The Sabbath: Why do Christians say Sunday?

Ceta_cea

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Thank you TanteBelle for posting your option. I have to admit I have kind of a problem with quotes :) Sorry for the disconfort.

Anyway after reading your post, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. It is nice to hear your option, but we clearly have very different option about it, but hey that is okay. We will see in time who of us is right.
 
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Shadesofgray

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Wow. There are some opinions in here that just blow my mind. I don't know how much you've gone in depth to research everything you've been saying TanteBelle, but I will definitely have to say I disagree with you heavily on what you say. I know that I will probably not be able to convince you with what I am about to say, but I will share it anyways.

The first thing I want to comment on is your claim that Christians call the Torah a curse. There is not a single christian I have ever met that would even dream of calling it a curse. That is a very false claim. We declare the it the word of God. Saying that we believe we are not under the old covenant established between Abraham and his descendants is nowhere near the same as saying that the Torah is a curse. We believe that God in the gift of his son established with us a new covenant because much of the old covenant no longer needed to be applied to us. It was full filled with the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Also, it would be a great sin to say that the Torah was a curse. How could we as Christians claim we believe the word of God is Holy and that he is a good and just God if we then declare half of our Holy Book to be a curse. I don't know where you got your information that Christians consider it a curse, but I can assure that at least among the vast majority of Christians, none of us would ever dream of calling it a curse.

Secondly I want to address the comments you made about Muslims. Being a follower of the laws of the Torah, I am sure that you are well aware that God gave many examples of when to punish breaking his law with death. Many of those same examples are the exact same things honor killings are performed for. If anything in that, they are much closer to following Old Testament law than we are. Have you actually studied Islam and their Holy Books? I have. I have a copy of the Koran on my bookshelf along with a few Bibles, books on Buddahism, Hinduism, and several other religious books. I think you should study other religious books before you pass judgement on a whole religion based on the actions of the extreme factions of a religion. I'm not saying that everything you mention is extreme, but there are parts of it that definitely is practiced only by extremists.

Next I want to address the following issue:

This is where we differ greatly because I don't believe that the HS is God at all.

I am curious, can you show these scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is not God? I'll be happy to show what I have found in the Bible that shows the Holy Spirit as God.

Matthew 3:16-Matthew 4:1 said:
At that moment heaven was opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

Isaiah 11:2 said:
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him -- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord -- and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:1 said:
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has annointed me to preach good news to the poor.

Gensis 1:2 said:
Now the Earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Isaiah 48:16 said:
And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.

And this is a big one:

Matthew 28:19 said:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

2 Corinthians 13:14 said:
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Note in this passage, Paul personifies again the Holy Spirit, and differntiates it from the Spirit of man which is not personified in the verse 2.

Philippians 2:1-2 said:
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.

Acts 5:3-4 said:
Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.

John 14:16-17 said:
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 said:
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Psalm 104:30 said:
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.

Interesting... the Spirit creates... but wait!

Colossians 1:16 said:
For by his him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him.

Remember, we recognize Jesus as the Son of God.

Matthew 1:18 said:
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:17-18 said:
Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unvield faces reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into is likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 said:
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?

Ok so the body is the Holy Spirit's temple... but wait? What does the Bible say about the body in 1 Corinthians 3?

1Corinthians 3:16 said:
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and God's Spirit lives in you?

The body is God's temple. That would mean that God and the Holy Spirit are the same...

1 Corinthians 1:13 said:
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

Here we see Paul asking the Corinthians if Christ was divided. Since his answer is clearly no, and one of the ways he asks if Christ was divided was by asking if they were baptized into Paul's name... well then that would mean that the Holy Spirt and God the Father must also be part of Christ or else Christ would be divided.

I could post examples all day of the divinity of the Spirit... there are many more... but I think this is sufficient.
 
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TanteBelle

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Thank you TanteBelle for posting your option. I have to admit I have kind of a problem with quotes :) Sorry for the disconfort.

Anyway after reading your post, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. It is nice to hear your option, but we clearly have very different option about it, but hey that is okay. We will see in time who of us is right.

Discomfort? No, it wasn't any prob at all! I can manage I think without multi quoting! LOL! But okay, if you want to separate parts of someone's post, you push the Quotation bubble button when you reply to a thread. Highlight what you want separated and then push the button

quote.gif


.... that button! It's before # on the tool bar! :D Good luck!

It's okay; I'm quite use to be very individual in faith. But if we're going to have faith, then we have to be able to back it up with God's word. I could be wrong, yes, but my opinions will only change if someone can contradict it with scripture.
 
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TanteBelle

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Wow. There are some opinions in here that just blow my mind. I don't know how much you've gone in depth to research everything you've been saying TanteBelle, but I will definitely have to say I disagree with you heavily on what you say. I know that I will probably not be able to convince you with what I am about to say, but I will share it anyways.

Crikey, mate! I'm trying to make this convo as placid as possible! LOL! :D Like I said, my views on God's word only change if you use God's word.

