The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[sculleywr]

It is still discussing theology. I'm just testing Sculley's thesis using dogs to see if he has a valid distinction re the image of God.

By your thesis, man can never learn new information that is complex. You compare finding new ways to get to a trash can with using known complex knowledge to solve unique problems. Jumping and knocking things over is not the same as linguistic and intuitive adaptability. But if you are really willing to sit down and read an entire book about human intellect, just for the sake of this thread, get down with your bad self.

 

[drstevej]

What about humans with very low IQ's are they not in the image of God?

 

[sculleywr]

What about humans with very low IQ's are they not in the image of God?

Even they have the capacity to learn and change much beyond that of a dog.

 

[drstevej]

Even they have the capacity to learn and change much beyond that of a dog.

How about a 2 day old child? Are they in the image of God?

 

[sculleywr]

How about a 2 day old child? Are they in the image of God?

Yes. They are learning and adapting. They are already learning and developing and adapting at that point. And yes, my source could be just about any human growth and development textbook. I can also lean on my own understanding as a member of the Florida SIDS Alliance.

 

[AndOne]

Yes. They are learning and adapting. They are already learning and developing and adapting at that point. And yes, my source could be just about any human growth and development textbook. I can also lean on my own understanding as a member of the Florida SIDS Alliance.

How about during gestation then?

 

[gracewriterrandy]

John Calvin wrote,

In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, a voluntary slave; his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence. How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse.
Calvin, Institutes, book II, Chapter 2 # 7

 

[sculleywr]

How about during gestation then?

Several studies have shown that by the time they are born, babies have already learned mom's voice. So they obviously have the ability to learn there. Besides that, this isn't an argument for abortion, so these are off topic.

 

[sculleywr]

John Calvin wrote,

In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, a voluntary slave; his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence. How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse.
Calvin, Institutes, book II, Chapter 2 # 7

A voluntary slave can escape from slavery. Besides, Christ broke the chains of all. Romans 5

 

[drstevej]

Several studies have shown that by the time they are born, babies have already learned mom's voice. So they obviously have the ability to learn there. Besides that, this isn't an argument for abortion, so these are off topic.

Yorkies learn too. My Yorkie can hear our car coming a block away and knows it is us.

 

[sculleywr]

Yorkies learn too. My Yorkie can hear our car coming a block away and knows it is us.

Yorkies do not have the ability to learn as humans do. And to insinuate that as you seem to be trying is laughable. Go out and try to teach your dog anything truly complex, such as even the most basic grasp of spoken linguistic structure. And no, sit and lie down do not count. Use of language and such is required.

 

[gracewriterrandy]

Good grief! What does this dog discussion have to do with anything?

 

[drstevej]

So anyone who can not speak a known language is not in the image of God. Including goo goo, gah gah.

 

[drstevej]

Good grief! What does this dog discussion have to do with anything?

Our friend claims free will is a defining aspect of being in the image of God. I was explaining that my Yorkies exhibit free will similar to the Arminian definition.

Then the issue was made intelligence as a defining mark of the image of God and I am saying Yorkies are smarter than toddlers.

Just debunking false notions by providing examples to the contrary.

Pop some popcorn and watch. Or join us. With this drifting toward being able to speak, Balaam's donkey might show up soon.

 

[sculleywr]

So anyone who can not speak a known language is not in the image of God. Including goo goo, gah gah.

Nope. The ability to LEARN. Children are always learning from day one. They learn languages too. In fact, from the moment they are able to grasp a finger, they can tell you if they went to the potty or if they want milk. But it is your denigrating and repulsive comparison of humans and animals that is used to support pro-abortion arguments.

Humans and animals are separated by the ability to recognize, learn, and eventually use higher communications, as well as higher emotions such as love and hate. Those are all part of the human intellect. They are always developing from the time of birth.

 

[sculleywr]

Our friend claims free will is a defining aspect of being in the image of God. I was explaining that my Yorkies exhibit free will similar to the Arminian definition.

Then the issue was made intelligence as a defining mark of the image of God and I am saying Yorkies are smarter than toddlers.

Just debunking false notions by providing examples to the contrary.

Pop some popcorn and watch. Or join us. With this drifting toward being able to speak, Balaam's donkey might show up soon.

Unfortunately, I'm not arminian.

 

[drstevej]

Unfortunately, I'm not arminian.

Did not say you were.

 

[drstevej]

But it is your denigrating and repulsive comparison of humans and animals that is used to support pro-abortion arguments.

I have been pro-life longer than you have been alive. There is nothing denigrating or repulsive said in my posts re either animals or humans.

I do not believe you have demonstrated the genuine essence of the image of God. The essence is dominion as Genesis makes plain.

Genesis 1:23 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

No issue of intelligence or free will mentioned. Dominion is.



BTW, I exercize dominion over Buzz and our other three dogs... and as such I display the image of God.

I have raised two children and released them to be adults. My oversight was only temporary and preparatory for them. I do not have dominion over them--they are also in the image of God.

So, please do not misrepresent my views and I do hope you will look at Genesis 1:23.

 

[sculleywr]

Did not say you were.

I teach the Orthodox concept of Free Will theology, which dates back to the first century as an interpretation of the writings of John by his godson, our father among the saints, Ignatius of Antioch. Reading his letters to the churches reveals quite a bit of what the Apostle John taught, and predestination was always referred to in the collective terminology and not in individual terms. It was applied to the Church at large, but that individuals choose of their own volition to follow the light. We are evangelizing to bring the light to those we can.

 

[sculleywr]

I have been pro-life longer than you have been alive. There is nothing denigrating or repulsive said in my posts re either animals or humans.

I do not believe you have demonstrated the genuine essence of the image of God. The essence is dominion as Genesis makes plain.

Genesis 1:23 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

No issue of intelligence or free will mentioned. Dominion is.



BTW, I exercize dominion over Buzz and our other three dogs... and as such I display the image of God.

I have raised two children and released them to be adults. My oversight was only temporary and preparatory for them. I do not have dominion over them--they are also in the image of God.

So, please do not misrepresent my views and I do hope you will look at Genesis 1:23.

The essence of God is not that simple to explain. Otherwise God is limited. It isn't just dominion. It is the capacity of love and choice. Animals exercise dominion over eachother all the time. Look at the food chain.