brevity, it is usually just called "The Law of Nations." Neither the short nor the long version fits the supposed title of "Law of Nature and of Nations". Also, the article doesn't bother to tell you where in the work this quote is found; it's Book 1, Chapter 19, § 212.

The sloppiness of the article aside in regards to its citation, I've seen this quote before. Indeed, this quote is practically the go-to source to quote from for the argument that being born in the country, even with birthright citizenship, doesn't qualify you to be a natural born citizen; you need to also have a citizen as a parent. But this quote is actually quite weak support in the end.

See, Vattel's work was originally in French, not English (the original French title is Le Droit des gens : Principes de la loi naturelle, appliqués à la conduite et aux affaires des Nations et des Souverains). And the sentence in French reads, as seen on page 333 of the 1758 printing (back then the s's looked like f's!):

"Les Naturels ou Indigenes sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens."

So the French term that got rendered into "Natural Born Citizens" is "Naturels", a word that (according to dictionaries) simply means "natural" in French [EDIT: The translation actually rendered "naturels" into natives, and "natural born citizens" was the translation of "indigenes", which means indigenous person or native. I don't think this has any impact on my point, but I wanted to correct it]. It takes some stretching to turn that into "natural born citizens". But wait, you might say. Regardless of whether it's an accurate translation, the people in the US could've read it in English, where the phrase "Natural born citizen" was used, and gone with that interpretation of the term. But that's where the problem occurs: That doesn't work unless they had access to time travel, because the translation that rendered it as "natural born citizens" wasn't published until 1797 (depending on how one counts it, the US Constitution was either ratified in 1788 or 1790). The English translation that was available at the time the Constitution was being put together (see this 1787 printing) didn't use "natural born citizen" at all, but instead rendered the sentence as "The natives, or indigenes, are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Thus this quote, which is really the only real argument the article offers, is virtually useless unless one is going to argue time travel was involved. I guess it does show that some British translator understood the term to be natural born citizen, but since we don't know who they were, that doesn't offer much. An anonymous British translator does not strike me as a good source for American constitutional interpretation. And yet that is ultimately the only argument offered. Note further the article doesn't mention any of the above; it gives the reader the impression that Vallet actually used the term "natural born citizen" when, as noted, he definitely did not.

Incidentally, it claims Vallet's work was "the best legal commentary of the day." I suppose such things are debatable, but it's questionable to me that Americans would be relying more on a French legal commentary than Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, which were already in English and would have been more familiar to them. And what does this legal commentary say on the subject? It tells us (spelling corrected by me, the link's text is from a scanned source so it messes up some letters): "The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. In which the conftitution of France differs from curs; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien". While it uses "subject" instead of "citizen", it seems to me that if the Constitution's framers were relying on legal commentaries for terms, Blackstone's Commentary would make a lot more sense than Vattel's.

I don't know whether Trump actually looked at the article arguing it or if he just saw the headline and shared it based on that without any idea about what the rationale was, but it seems a very weak argument to me.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Wait, the whole argument hinges on French law? Seriously?

His lawyers must have heard about the Oui Oui Tape and gotten confused.
 
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Hans Blaster

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So I wanted to see what the actual argument against Nikki Haley being eligible was. Unfortunately, the article doesn't do anything other than link to Trump's Truth Social post rather than the thing Trump was citing. Now, Trump's actual Truth Social post is just a picture of a post by The Gateway Pundit (conservative site) that claims the constitutional interpretation of someone named Paul Ingrassia asserted that she didn't qualify. Rather annoyingly, neither Trump nor the picture he shows offers any link to the article in question. For reference, it is here.

This one, however, is largely just discussing the article of someone else on another conservative site called American Greatness.

Before the article, let's discuss the author, which The Gateway Pundit claims is a "legal scholar". In the article, the about the author says "Paul Ingrassia is a Law Clerk, a two-time Claremont Fellow, and served on President Trump’s National Economic Council." It's not exactly clear what it means by law clerk--a law clerk is someone (often but not always a lawyer) who aids a lawyer or judge in researching things or helping write or draft legal opinions. But it doesn't say he is a lawyer or anything, just a law clerk, and it doesn't say who he's clerking for; if they were a lawyer I'd think they'd specify that rather than just using "law clerk". But even accepting the generous interpretation that he is a lawyer and is clerking for a notable judge, it seems a stretch to turn that into "legal scholar" as The Gateway Pundit claims him to be.

But let's set aside the author and look at the actual argument. The argument, essentially, is that even if Nikki Haley was a citizen at birth, her parents weren't, and therefore she isn't a natural born citizen. That is, she might have birthright citizenship due to being born in the US, but it asserts that's a separate thing from being a natural born citizen, which is required for the presidency.