The first thing I want to comment on is your claim that Christians call the Torah a curse. There is not a single christian I have ever met that would even dream of calling it a curse. That is a very false claim. We declare the it the word of God. Saying that we believe we are not under the old covenant established between Abraham and his descendants is nowhere near the same as saying that the Torah is a curse. We believe that God in the gift of his son established with us a new covenant because much of the old covenant no longer needed to be applied to us. It was full filled with the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Also, it would be a great sin to say that the Torah was a curse. How could we as Christians claim we believe the word of God is Holy and that he is a good and just God if we then declare half of our Holy Book to be a curse. I don't know where you got your information that Christians consider it a curse, but I can assure that at least among the vast majority of Christians, none of us would ever dream of calling it a curse.

Actually, that's pretty much all I've ever heard Christianity call the torah. So, I am surprised at your view on that. Precious few Christians I've come across do not call the torah a curse. Very refreshing though! :D And torah is not the entire OT (well, in a strict sense, it's the entire Bible) but generally it's understood that the first 5 books are the torah. And yes, I agree that it is a sin to call the torah a curse. However, once again, the scripture they use to call torah a curse is a total misunderstanding of a quote by Paul. I just can't remember which passage it is but it is a famous one by Paul that they jump on to say that the torah was a curse and a bondage.

Secondly I want to address the comments you made about Muslims. Being a follower of the laws of the Torah, I am sure that you are well aware that God gave many examples of when to punish breaking his law with death. Many of those same examples are the exact same things honor killings are performed for. If anything in that, they are much closer to following Old Testament law than we are. Have you actually studied Islam and their Holy Books? I have. I have a copy of the Koran on my bookshelf along with a few Bibles, books on Buddahism, Hinduism, and several other religious books. I think you should study other religious books before you pass judgement on a whole religion based on the actions of the extreme factions of a religion. I'm not saying that everything you mention is extreme, but there are parts of it that definitely is practiced only by extremists.

Okay, there is a total difference with God's justice and judgement and Islam's idea of how to go about it. Yes, what they claim they are killing the person for are very similar to torah, however, never is corpral punishment in torah a brownie point in eternity! And many of these 'honour killings' are labeled as such when in fact, there was no wrong committed. God had very specific measure to make sure that justice was served out to the right person who really deserved it. I have an Israeli friend who's job in the army was to try sort out much of the Palestinian mess in their settlements and he knows quite personally what they are really up to. Yes, I have the koran but granted, I don't read it much. So, there are some things that I would gladly let you have the upper hand on knowing! :D

I am curious, can you show these scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is not God? I'll be happy to show what I have found in the Bible that shows the Holy Spirit as God.

We really are going to have to disagree here. Coz personally, none of the passages you brought up proved that the HS is God. You just mentioned passages about the HS, not ones that prove that he is God Himself. I can't post my views here as such views are not allowed on CF threads, so I'll have to PM them to you. :D
 
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TanteBelle

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One thing I have to add. When God Himself gave the torah to Moses and to Israel, guess what? He also included 'the stranger who sojourns with you'!! 'The alien'. 'Not only do I give this to those present this day, but those who are not with us this day!!!!' God did not separate the 'Jews' and speak to them only! He spoke to the Gentiles who were with them too! He told them that not only is Israel to keep these laws but anyone who wants to be counted in the commonwealth of God! God's simply given some household rules! If you want to be a part of God, why wouldn't you want to keep those rules, which God says, 'If a man do, he shall live by them!' God never gave torah to Israel and then say to the Gentiles with them, 'Love God and love your neighbour, that's all I have to say to you!' He didn't say that! To try fix God in your mind to want you want Him to be, dare I be so bold as to say that God labels that in the torah as idolatry! God has told Israel how He wants to be worshipped, how He wants to be represented, and how we are to please Him and give Him gifts. If you go outside of that, God says in torah that it is idolatry. I don't say that out of anger or hatred, but out of love for humanity because God has said it, why on earth are we trying to argue with God on His own rules?! He created the world, right? He created us? He was the one who gave torah? Who do we think we are to change those rules because they don't suit us? Fact is, we have no right! If you want to receive the blessings of God, you also have to accept the judgements and punishments of God! The curses of God if you don't obey His voice. In fact, we are commanded to 'love the judgements of God'! It is by loving even the judgements of God that Job was able to bless God with his lips despite being almost killed by God!
 
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Ronald

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To Tantebelle,
The sacrifices obviously because we know that Yeshua is the perfect Lamb.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator, the I Am who spoke to Moses and the Prophets? Do you believe that He has all authority in heaven and on earth? Why do I ask, because you don't believe in the triune God so there are problems with who you actually think Jesus is then.

'For we know that the torah is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin!'
Follow that to Romans 8:2 "For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death." The righteousness of the law was fulfilled by Christ for us.

God said, 'My covenants will I not break nor alter the thing that goes out of My lips!'
"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, says the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."Jer. 31:31-33
It is no longer a law written on tablets, it is written in our hearts.

