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The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Robert Pate, Dec 28, 2012.

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  1. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    <edit>
    The apostles did not teach predestination. There is not one scripture in the Bible that says God has pre-determined who is saved and who is lost. What it does say is... "Whosoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Romans 10:13.

    The apostle Paul spent over 15 years of his life and traveled over 10,000 miles on foot, by donkey, by boat, to take the Gospel to the heathen Gentiles that had never even heard about Jesus. You would have much trouble convincing Paul that all of his effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ was for nothing because God had already pre-determined who would be saved and who would be lost.

    The book of Acts and the epistles describe Paul's three missionary journeys around the north shore of the Mediterranean Sea. If God had not been with Paul and the other apostles they would have perished. Paul and the other apostles were beaten, stoned, threatened and at one time were left for dead.

    All of the apostles except for John died violent deaths for the sake of the Gospel. None of them believed that they had been predestinated to salvation. They believed like Paul that salvation was by grace through through faith to all who called upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

    If they believed that predestination was the way people were saved, why go out into the world and risk your neck for some heathen Gentile, after all God had already pre-determined who was going to be saved and who was going to be lost. "let's just stay here in Jerusalem where it is warm and comfy, God will saved them."
     
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  2. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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  3. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    LUKE: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
     
  4. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    <edit>
    George Whitefield, the most prominent evangelist of the First Great awakening was a Calvinist.

    Belief that predestination removes the need for evangelism is a lie of Satan, but it is not a lie that is taught or endorsed by Calvinists. It is a lie often attributed to Calvinists by non-Calvinists sadly.
     
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  5. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Evangelism is the tool, the means that God uses to visit His elect with the gospel and bring them to salvation. The elect aren't just saved willy nilly without the gospel message and without coming to faith and repentance.

    Paul said that endured all things so the elect could be saved

    2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    The Calvinist evangelist has every comfort that his efforts will not be in vain. God will, without fail, save 100% of every single person he intends to save through our evangelistic efforts.

    It is the synergist that has no assurance that his work is accomplishing anything. How you could sleep at night knowing that if you had only worded your gospel presentation slightly differently to make it more palatable to men, more sinners might have gotten saved, is beyond me.

    The Calvinist has no such fear. He plants the seed, and knows that God will give the increase.
     
  6. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    It most certainly does.

    Canons of Dort

    see FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 7.
     
  7. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    THIRD AND FOURTH HEAD: ARTICLE 11. But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only cause the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly under and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.
     
  8. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest



    Sure, why not illuminate them they are already saved? So they say.

    There is a problem with that though. They still do not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world. Not much illumination.
     
  9. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    He has chosen people to redeem. But he still has to redeem them.

    I'm sorry you are unable to do anything other than draw non sequitures. but I will pray for you.
     
  10. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    You should probably stop equating election with justification.

    The two are not synonymous.

    Election happened in eternity past. Justification happens in time when we believe in Christ. This is true of both Calvinism and non-Calvinism. It's almost like you keep forgetting that even synergists believe in election. Even synergists believe that God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.

    When you guys make silly arguments against Calvinism pertaining to election, you are equally arguing against your own position without realizing it. Personally, I get a chuckle out of this.
     
  11. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest


    Why would he need to redeem them if they have already been chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved?

    Why would Christ die for something that is already his? Redeem means to buy back something that was lost. THEY WERE NEVER LOST.
     
  12. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    There is nothing in the Bible that says God elected anyone in eternity past. Except for Jesus Christ.

    Justification is the act of God in Jesus Christ when he in our name and on our behalf fulfilled the law and atoned for our sins. We are justified by the work and person of Jesus Christ, Romans 3:26.

    Salvation occurs when a sinner embraces this act of God in Jesus Christ as his only means of salvation.
     
  13. Tzaousios

    Tzaousios Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός

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    Mr. Pate, where have you been all of this time?
     
  14. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest


    On other Christian Forums.
     
  15. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    He chose (elected...elect means to choose) us in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4

    Care to retract your statement?
    Nobody here disagrees with that.

    Amen! Technically, justification occurs then. But, still, amen!
     
  16. Arcoe

    Arcoe Do This And Live!

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    If, in evangelizing, you tell one who was not chosen by God, that he can call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, you are, effectively, a liar. No way around it. You have willingly lied.