While the author writes a bunch on the topic, rather surprisingly their actual argument for the term natural born citizen excluding Haley is quite short, consisting of only one paragraph--heck, it really only consists of part of that paragraph. The rest is either concerning irrelevant issues (e.g. it mentions Jon Eastman's argument that Kamala Harris was ineligible, but Eastman's arguments against Harris--which I find very weak--do not apply to Nikki Haley) or is just them assuming the claim is already proven. One would think that one confidently declaring "The Constitution Absolutely Prohibits Nikki Haley From Being President Or Vice President" as its title (note the usage of "absolutely") would do more. Still, here's its argument:

A central concern for the architects of the nascent American republic was that only the most qualified statesmen be eligible for the country’s highest office. In his Commentaries, Joseph Story elaborated that “t is indispensable… that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States… [T]he general propriety of the exclusion of foreigners, in common cases, will scarcely be doubted by any sound statesman.” Joseph Story, who enjoyed over a thirty-year reign as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, famously elaborated the principles of the republicanism of Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall well into the mid-nineteenth century. His Commentaries specifically distinguished between natural born and naturalized citizens, the latter of whom were ineligible to run for president, despite qualifying for the privileges of citizenship. This view is supported by the best legal commentary of the day, Emmerich de Vattel’s Law of Nature and of Nations, a contemporaneous authority for the Founding Fathers on questions of citizenship. de Vattel’s work states that “[t]he natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” The question of natural born citizenship is ergo fundamentally distinct from the ongoing issue of birthright citizenship, raised in the Fourteenth Amendment, which confers citizenship to “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States.” The key word here is citizenship, not eligibility for the presidential office, which, as noted earlier, demands a much higher threshold for qualification.

The first half or so is irrelevant for our purposes; yes, John Marshall distinguishes between natural born and naturalized citizens, but a naturalized citizen is someone who gains it later in life. So ultimately the only argument it offers is the quote from Emmerich de Vattel's Law of Nations. I should note that the article is inaccurate with the title; the name isn't "Law of Nature and of Nations", but rather "The Law of Nations: Or, Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns". For brevity, it is usually just called "The Law of Nations." Neither the short nor the long version fits the supposed title of "Law of Nature and of Nations". Also, the article doesn't bother to tell you where in the work this quote is found; it's Book 1, Chapter 19, § 212.

The sloppiness of the article aside in regards to its citation, I've seen this quote before. Indeed, this quote is practically the go-to source to quote from for the argument that being born in the country, even with birthright citizenship, doesn't qualify you to be a natural born citizen; you need to also have a citizen as a parent. But this quote is actually quite weak support in the end.

See, Vattel's work was originally in French, not English (the original French title is Le Droit des gens : Principes de la loi naturelle, appliqués à la conduite et aux affaires des Nations et des Souverains). And the sentence in French reads, as seen on page 333 of the 1758 printing (back then the s's looked like f's!):

"Les Naturels ou Indigenes sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens."

So the French term that got rendered into "Natural Born Citizens" is "Naturels", a word that (according to dictionaries) simply means "natural" in French. It takes some stretching to turn that into "natural born citizens". But wait, you might say. Regardless of whether it's an accurate translation, the people in the US could've read it in English, where the phrase "Natural born citizen" was used, and gone with that interpretation of the term. But that's where the problem occurs: That doesn't work unless they had access to time travel, because the translation that rendered it as "natural born citizens" wasn't published until 1797 (depending on how one counts it, the US Constitution was either ratified in 1788 or 1790). The English translation that was available at the time the Constitution was being put together (see this 1787 printing) didn't use "natural born citizen" at all, but instead rendered the sentence as "The natives, or indigenes, are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Thus this quote, which is really the only real argument the article offers, is virtually useless unless one is going to argue time travel was involved. I guess it does show that some British translator understood the term to be natural born citizen, but since we don't know who they were, that doesn't offer much. An anonymous British translator does not strike me as a good source for American constituitonal interpretation. And yet that is ultimately the only argument offered. Note further the article doesn't mention any of the above; it gives the reader the impression that Vallet actually used the term "natural born citizen" when, as noted, he definitely did not.

Incidentally, it claims Vallet's work was "the best legal commentary of the day." I suppose such things are debatable, but it's questionable to me that Americans would be relying more on a French legal commentary than Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, which were already in English and would have been more familiar to them. And what does this legal commentary say on the subject? It tells us (spelling corrected by me, the link's text is from a scanned source so it messes up some letters): "The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. In which the conftitution of France differs from curs; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien". While it uses "subject" instead of "citizen", it seems to me that if the Constitution's framers were relying on legal commentaries for terms, Blackstone's Commentary would make a lot more sense than Vattel's.

I don't know whether Trump actually looked at the article arguing it or if he just saw the headline and shared it based on that without any idea about what the rationale was, but it seems a very weak argument to me.

