The Sabbath: Why do Christians say Sunday?

[Stravinsk]

(snip) The Sabbath was the only commandment absent the New Testatment. (/snip)

Matt 24:20

" And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. "

Whether or not you believe this relates to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. or, the end of the world (which fits the broader chapter context) -

You can't escape that Jesus is telling His Followers to keep the Sabbath for (at least) 40 years after His Death and Resurrection. Else why pray about not having to flee on it? Christians often counter argue that that msg was just for the Jews - but using that argument is problematic - since all of Christ's teachings were directed towards the Jews.

Another passage often missed is this one:

Hebrews 4:9

"There remains therefore a rest for the people of God."

If it "remains" it was instituted before. It is clear that reading a few paragraphs before this - the writer of Hebrews is speaking of the 7th Day Sabbath. Also - the word translated "rest" here in our English bibles is "sabbatismos" - which means "Sabbath Keeping"

Judaizing, indeed.

 

[Rhamiel]

I always find it interesting how so many people have such an Anglo-centric world view. I know the English speaking world is awash in 10,000 sects, each getting further and further away from the so called "reformers." But the reality is most of the world's Christians are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, and there isn't any difference on these matters between the two. Nor is there any amongst the so called high protestants like Lutherans and Anglicans.

The rest of it just comes down to cafeteria Judaizing. Which always seems to have as it's focus dietary aspects of Mosaic law, while ignoring everything else. The Book of Acts contains a record of the early Church's position, don't eat meat that was sacrificed to idols, otherwise you're good to go. In the modern west that's pretty much a non-concern, it's not like your neighborhood Safeway's meat department is going to have special discounted sacrificed to idols meat for sale. People have been eating pork safely for thousands of years. Improperly handled beef is just as dangerous as improperly handled pork. For that matter improperly handle veggies have been responsible for more than a few food borne illness out breaks in the past few years. If anything pork is probably safer these days because of the tendency to over cook it.

yeah, between the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodist that is the VAST majority of global Christianity
South Korea is mostly Reformed, but I think all of them worship on Sunday
most Baptists worship on sunday too I guess, how big are they globaly?

 

[Miles]

I would gladly observe the Sabbath on Saturday. However, where I grew up, the blue laws are on Sunday. That's the day when most businesses are required by law to remain closed. Monday is effectively the first day for most people, and Sunday is the de facto day of rest. If we want the Sabbath to be reverted to Saturday, then we'll have to move the weekend, and change blue laws in certain locales. Frankly, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Stravinsk]

I always find it interesting how so many people have such an Anglo-centric world view. I know the English speaking world is awash in 10,000 sects, each getting further and further away from the so called "reformers." But the reality is most of the world's Christians are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, and there isn't any difference on these matters between the two. Nor is there any amongst the so called high protestants like Lutherans and Anglicans.

What's the argument that basically asserts that greater numbers of believers constitute truth? Whatever it is - you've just used it here.

The rest of it just comes down to cafeteria Judaizing. Which always seems to have as it's focus dietary aspects of Mosaic law, while ignoring everything else.

What, exactly, is being ignored? If you're preaching on murder or adultery to a Christian crowd - is this of much benefit since one is basically preaching to the choir?

However, most Christians do not keep Sabbath or dietary laws - that is one of the main reasons they are addressed. And the ignorance of dietary laws (or just ignoring them) in particular *hurts* people. (See below)

The Book of Acts contains a record of the early Church's position, don't eat meat that was sacrificed to idols, otherwise you're good to go. In the modern west that's pretty much a non-concern, it's not like your neighborhood Safeway's meat department is going to have special discounted sacrificed to idols meat for sale. People have been eating pork safely for thousands of years. Improperly handled beef is just as dangerous as improperly handled pork. For that matter improperly handle veggies have been responsible for more than a few food borne illness out breaks in the past few years. If anything pork is probably safer these days because of the tendency to over cook it.

Do you ever research your opinions or are they largely a result of your own bias?

Please show me how, aside from keeping nuts/legumes/seeds/wholegrains in damp conditions, or for too long - where they will either germinate or grow fungus/mold - how one can "improperly" handle a veggie.