    And I wonder how you can tell a person this, when in your heart, you are not sure if this is so or not. Evangelism becomes much like election - it is a stroke of luck. There is a 50/50 chance you were elected, just as there is a 50/50 chance of reaching one chosen by God to be saved.

    Those are you odds if you are a Calvinist - 50/50. You have to hope you were chosen for salvation. Since you had nothing to do with your salvation, you are the mercy of a Divine lottery pick. You can't even pray to be saved if you are not of the chosen group. And who knows if you are saved or not. Just putting yourself, of your own willingness, into this group, does not guarantee you salvation.

    On the other hand, as the synergist asserts, if one calls upon the Lord and keeps his commandments, he is 100% assured of his salvation. Now tell me which belief gives man the best option of salvation - 100% synergism or 50% monergism?
     
  17. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    The same is true in your system. In your system, there exists people who were not chosen by God, too.

    That being said, nobody is lying when you tell them that if they repent and turn to Christ, they will be saved. That's not a lie. You wish it was a lie, but it's not. Sorry to disappoint.

    The same is true of your system. It's almost like you think election is exclusive to Calvinism.

    You make charges of "luck" and "chance", but the truth is, it is your own system in which God gambles with mens' souls.

    In my system, God ensured the salvation of billions and billions of people.

    In your system, God ensured the salvation of not even a single person. Zero. Zip. Nada. He just left the fate of the human race and who would end up in heaven to luck and chance. Heck, the whole human race might have ended up in hell! Who knows!

    Yet you have the audacity to think so little of God when he enters the human situation and saves billions and billions of people who didn't deserve it? It makes me wonder if you really understand grace.

    The same is true in monergism. In monergism, if one calls upon the Lord, he will be saved.

    I also notice a hint of works-righteousness salvation in what you have said here. You might not want to parade such a thing around here.

    The best option that gives man salvation is when God, by mercy and grace saves Him. It's called being saved by a merciful God when you didn't deserve it.

    In my view, all men deserve hell but God decides to save billions of them.

    In your view, all men deserve hell but God doesn't do jack to make sure any of them are saved. He just sits back and hopes and waits, gambling with men's souls.
     
  18. drstevej

    drstevej CF Chaplain Staff Member Supporter Chaplain

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    I tell them, "If you call upon the name of the Lord you will be saved."

    No lie in that. Lose the strawman.

    Plus, I have no idea who is or is not elect.
     
  19. Robert Pate

    Robert Pate Guest

    Ephesians 1:4 means that God chose all of humanity in Jesus Christ. He has reconciled the whole world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

    Jesus is the new Adam and humanities new representative. The old Adam and the old humanity has been put to death in Christ, Romans 6:6. In the resurrection God brings forth a new humanity in Jesus Christ. "If any man be "In Christ" he is a new creation," 2 Corinthians 5:17. God sees all of humanity "In Christ." Of course we know that not all of humanity want to be "In Christ" these are the lost that will be revealed at his appearing.
     
  20. Arcoe

    Arcoe Do This And Live!

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    Deception is just as dangerous as lying. Telling one who God ordained to hell, if they repent and turn to Christ, they will be saved is very deceptive. No matter how many times they repent, they still end up in hell.

    Predestination, which includes your form of election, is pretty much exclusive to Calvinism.

    We aren't talking about God gambling, but men gambling that they chosen by God. Like I said, you have a 50/50 chance to be chosen by God.

    And He also insured the damnation of billions and billions.

    Then how do you explain Peter saying to make your calling and election sure? You do not understand any system but yours. To say ours is luck and chance is lost within your capacity to understand of what we believe. If you think we believe God has nothing to do with our salvation, then you are certainly not familiar with what we believe.

    Again, your ignorance of our beliefs is staggering.

    How is it that man must do something to be saved? This is totally opposed to your system.

    I am not ashamed of it, though you would like to shame me for it. Let me ask you the same question James asked -
    But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? (James 2:20)

    Do you recognize this? If all you have is faith without works, and you have confirmed this many times, James says it is not only useless, but also you are foolish.

    Of course you mean only some men. For others it is the most damning and ungodly thing to happen to them.

    The only problem with that is man must be one of the lucky ones to be chosen.

    Again, ignorance of our beliefs is not fitting for one to make false accusations.
     
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