A anti-birthright citizenship screed from Clairemont? Shocking! (Well shocking that it isn't from insurectionist law professor John Eastman.)
 
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SimplyMe

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So I wanted to see what the actual argument against Nikki Haley being eligible was. Unfortunately, the article doesn't do anything other than link to Trump's Truth Social post rather than the thing Trump was citing. Now, Trump's actual Truth Social post is just a picture of a post by The Gateway Pundit (conservative site) that claims the constitutional interpretation of someone named Paul Ingrassia asserted that she didn't qualify. Rather annoyingly, neither Trump nor the picture he shows offers any link to the article in question. For reference, it is here.

This one, however, is largely just discussing the article of someone else on another conservative site called American Greatness.

Before the article, let's discuss the author, which The Gateway Pundit claims is a "legal scholar". In the article, the about the author says "Paul Ingrassia is a Law Clerk, a two-time Claremont Fellow, and served on President Trump’s National Economic Council." It's not exactly clear what it means by law clerk--a law clerk is someone (often but not always a lawyer) who aids a lawyer or judge in researching things or helping write or draft legal opinions. But it doesn't say he is a lawyer or anything, just a law clerk, and it doesn't say who he's clerking for; if they were a lawyer I'd think they'd specify that rather than just using "law clerk". But even accepting the generous interpretation that he is a lawyer and is clerking for a notable judge, it seems a stretch to turn that into "legal scholar" as The Gateway Pundit claims him to be.

But let's set aside the author and look at the actual argument. The argument, essentially, is that even if Nikki Haley was a citizen at birth, her parents weren't, and therefore she isn't a natural born citizen. That is, she might have birthright citizenship due to being born in the US, but it asserts that's a separate thing from being a natural born citizen, which is required for the presidency.

While the author writes a bunch on the topic, rather surprisingly their actual argument for the term natural born citizen excluding Haley is quite short, consisting of only one paragraph--heck, it really only consists of part of that paragraph. The rest is either concerning irrelevant issues (e.g. it mentions Jon Eastman's argument that Kamala Harris was ineligible, but Eastman's arguments against Harris--which I find very weak--do not apply to Nikki Haley) or is just them assuming the claim is already proven. One would think that one confidently declaring "The Constitution Absolutely Prohibits Nikki Haley From Being President Or Vice President" as its title (note the usage of "absolutely") would do more. Still, here's its argument:

A central concern for the architects of the nascent American republic was that only the most qualified statesmen be eligible for the country’s highest office. In his Commentaries, Joseph Story elaborated that “t is indispensable… that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States… [T]he general propriety of the exclusion of foreigners, in common cases, will scarcely be doubted by any sound statesman.” Joseph Story, who enjoyed over a thirty-year reign as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, famously elaborated the principles of the republicanism of Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall well into the mid-nineteenth century. His Commentaries specifically distinguished between natural born and naturalized citizens, the latter of whom were ineligible to run for president, despite qualifying for the privileges of citizenship. This view is supported by the best legal commentary of the day, Emmerich de Vattel’s Law of Nature and of Nations, a contemporaneous authority for the Founding Fathers on questions of citizenship. de Vattel’s work states that “[t]he natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” The question of natural born citizenship is ergo fundamentally distinct from the ongoing issue of birthright citizenship, raised in the Fourteenth Amendment, which confers citizenship to “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States.” The key word here is citizenship, not eligibility for the presidential office, which, as noted earlier, demands a much higher threshold for qualification.

The first half or so is irrelevant for our purposes; yes, John Marshall distinguishes between natural born and naturalized citizens, but a naturalized citizen is someone who gains it later in life. So ultimately the only argument it offers is the quote from Emmerich de Vattel's Law of Nations. I should note that the article is inaccurate with the title; the name isn't "Law of Nature and of Nations", but rather "The Law of Nations: Or, Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns". For brevity, it is usually just called "The Law of Nations." Neither the short nor the long version fits the supposed title of "Law of Nature and of Nations". Also, the article doesn't bother to tell you where in the work this quote is found; it's Book 1, Chapter 19, § 212.

The sloppiness of the article aside in regards to its citation, I've seen this quote before. Indeed, this quote is practically the go-to source to quote from for the argument that being born in the country, even with birthright citizenship, doesn't qualify you to be a natural born citizen; you need to also have a citizen as a parent. But this quote is actually quite weak support in the end.

See, Vattel's work was originally in French, not English (the original French title is Le Droit des gens : Principes de la loi naturelle, appliqués à la conduite et aux affaires des Nations et des Souverains). And the sentence in French reads, as seen on page 333 of the 1758 printing (back then the s's looked like f's!):

"Les Naturels ou Indigenes sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens."