On the contrary - lets have a look at MRSA. A particularly nasty flesh eating bacteria:

MRSA found in store-bought pork | KLEW CBS 3 - News, Weather and Sports - Lewiston, ID - Lewiston, Idaho | News

This bacteria is already responsible for more deaths a year than AIDS.

Yep, you can get it just from touching dead swine. But if you had any respect for God's law (Lev 11:7-9) - you would escape through knowledge - since even touching pork is forbidden.


But - let's say that you happened to find a strain of pork that wasn't infected with MRSA (you wouldn't know since the bacteria cannot be seen) - or you went to a restaurant where a hurried cook happens to not cook your pork properly. What can result? Some serious other nasties...

YouTube - Eating Pork Can Make Worms Enter Your Brain!


On the contrary...I don't need to cook most of my veggies or legumes/nuts/seeds to safely consume them. I need only make sure they are stored(seed like products) in a dry, clean place. 9 times out of 10 - I can see (or smell) when they have gone bad.

Now while it's true that you can get sick from undercooked beef, and especially chicken (again we are harkening to Torah - don't consume meat that still has blood in it!) - you're much less likely to get MRSA and brain worms.

But what a wonderful religious tradition you have though. Eat that Christmas ham, swallow that crackle, cook that pork sausage. Because that is all it is - a tradition that attempts to circumvent God's law - and people suffer for it. Doesn't it just make you want to shout for joy that by merely praying over a meal in Jesus's name - all becomes magically well?


Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

 

[Ronald]

[quote="Stravinsk, post: 57199010"]Matt 24:20

" And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. "
 
 
Hebrews 4:9

"There remains therefore a rest for the people of God."

The Matthew message is to Jews and the Hebrews message supports the essence of what entering into My Rest means, IN CHRIST.
I didn't say that the Sabbath wasn't mentioned or observed, I said it wasn't stated as a command.
Christ's ministry occurred while He was under the Law, it was before Grace, before the New Covenant. He had to fulfill the Law perfectly and so you cannot use OT covenant Laws to argue this point either.

 

[Stravinsk]

[quote="Stravinsk, post: 57199010"]Matt 24:20
 
" And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. "
 
 
Hebrews 4:9
 
"There remains therefore a rest for the people of God."
[/quote]

The Matthew message is to Jews and the Hebrews message supports the essence of what entering into My Rest means, IN CHRIST.
I didn't say that the Sabbath wasn't mentioned or observed, I said it wasn't stated as a command.
Christ's ministry occurred while He was under the Law, it was before Grace, before the New Covenant. He had to fulfill the Law perfectly and so you cannot use OT covenant Laws to argue this point either.

Didn't I already forstall this argument in my post that you have only partially quoted? There is never one teaching that Jesus says "gentiles, close thy ears - this is for Jews only". All of Christ's teachings were directed to Jews. To single one out is done on a purely arbitrary basis by Christians.

Using your selection process - I could hand pick any of Christ's teachings as being "for Jews only".

As for the Hebrews reference - I doubt you've ever read the context or the Koine Greek that form the view I put forth.

Further, Jesus never mentions...oh say...inappropriate behavior with animals or witchcraft. Neither the Epistles. Stange that eh? I can apply the "new covenant/not under law/wasn't mentioned by Christ" argument to that too, using your reasoning. In other words - "they don't apply to us now because they are OT stuff. "

 

[Shadesofgray]

Another passage often missed is this one:

Hebrews 4:9

"There remains therefore a rest for the people of God."

If it "remains" it was instituted before. It is clear that reading a few paragraphs before this - the writer of Hebrews is speaking of the 7th Day Sabbath. Also - the word translated "rest" here in our English bibles is "sabbatismos" - which means "Sabbath Keeping"

Judaizing, indeed.

I was wondering if/when Hebrews 4 would make an appearance in this thread.

Once again going back to the original Hebrew, there is actually a few different meanings that the Jews had for the term God's rest. These were meanings that the Jews would have all been familiar with. The first meaning was the actual 7th day of creation, the second was the Sabbath, the third was the Promised Land (This meaning is even clear in the passage from Hebrews as it talks about Joshua giving the people God's rest) and the last was God's salvation.

