Three Questions about God's Law

[Gary K]

There’s no scriptural evidence, and you've provided none, that the Sabbath, or the law of Moses which includes the Sabbath, was commanded by God or by any of the apostles to the Gentiles. But there’s solid scriptural evidence in Acts 15, that the Holy Spirit (God) directed the church elders in Jerusalem to write up a decree that was sent out to all the Gentile churches in Asia informing them that being circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath, was not a requirement.

And Christians don't need the law of Moses to tell them to love their neighbor as themselves and to not take God's name in vain.

So do you eat kosher meat? Meat with no blood in it? I have yet to meet a Christian who does.

Acts 15: 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Canuckster]

So do you eat kosher meat? Meat with no blood in it? I have yet to meet a Christian who does.

Acts 15: 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Yes... Christians don't have to eat kosher, get circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

 

[Gary K]

Yes... Christians don't have to eat kosher, get circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

That's exactly the opposite of what Acts 15:29 says.

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Canuckster]

That's exactly the opposite of what Acts 15:29 says.

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

If you think that's a command to eat kosher, then eat kosher.

 

[Gary K]

If you think that's a command to eat kosher, then eat kosher.

I don't eat meat any more. I was raised a vegetarian.

What do you call the command to not eat blood or things strangled?

 

[Canuckster]

I don't eat meat any more. I was raised a vegetarian.

What do you call the command to not eat blood or things strangled?

I call it a command to the gentiles of the day to abstain from foods offered to idols, drinking/eating blood and eating things strangled.

 

[Gary K]

I call it a command to the gentiles of the day to abstain from foods offered to idols, drinking/eating blood and eating things strangled.

So it was only a command to the Gentiles of Paul's day? How do you figure that?

 

[Canuckster]

So it was only a command to the Gentiles of Paul's day? How do you figure that?

Maybe drinking/eating blood and eating foods strangled and offered to idols was a common practice with Gentiles almost 2,000 years ago in that part of the world. But the main point is, they certainly weren't required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

There’s no scriptural evidence, and you've provided none, that the Sabbath, or the law of Moses which includes the Sabbath, was commanded by God or by any of the apostles to the Gentiles

until you actually read my post -- where we read this --
=============================================

Gen 2:2-3 makes it a binding obligation for all mankind since at that time Adam and Eve are "all mankind"
Ex 20:8-11 points directly at Gen 2:2-3 as the sole reason for binding obligation.

This is irrefutable.

Is 56:6-9 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath observance

Is 66:23 points out that it is for "ALL MANKIND" to come before God from Sabbath to Sabbath for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

Mark 2:27 says Sabbath "was MADE for mankind" at the point the day is made a holy day in Gen 2:2-3. Even if you edit that scripture to point it to Ex 20:11 and ignore the Gen 2 text it says it is based on -- it still leaves you with its "making" being in context of "for MANKIND" according to Christ.

This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

there’s solid scriptural evidence in Acts 15, that the Holy Spirit (God) directed the church elders in Jerusalem to write up a decree that was sent out to all the Gentile churches in Asia

True. It did not tell the gentiles they are free to take God's name in vain (Ex 20:7) rather it said that it was addressing the issue of circumcision alone.

No command in the OT or NT stated that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved - yet some Christian Jews from Jerusalem/Judea had gone out among the gentiles teaching that very form of false doctrine as Acts 15:1-3 points out.

informing them that being circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath, was not a requirement.

The Law of Moses includes "do not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
And "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
And "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
And "Remember the Sabbath day" that Christ said was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27

Acts 15 does NOT say to go ahead an ignore that part of God's Word. Rather it says that the people making stuff up should be ignored.

24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from acts of sexual immorality;

abstain from idols - is right out of the TEN commandments - LAW of Moses
abstain blood and things strangles - is right out of Lev 17 - the LAW of Moses
abstain from adultery is right out of the TEN Commandments - the LAW of Moses.


IT says that part of the solution to the debate is the fact that Christians hear the OT scriptures "every Sabbath in the Synagogues" and so it is not wonder that Paul is in the synagogue "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 reaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews --

21 For from ancient generations Moses has those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

No wonder in Acts 13 -- the gentiles waif for the Jews to leave the Synagogue the day Paul had just finished preaching the Gospel to BOTH groups in the Synagogue - and the gentiles specifically ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be scheduled for them "the NEXT Sabbath" -- not "the NEXT WEEK DAY 1"

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

And Christians don't need the law of Moses

James 2 quotes from it.
Eph 6:2 specifically references it.

Romans 7 quotes from it.
Christ quotes it in Matt 19

1 John 5:3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" rather than "that we refrain from reading them"

 

[BobRyan]

And Christians don't need the law of Moses to tell them to love their neighbor as themselves and to not take God's name in vain.

Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18
Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5

Quoted by Christ in Matt 22 when the Jews challenged Him to see if He KNEW that these were the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses.

Rather than Christ saying "you don't even need these two commandments"

 

[Canuckster]

Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18
Love God with all your heart Deut 6:5

Quoted by Christ in Matt 22 when the Jews challenged Him to see if He KNEW that these were the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses.