So the French term that got rendered into "Natural Born Citizens" is "Naturels", a word that (according to dictionaries) simply means "natural" in French. It takes some stretching to turn that into "natural born citizens". But wait, you might say. Regardless of whether it's an accurate translation, the people in the US could've read it in English, where the phrase "Natural born citizen" was used, and gone with that interpretation of the term. But that's where the problem occurs: That doesn't work unless they had access to time travel, because the translation that rendered it as "natural born citizens" wasn't published until 1797 (depending on how one counts it, the US Constitution was either ratified in 1788 or 1790). The English translation that was available at the time the Constitution was being put together (see this 1787 printing) didn't use "natural born citizen" at all, but instead rendered the sentence as "The natives, or indigenes, are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Thus this quote, which is really the only real argument the article offers, is virtually useless unless one is going to argue time travel was involved. I guess it does show that some British translator understood the term to be natural born citizen, but since we don't know who they were, that doesn't offer much. An anonymous British translator does not strike me as a good source for American constituitonal interpretation. And yet that is ultimately the only argument offered. Note further the article doesn't mention any of the above; it gives the reader the impression that Vallet actually used the term "natural born citizen" when, as noted, he definitely did not.

Incidentally, it claims Vallet's work was "the best legal commentary of the day." I suppose such things are debatable, but it's questionable to me that Americans would be relying more on a French legal commentary than Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, which were already in English and would have been more familiar to them. And what does this legal commentary say on the subject? It tells us (spelling corrected by me, the link's text is from a scanned source so it messes up some letters): "The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. In which the conftitution of France differs from curs; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien". While it uses "subject" instead of "citizen", it seems to me that if the Constitution's framers were relying on legal commentaries for terms, Blackstone's Commentary would make a lot more sense than Vattel's.

I don't know whether Trump actually looked at the article arguing it or if he just saw the headline and shared it based on that without any idea about what the rationale was, but it seems a very weak argument to me.

I think, this being Trump and from what we have learned about his "research" habits, that he merely saw the headline and shared it because he liked what it said.
 
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JSRG

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In some fairness to Trump, the title of this topic isn't really accurate. Trump isn't promoting a "conspiracy" here. The argument doesn't concern any kind of cover-up or hidden facts (as was the case with Obama, where the claim was he was actually born outside the US and that was covered up), but is an issue of constitutional interpretation. The claim is that the term natural born citizen applies only to those born in the US to a citizen, and if that is the proper definition, then it is true that Nikki Haley is ineligible (Kamala Harris too).

For reasons I gave in my previous post in this topic (post 11), I think the argument for that claim, particularly as presented in the article Trump promoted, is extremely weak. But ultimately, it's not a conspiracy, but an argument based on the meaning of a phrase. If someone were to argue that the Constitution doesn't protect the right of people to publish material because supposedly "freedom of the press" actually means the government can't issue regulations on one's ability to bench press, that's a very silly argument, but it isn't a conspiracy. Similarly, this one is a silly argument, but it isn't a conspiracy.

Granted, I'm not sure how much Trump actually knows anything about the argument he endorsed (he might have just seen the title and liked it). But the argument is not a conspiracy.
 
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johansen

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whatever the case, its not totally baseless.

kenya lost all their birth records to fire, shortly after dreams of my real father came out.

as for obama, i don't care for his politics but the reality is we dont know where or who his father is, or where he was born for sure.
its one of those.. if you smell smoke.. there is a fire somewhere. multiple people say they never saw him at the college he supposedly went to.. its one data point of thousands.

i'm starting not to really care if the usa collapses to be honest. worse things have happened in history and will happen again.
 
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Hans Blaster

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whatever the case, its not totally baseless.
Yes it is.
kenya lost all their birth records to fire, shortly after dreams of my real father came out.
SO what?
as for obama, i don't care for his politics but the reality is we dont know where or who his father is, or where he was born for sure.
He was born in Hawaii. Not only does the state of Hawaii confirm that with his birth certificate, but there is one of those one-line birth announcements of his birth in the paper contemporaneously. Plus his mother was an American, so it doesn't matter where he was born.
its one of those.. if you smell smoke.. there is a fire somewhere. multiple people say they never saw him at the college he supposedly went to.. its one data point of thousands.
No, that's not how facts work. I'm sure lots of people who attended the same college as me never saw me either (tens of thousands probably). Not evidence.
i'm starting not to really care if the usa collapses to be honest. worse things have happened in history and will happen again.
Then please disconnect from public life and stay out of the operation of society.
 
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johansen

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He was born in Hawaii. Not only does the state of Hawaii confirm that with his birth certificate, but there is one of those one-line birth announcements of his birth in the paper contemporaneously. Plus his mother was an American, so it doesn't matter where he was born.
yes, the photo they released which was a 17 layer image. lol.
 
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