What was being expressed to the Jews in Hebrews was that they were still entering, or recieving God's rest, the fullfillment of his promise to the Jews, by following Christ. However, the passage does also express the need to rest in God. It does not however demand that the day be on the traditional Sabbath. For Jewish Christians, keeping the day of rest as the Jewish Sabbath is a reasonable choice. That day of rest did not need to be applies to the same way to the Gentiles however.

The law of Moses was the Jews doing their part in the Covenant between the Jews and God. The Christians were under a new covenant that was created through Jesus. That is why Gentiles were not to be forced to subject to Jewish laws.

 

[SneakerPimp53]

What's the argument that basically asserts that greater numbers of believers constitute truth? Whatever it is - you've just used it here.

It's simply a fact that since the earliest days of the Church the Liturgy has been held on the Lord's day (Sunday) and sabbath keeping is a Jewish practice. The Book of Acts records the first council held by the Church, expressly for the purpose of dealing with Judiaizers.

1 Then some men came down from Judaea and taught the brothers, 'Unless you have yourselves circumcised in the tradition of Moses you cannot be saved.'
2 This led to disagreement, and after Paul and Barnabas had had a long argument with these men it was decided that Paul and Barnabas and others of the church should go up to Jerusalem and discuss the question with the apostles and elders.
3 The members of the church saw them off, and as they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria they told how the gentiles had been converted, and this news was received with the greatest satisfaction by all the brothers.
4 When they arrived in Jerusalem they were welcomed by the church and by the apostles and elders, and gave an account of all that God had done through them.
5 But certain members of the Pharisees' party who had become believers objected, insisting that gentiles should be circumcised and instructed to keep the Law of Moses.
6 The apostles and elders met to look into the matter,
7 and after a long discussion, Peter stood up and addressed them. 'My brothers,' he said, 'you know perfectly well that in the early days God made his choice among you: the gentiles were to learn the good news from me and so become believers.
8 And God, who can read everyone's heart, showed his approval of them by giving the Holy Spirit to them just as he had to us.
9 God made no distinction between them and us, since he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Why do you put God to the test now by imposing on the disciples the very burden that neither our ancestors nor we ourselves were strong enough to support?
11 But we believe that we are saved in the same way as they are: through the grace of the Lord Jesus.'
12 The entire assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the signs and wonders God had worked through them among the gentiles.
13 When they had finished it was James who spoke. 'My brothers,' he said, 'listen to me.
14 Simeon has described how God first arranged to enlist a people for his name out of the gentiles.
15 This is entirely in harmony with the words of the prophets, since the scriptures say:
16 After that I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; I shall make good the gaps in it and restore it.
17 Then the rest of humanity, and of all the nations once called mine, will look for the Lord, says the Lord who made this
18 known so long ago.
19 'My verdict is, then, that instead of making things more difficult for gentiles who turn to God,
20 we should send them a letter telling them merely to abstain from anything polluted by idols, from illicit marriages, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21 For Moses has always had his preachers in every town and is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath.'
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose delegates from among themselves to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas, known as Barsabbas, and Silas, both leading men in the brotherhood,
23 and gave them this letter to take with them: 'The apostles and elders, your brothers, send greetings to the brothers of gentile birth in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
24 We hear that some people coming from here, but acting without any authority from ourselves, have disturbed you with their demands and have unsettled your minds;
25 and so we have decided unanimously to elect delegates and to send them to you with our well-beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have committed their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 Accordingly we are sending you Judas and Silas, who will confirm by word of mouth what we have written.
28 It has been decided by the Holy Spirit and by ourselves not to impose on you any burden beyond these essentials:
29 you are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from illicit marriages. Avoid these, and you will do what is right. Farewell.'

What, exactly, is being ignored? If you're preaching on murder or adultery to a Christian crowd - is this of much benefit since one is basically preaching to the choir?