Rather than Christ saying "you don't even need these two commandments"

Just like God the Father doesn't need stuff written down on stone tablets to be pleasing to His children, His Children don't need stuff written down on stone tablets to be pleasing to their Father. That's why Christians in Asia were told by the Holy Spirit through the church elders in Acts 15 that they didn't have to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses (which includes the Sabbath) to be saved (to be pleasing to God).

 

[Canuckster]

True. It did not tell the gentiles they are free to take God's name in vain (Ex 20:7) rather it said that it was addressing the issue of circumcision alone.

No command in the OT or NT stated that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved - yet some Christian Jews from Jerusalem/Judea had gone out among the gentiles teaching that very form of false doctrine as Acts 15:1-3 points out.



The Law of Moses includes "do not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
And "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
And "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
And "Remember the Sabbath day" that Christ said was "made for mankind" Mark 2:27

Acts 15 does NOT say to go ahead an ignore that part of God's Word. Rather it says that the people making stuff up should be ignored.

24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from acts of sexual immorality;

abstain from idols - is right out of the TEN commandments - LAW of Moses
abstain blood and things strangles - is right out of Lev 17 - the LAW of Moses
abstain from adultery is right out of the TEN Commandments - the LAW of Moses.


IT says that part of the solution to the debate is the fact that Christians hear the OT scriptures "every Sabbath in the Synagogues" and so it is not wonder that Paul is in the synagogue "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 reaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews --

21 For from ancient generations Moses has those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

No wonder in Acts 13 -- the gentiles waif for the Jews to leave the Synagogue the day Paul had just finished preaching the Gospel to BOTH groups in the Synagogue - and the gentiles specifically ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be scheduled for them "the NEXT Sabbath" -- not "the NEXT WEEK DAY 1"

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.


James 2 quotes from it.
Eph 6:2 specifically references it.

Romans 7 quotes from it.
Christ quotes it in Matt 19

1 John 5:3 "this IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" rather than "that we refrain from reading them"

Those who proclaimed to be the great followers of the tablets of stone were the biggest murderers, liars and money lovers. They murdered the prophets, murdered the Christ, murdered and persecuted His followers. They infiltrated the church at Jerusalem and with lots of money became very influential among the Jewish converts and the Church elders. They took it upon themselves to send out agents to spy on the churches in Asia without informing or getting approval from the Church elders. They encouraged the Jewish converts in Jerusalem to not even eat with Christians from Asia.

When Paul was arrested at the Temple after following the advice of James to get purified from his contact with the unclean Gentile Christians in Asia, (because of all the Jewish converts who were “zealous for the law”), getting his head shaved and paying for the shaving of 4 others, none of the stone tablet following converts, the church elders, including James who practically ordered Paul to get purified, came to his defense when he got arrested at the Temple, for they feared the stone tablet following Jews more than they feared Christ.

Eventually, when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, all the stone tablet following converts were scattered in every direction to the point where, like the Temple and the stone tablets they worshiped, they became non-existent as a church, only the “unclean” Gentile churches in Asia, who didn’t follow the stone tablets, remained and became known as the 7 Churches of Revelation.

Acts 15 is clear, Christians are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved, which includes the Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

Those who proclaimed to be the great followers of the tablets of stone were the biggest murderers, liars and money lovers. They murdered the prophets, murdered the Christ, murdered and persecuted His followers. They infiltrated the church at Jerusalem and with lots of money became very influential among the Jewish converts and the Church elders. They took it upon themselves to send out agents to spy on the churches in Asia without informing or getting approval from the Church elders. They encouraged the Jewish converts in Jerusalem to not even eat with Christians from Asia.

When Paul was arrested at the Temple after following the advice of James to get purified from his contact with the unclean Gentile Christians in Asia, (because of all the Jewish converts who were “zealous for the law”), getting his head shaved and paying for the shaving of 4 others, none of the stone tablet following converts, the church elders, including James who practically ordered Paul to get purified, came to his defense when he got arrested at the Temple, for they feared the stone tablet following Jews more than they feared Christ.

Eventually, when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, all the stone tablet following converts were scattered in every direction to the point where, like the Temple and the stone tablets they worshiped, they became non-existent as a church, only the “unclean” Gentile churches in Asia, who didn’t follow the stone tablets, remained and became known as the 7 Churches of Revelation.

Acts 15 is clear, Christians are not required to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved, which includes the Sabbath.

So because the Jews had walked away from God and were massive hypocrites God's law is at fault?

 

[Canuckster]

So because the Jews had walked away from God and were massive hypocrites God's law is at fault?

It wasn't the Jews who walked away from Christ, they murdered Him. It was the Jewish Christians who were "zealous for the law." They tried to mix the old with the new, ignoring what Christ taught about the wine skins, and the consequence was their extinction.

 

[Gary K]

It wasn't the Jews who walked away from Christ, they murdered Him. It was the Jewish Christians who were "zealous for the law." They tried to mix the old with the new, ignoring what Christ taught about the wine skins, and the consequence was their extinction.

So in your mind having a personal relationship with God isn't important? And the Jews didn't walk away from Jesus who is God?