For some reason I tend to doubt modern Judiaizers make their wives go sleep in a tent on the lawn, or somewhere else, outside the house when they're having their periods. Nor any other of the thousand such rules and social regulations Mosaic law would impose.

However, most Christians do not keep Sabbath or dietary laws - that is one of the main reasons they are addressed. And the ignorance of dietary laws (or just ignoring them) in particular *hurts* people. (See below)

Do you ever research your opinions or are they largely a result of your own bias?

Please show me how, aside from keeping nuts/legumes/seeds/wholegrains in damp conditions, or for too long - where they will either germinate or grow fungus/mold - how one can "improperly" handle a veggie.

64 sickened by Taco Bell E. coli; more onions test positive - CNN

This is but one instance where E Coli was spread via vegetables.

Salmonella Spread By Peanut Butter - CBS News

Salmonella is another food borne illness commonly spread through improperly handled nuts.

On the contrary...I don't need to cook most of my veggies or legumes/nuts/seeds to safely consume them. I need only make sure they are stored(seed like products) in a dry, clean place. 9 times out of 10 - I can see (or smell) when they have gone bad.

You can see and smell when meat has gone bad. The reality is you cannot detect the E. Coli or Salmonella that you could contract from eating uncooked veggies or nuts any more than you could detect bacteria on meat.

Now while it's true that you can get sick from undercooked beef, and especially chicken (again we are harkening to Torah - don't consume meat that still has blood in it!) - you're much less likely to get MRSA and brain worms.

It's not exactly a big secret that cooking meat all the way through is the safest way to eat it. Of course, that is also true for veggies.

But what a wonderful religious tradition you have though. Eat that Christmas ham, swallow that crackle, cook that pork sausage. Because that is all it is - a tradition that attempts to circumvent God's law - and people suffer for it. Doesn't it just make you want to shout for joy that by merely praying over a meal in Jesus's name - all becomes magically well?

The Gospel of St. Mathew addresses this quite nicely:

9 Their reverence of me is worthless; the lessons they teach are nothing but human commandments.'
10 He called the people to him and said, 'Listen, and understand.
11 What goes into the mouth does not make anyone unclean; it is what comes out of the mouth that makes someone unclean.'
12 Then the disciples came to him and said, 'Do you know that the Pharisees were shocked when they heard what you said?'
13 He replied, 'Any plant my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14 Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind; and if one blind person leads another, both will fall into a pit.'
15 At this, Peter said to him, 'Explain the parable for us.'
16 Jesus replied, 'Even you -- don't you yet understand?
17 Can't you see that whatever goes into the mouth passes through the stomach and is discharged into the sewer?
18 But whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and it is this that makes someone unclean.
19 For from the heart come evil intentions: murder, adultery, fornication, theft, perjury, slander.
20 These are the things that make a person unclean. But eating with unwashed hands does not make anyone unclean.'

 

[Stravinsk]

Well, I'm off to work so don't have time to address stuff until later. However, SP - take care to read again the quoted passage from matthew.

Note:

These are the things that make a person unclean. But eating with unwashed hands does not make anyone unclean.'

Indeed sums it up nicely. Christ wasn't addressing the dietary laws - He was addressing a tradition of washing hands! No where is unclean things brought up in that passage - since every person listening to Christ was a Jew and it would have been simply a given that certain things were unclean.

On a side note - "Food" by our definition means "that which we eat". But it is not the Biblical definition. The bible never calls things like pork or shellfish - "food". Never once. They are designated "unclean" - that we cannot even touch the dead carcass.

The MRSA epidemic - the fact that you can get flesh eating MRSA simply by TOUCHING dead swine clearly vindicates passages like Lev 11:7-8.

 

[SneakerPimp53]

Well, I'm off to work so don't have time to address stuff until later. However, SP - take care to read again the quoted passage from matthew.

Note:

These are the things that make a person unclean. But eating with unwashed hands does not make anyone unclean.'

Indeed sums it up nicely. Christ wasn't addressing the dietary laws - He was addressing a tradition of washing hands! No where is unclean things brought up in that passage - since every person listening to Christ was a Jew and it would have been simply a given that certain things were unclean.

On a side note - "Food" by our definition means "that which we eat". But it is not the Biblical definition. The bible never calls things like pork or shellfish - "food". Never once. They are designated "unclean" - that we cannot even touch the dead carcass.

The MRSA epidemic - the fact that you can get flesh eating MRSA simply by TOUCHING dead swine clearly vindicates passages like Lev 11:7-8.

Even if you're going to try going about it this way, and it's basically literal more than picking through context, St. Paul and the Council of Jerusalem addressed the issue. Gentiles are not obligated to eat kosher diets.

 

[TanteBelle]

If you're going to preach that we have no need to be 'under the law' (a totally misunderstood term of Paul's), then you don't need the Shabbat. Why worry about Shabbat when you don't worry about anything else that's in torah?

And to correct someone on here, Genesis says, 'The evening and the morning were the first day'. A biblical day is counted the night before through to the night after. So yes, Shabbat is Friday night through to Saturday night. Where I live, we've just gotten the whole 'weekend workdays' too and Sunday is the biggest trading day, but I really don't care what the rest of the world is doing. 'We ought to obey God rather than men!' Yeshua went into the synagogue of Shabbat 'as was His custom'. Paul and the apostles met in the synagogues on the Shabbat 'as was their custom'. There are passages all through the NT that assert to the Shabbat and history to prove that too. I'd rather throw my lot in with the aposltes, OT folks, and Messiah Himself rather than some day made up by the Romans.

And Juadizers?????? Please! It's called scripture! I thought we were past the middle ages. :/

And whoever brought up that chapter in Acts in the previous page, note the term 'saved' (not salvation) and 'circumcision' (not Shabbat). Missed the entire point of that passage.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Behold my prophecies.

 

[Stravinsk]

I was wondering if/when Hebrews 4 would make an appearance in this thread.

Once again going back to the original Hebrew, there is actually a few different meanings that the Jews had for the term God's rest. These were meanings that the Jews would have all been familiar with. The first meaning was the actual 7th day of creation, the second was the Sabbath, the third was the Promised Land (This meaning is even clear in the passage from Hebrews as it talks about Joshua giving the people God's rest) and the last was God's salvation.

What was being expressed to the Jews in Hebrews was that they were still entering, or recieving God's rest, the fullfillment of his promise to the Jews, by following Christ. However, the passage does also express the need to rest in God. It does not however demand that the day be on the traditional Sabbath. For Jewish Christians, keeping the day of rest as the Jewish Sabbath is a reasonable choice. That day of rest did not need to be applies to the same way to the Gentiles however.

The law of Moses was the Jews doing their part in the Covenant between the Jews and God. The Christians were under a new covenant that was created through Jesus. That is why Gentiles were not to be forced to subject to Jewish laws.

Lets address Hebews 4.

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“ So I swore in My wrath,

‘ They shall not enter My rest,’”[b]

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;[c] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[d]
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:


“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”[e]

a few points here:

1) Who is being referenced in the above passage as an example NOT to follow?

2) What are their sins?

In order to answer these questions there are two passages that need reading. The first is what the writer of Hebrews borrows from in making the point:

Psalm 95: Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,[a]
As in the day of trial[b] in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

Answer 1) It is the Israelites in the wilderness that are being referenced as an example of what NOT to follow.

Why are they NOT an example?

Answer 2)
Ezekiel 20: 10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’[b] 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’;[c] and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them



It is only against this background can you understand Hebrews 4 - and what is being referred to as "God's Rest".

One would think it was clear enough from the very words in that passage. But alas, evidently not:

Hebrews 4: 9 There remains therefore a rest* for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

• It remains - therefore it is not new
• It is compared to God's rest in Creation, just as the Sabbath command does when it is given in Exodus
• It is listed as a principle sin of the Israelites in the wilderness - that of defiling God's Sabbath.

*Word translated "rest" is sabbatismos which literally means "Sabbath Keeping"

But let's go further:

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Who's disobediance? The Israelites in the wilderness disobedience as outlined above by the prophet Ezekiel.