Your idea still has the law of God as the problem in what I see you saying.

 

[Canuckster]

So in your mind having a personal relationship with God isn't important? And the Jews didn't walk away from Jesus who is God?

Your idea still has the law of God as the problem in what I see you saying.

The Jews never came near Jesus, who is God... that's why they didn't walk away from Him cause they never got close to Him to begin with.

Many Jewish Christians converts, some who walked and talked with Jesus and were baptized by the Holy Spirit, they walked away from Jesus (God) for the reasons already mentioned. It's not the law of Moses that's the problem, it's Christians attempting to observe it (mixing the new with the old) that's the problem. Act 15 is solid evidence that Christians don't need the law of Moses to please God (to be saved). Just like I don't need the 3,000 yr old laws of China, to be lawful in the new Canada.

 

[Gary K]

The Jews never came near Jesus, who is God... that's why they didn't walk away from Him cause they never got close to Him to begin with.

Many Jewish Christians converts, some who walked and talked with Jesus and were baptized by the Holy Spirit, they walked away from Jesus (God) for the reasons already mentioned. It's not the law of Moses that's the problem, it's Christians attempting to observe it (mixing the new with the old) that's the problem. Act 15 is solid evidence that Christians don't need the law of Moses to please God (to be saved). Just like I don't need the 3,000 yr old laws of China, to be lawful in the new Canada.

The nations of Judah and Israel never had any kings who led them out of apostasy? Say Joash, Hezekiah and Jehoshaphat?

Remember Paul was a Pharisee who were the persecutors and murderers of Jesus. Until he met Jesus he was just like them. He says he was exceedingly made against the followers of Jesus. There were priests who accepted Jesus after His resurrection and they were the ones who insisted that the Gentiles follow all the rules and regulations such as circumcision. Paul himself said there is no difference between Jew and Greek. He also said he is a Jew who has had his heart circumcised.

BTW, the law of Moses is not the law of God. Two different things completely. The law of God was written on tables of stone. The law of Moses was written on parchment or animal skins. The law of God was kept on the ark of the testament. There is no Biblical record as to where Moses kept the laws he transcribed for the children of Israel.

 

[Canuckster]

...it was addressing the issue of circumcision alone. 24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, [Missing important verse] 25 it seemed good to us, having

Untrue. The issue was not about circumcision alone and you know that by the very fact you first chose to use a translation in verse 24 that leaves out the most important part of the decree,

"....by their teaching, upsetting your souls saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law,”.

This was also confirmed in verse 5 by the Pharisee sect who were responsible for sending out the spies in the first place,

"Then some believers of the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the Law of Moses.”

yet some Christian Jews from Jerusalem/Judea had gone out among the gentiles teaching that very form of false doctrine as Acts 15:1-3 points out.

And then you intentionally isolated it to Acts 15:1 which only mentions circumcision. It would be ludicrous for spies sent out from a Pharisee sect to tell Gentiles they could keep the law of Moses without being circumcised. That's a modern SDA teaching not a teaching of the Jews and Pharisees during that time.

No command in the OT or NT stated that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved -

Yes... there's no command in the OT or NT stating that gentiles needed to be circumcised to be saved and there's also no command in the OT or NT stating that gentiles could keep the law of Moses without being circumcised... being circumcised was a prerequisite to keeping the law of Moses, no Jews or Pharisees taught Gentiles in the OT or NT that they could keep the law of Moses without being circumcised. That was unthinkable. That's a SDA's modern pollution of the law of Moses.

Joseph W. Tkach (March 16, 1927 – Sept 23, 1995) pastor general of the World Wide Church of God, (which had strict observations of the Saturday Sabbath, annual festivals and holy days, clean and unclean meats, the forbidding of medical interventions, and the required payment of three tithes), decided to follow the scriptural evidence and reversed what his predecessor, Herbert W. Armstrong, had built up for 62 years. The result was the WCG lost 3 quarters of its revenue, had to sell off its college properties, headquarters staff went from 1,000 to 50 and it lost over half its membership.

The SDA church is worth an estimated $15.6 billion. Their annual revenue for 2021 totaled $223 million. SDA leaders know by what happened to the WCG, that they got too much to lose by following scriptural evidence. It’s gonna take a SDA leader as bold as Joseph W. Tkach to follow scriptural evidence instead of church revenue.

Acts 15 is solid scriptural evidence, backed by the Holy Spirit, that Christians do not have to get circumcised, and keep the law of Moses.

 

[Canuckster]

BTW, the law of Moses is not the law of God. Two different things completely. The law of God was written on tables of stone. The law of Moses was written on parchment or animal skins.

That's nonsense. The SDA have this peculiarity, some may call a fetish, about God's finger. What comes from God's mouth written on parchment is just as important as what comes from God's finger written on stone. What was written on parchment and what was written on stone were both written during the time of Moses and make up the law of Moses (the old covenant) in its entirety. Again, this is a SDA teaching just like being able to keep the law of Moses without being circumcised. People would have been stoned for such teachings during the time of Christ.

Acts 15 is referring to the law of Moses. And the law of Moses, "the law" for short (Act 15:24), includes the Sabbath. Christians do not have to observe it.