We are to be dilegent to enter "that rest" (the one the Israelites disobeyed) - or what? "lest anyone fall according to the SAME EXAMPLE of disobedience".

 

[Shadesofgray]

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;[c] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[d]
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”[e]

Perhaps you didn't read my post carefully, perhaps you didn't understand what I meant when I said that the word Sabbath has several meanings to the Jews. In the first example, the reference is to the actual creation day. That is quite obvious in that passage. The second mention of Sabbath in this passage may be a little less clear but we can tell by the reference to "they in their disobedience did not enter it" refers to the promised land.
Now let's go on.

Psalm 95: Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,[a]
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

You are correct when you say that this is the Israelites that is being referred to, however you are taking Sabbath in the wrong tense once again. To prove my point let's combine this with your next piece of scripture.

Ezekiel 20: 10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’;[c] and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them

In this passage, the reference is to the Sabbath is indeed a reference to the sabbath as a day of rest. However the passages that you link here is missing some context. The first verses in Psalms and Hebrews are referring to God's Rest, or Sabbath as it is written in the original Hebrew as the promise land. Take a look back in numbers and see why God did not let them enter the promised land? The exact reason is clearly shown in Numbers 13-14 when the Israelites refuse to accept God's promise to deliver them the promised land. It is then that God sentenced them to wandering in the desert. There is no reference at all in Numbers when God gives them that punishment to the Sabbaths being defied.

The passage in Ezekiel is a direct reference to the old covenant that was established between the Jews and God. Paul in Hebrews was not warning the Jews to keep the old laws, but not to disobey God when he tells them to enter into his rest, the promised land. Remember in Numbers they rejected God's command to go in and take the land and said instead, let us choose a new leader and go back to Egypt. This is what Paul is warning the Hebrews against.

He is warning the Jews do not be like your ancestors and reject God's new promise of eternal life, salvation in through Christ, like your ancestors had done in the past.

The Passage in Ezekiel is talking about specifically the reasons why God had turned his back on Israel and why he would not speak to them when they came to Ezekiel seeking the word of the Lord (see Ezekiel 20:2-3). They had broken his covenant which was between him and the Jews, they broke his laws, they defiled his Sabbaths, and they worshiped idols. All things that were not related to why they were forced to wander in the wilderness. Moses had to intercede to stop God from destroying them several times in the wilderness for those things. But the specific time referenced in Hebrews was not one of those.

Hebrews 4: 9 There remains therefore a rest* for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

It remains - therefore it is not new
It is compared to God's rest in Creation, just as the Sabbath command does when it is given in Exodus
It is listed as a principle sin of the Israelites in the wilderness - that of defiling God's Sabbath.
*Word translated "rest" is sabbatismos which literally means "Sabbath Keeping"

Once again, a reference to God's eternal life and out salvation. This passages means that there is a place we will be given to rest like God rested after creation was completed.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Still a reference to Israel's original rejection of God giving them a promise land, and equal in meaning to rejecting God's gift of eternal life. It's still a reference to the passage in Numbers when the exact reason for God's sending them to wander in the desert was because they refused to enter God's rest.

Your drawing of the prophet Ezekiel's words is out of context here. Paul makes no reference to Ezekiel at all in this passage because the reference to Psalms was referring to the specific event of Numbers 13-14. If he was talking about the specific events of Ezekiel he could have refernced Ezekiel directly. This is something he did not do. All the Jews know why exactly they wandered the desert for 40 years, because they refused to enter God's Rest, the promise land.

The other times that God desired to destroy Israel are what Ezekiel is referring to. Ezekiel refers to a specific event about why God refused to talk to the Israelites. They broke a covenant that was between them and God. A covenant that was not between the Gentiles and God, and therefore had no bearing to this situation talked about in Hebrews. The Jewish Christians like the Gentiles were no longer under the old Covenant. They were now under the new covenant and the only thing that Paul wanted them to do was not reject God's new Promised Land, eternal life, like their ancestors rejected the old promised land.

As you yourself pointed out, the word sabbatismos equals God's rest which coincides with what I originally said when the same word was used to mean Sabbath the day, Sabbath the Seventh day of Creation, Sabbath, The Promised Land, and Sabbath, God's Salvation or eternal life. If anything your post helps prove my point when you look into the specific reason about why God forced the Isrealites to wander the desert as stated in Numbers 13-14. The same example of disobedience was not trusting God and not entering into his promised land, or in our case as Paul meant, not entering into God's Salvation, i.e. Eternal life.

 

[TanteBelle]

Sabbaths to those who keep torah mean more than just the seventh day Shabbat. Sabbaths include the weekly Shabbat and the festival Shabbats, or high Shabbats.

 

[Shadesofgray]

Sabbaths to those who keep torah mean more than just the seventh day Shabbat. Sabbaths include the weekly Shabbat and the festival Shabbats, or high Shabbats.

I will concede that my definition that I used for Sabbath when I said the 7th day of rest was a bit to narrow and that yes it does include all Festival Sabbaths and High Sabbaths as well. However that does not invalidate my point that Ezekiel was referring to why God turned his back on Israel, for all the things they did to break the convenant, while Paul was refering to one specific event which did not include all the things Ezekiel spoke of. Paul did not refer to them because the Christians were no longer under that covenant, but were under a new covenant and were only being warned not to reject it as the Israelites did in the past.

That being said, I know I probably will not be able to convince those that hold strictly to the Torah laws that they are not all necessary for us today. Since I do not see them following them as an issue blocking their salvation, I intend to depart this thread rather than have a pointless argument that won't change anyone's opinions.

 

[Riot Riot Riot]

When I turned to Messianic Judaism and started observing the true Sabbath, I did feel closer to the Father. It doesn't make me any better of a person, but I do feel closer.

This will be my first year celebrating Passover instead of Easter. I really enjoyed the significance of Hanukkah, so I'm sure I'll enjoy this even more.

I can't get all the high Sabbaths off of work, but I try to do what I can to keep them.

 

[SneakerPimp53]

That's exactly why the term "Judaizing" is entirely appropriate. It makes absolutely no sense to me why any Christian would abandon the celebration of the victory of Christ over death and the salvation of the whole world to celebrate death. The Pharaoh had a few shots to relent earlier for sure, but it's still a fairly grisly thing to celebrate. More so when the alternative is the celebration of the universal salvation of all mankind.

Hanukkah is so significant that the Jews all but forgot about it for centuries, until they decided they needed their own Christmas. So minor Jewish festival that fell into obscurity, or the birth of the savior of the world. Doesn't really seem like it should be much of a contest for a Christian. Christianity isn't "Judaism light."

 

[Rhamiel]

When I turned to Messianic Judaism and started observing the true Sabbath, I did feel closer to the Father. It doesn't make me any better of a person, but I do feel closer.

This will be my first year celebrating Passover instead of Easter. I really enjoyed the significance of Hanukkah, so I'm sure I'll enjoy this even more.

I can't get all the high Sabbaths off of work, but I try to do what I can to keep them.

God bless you sister
have you read First and Second Maccabees? it tells the story of Hanukkah

 

[Stravinsk]

That's exactly why the term "Judaizing" is entirely appropriate. It makes absolutely no sense to me why any Christian would abandon the celebration of the victory of Christ over death and the salvation of the whole world to celebrate death.

As I said in my first post here - there are those among Sabbath keepers (or I should speak for myself, those who attempt to keep Sabbath but do not always live up to it - but will preach it nonetheless) - anyway - among these there are a few of us who believe that Christ rose on the Sabbath (what we call Saturday) and reject the translation "first day of the week". This belief neccessitates there being both an annual and weekly Sabbath during passover week.

To those, therefore - celebrating on Saturday is as much a belief in the risen Christ as those who celebrate the resurrection on Sunday.

Bishop Gregory of Tours (A.D. 538-594) tells us that many in France believed Christ arose on the seventh day of the week, even though he himself defended a Sunday resurrection belief. He stated, "Now in our belief the resurrection of the Lord was on the first day, and not on the seventh as many deem - Gregory of Tours, The History of the Franks, Vol. 2, (trans. by D.M. Dalton), Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1927, p. 24.