Paul says elsewhere, 'For not the hearers of the torah are just before God but the DOERS OF THE TORAH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.' Paul describes torah as the 'perfect law of liberty'.
We are justified by faith not by works of the Law. Paul is speaking of the law of love which Jesus gave: "Love God with all your heart ... Love your neighbor ..." All commandments fall under these.

Bondage? Trying to keep 613 laws I'd say was bondage.

I wanted to be called a woman after God's heart as David was a man after His heart!
Just by reading your posts, I can tell you love God ... you are after His heart.:amen:

How do you follow the rules of an unseen God whom you can't have a one on one conversation with? You can't touch Him? You can't see Him? How do you do that? God had an answer; torah.
Just simply love eachother. By doing this is loving God.
You could actually keep the commandments: don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't lie, don't steal, don't covet, by ignoring and not communicating with all your neighbors. Would that be loving your neighbor or even helping them in any way? Christ criticized the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier laws of forgiveness and mercy and loving your neighbor. Keeping 256 Sabbath laws would prevent you from helping anyone on the Sabbath, since it was considered work. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and said He was the LORD of the Sabbath!
Very simply, the purpose of the Law was to show us what sin is. Without the Law there is no sin. By Grace, the Law of sin and death is abolished with the death of Christ.(Eph.2:15) By Grace we are saved, not by works of the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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TanteBelle

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Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator, the I Am who spoke to Moses and the Prophets? Do you believe that He has all authority in heaven and on earth? Why do I ask, because you don't believe in the triune God so there are problems with who you actually think Jesus is then.

Absolutely, I believe all that! But that still doesn't account for the trinity doctrine. :D Care to ask for details; just ask and I'll PM them to you! :D

Follow that to Romans 8:2 "For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death." The righteousness of the law was fulfilled by Christ for us.

You missed the following passage that I mentioned which said, 'For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.' So, if we're carnally minded, then we must become spiritually minded and that we can only do through Yeshua! :D The torah is spiritual, remember? So, the torah is the law of the spirit of life! But we can become spiritually minded through faith in Messiah. The law of sin and death, what is that? It can't be torah because even Paul calls it the perfect law of liberty, the law of life, and so on. 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die!'

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The law of sin and death is what separates us from Messiah. Messiah came so that by faith, we could be reconciled to God once again after we confess our sin and repent and turn back to God! :D


"
Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, says the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."Jer. 31:31-33
It is no longer a law written on tablets, it is written in our hearts.

Okay, first off, who was the NC made to? I don't know if you say this, but I'm just pointing it out as a general thinker; those who say that we aren't to become Israel; the NC was only made to Israel and Judah! You have to be either or! You can't claim the NC and reject Israel and Judah! :D

Okay, what is new about putting the torah on our hearts? The torah mentions having the laws of God on your hearts. David mentions about having the law on his heart. There's nothing new about having the torah on your heart. There's nothing new about God calling a people to Himself. So what was new? Hebrews 7 and 8 addresses what was the problem and what changed. The priesthood and the temple!


We are justified by faith not by works of the Law. Paul is speaking of the law of love which Jesus gave: "Love God with all your heart ... Love your neighbor ..." All commandments fall under these.

You make that claim but you just ignored the passage I quoted from Paul that say that the doers of torah are justified! So, how do we reconcile the two? We can't just throw one passage out coz it doesn't fit our argument, right? We are saved because we are justified by faith but our salvation is justified by obedience which involves our actions! James says, 'Faith without works is dead!' God said of Abraham, 'Because Abraham obeyed My commandments, statues, and judgements.' 'Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness.' 'And it shall be our righteousness if we observe to DO all these commandments that He has set before us this day.' 'Except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharasees, you shall in NO WISE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!' Yeshua said that! Our righteousness? What's that? God said what our righteousness is counted as back in torah! All the commandments are wrapped up in a huge summary in those two commandments. So, if you're going to only lie on those two (which are from torah, mind you), then how do you justify the throwing out of torah ............. 'oh but we'll keep the ten commandments (except the 4th!)' Who said that we can pick and choose what laws of God we can and can't keep? That's called DIY religion!

Bondage? Trying to keep 613 laws I'd say was bondage.

That whole 613 scare really grates on me because it's used merely to strike fear! 'Oh my! 613!!!' Really now, most of those are so pulled apart to create the 613 when in fact, they are all counted as the one command relating to the same issue! And when you start putting torah in action, you find that it becomes habitual! You do it without even thinking about it. It's a psychological fact that behaviours are a learned thing. So, if you have a bad behaviour, change it and practice a positive behaviour and soon you find that the positive behaviour is just a habitual thing. God knew that we were carnal and prone to bad behaviours so, He wrote down some good behaviours and throughout our life, we replace all those bad behaviours with good ones!

Just by reading your posts, I can tell you love God ... you are after His heart.:amen:

Bold and nice of you to say so, mate, but I'm not going to jump to that conclusion too quickly. God knows the uttermost deapth of my heart and I'd like for everything that isn't good there to be rooted out! :D

Just simply love eachother. By doing this is loving God.
You could actually keep the commandments: don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't lie, don't steal, don't covet, by ignoring and not communicating with all your neighbors. Would that be loving your neighbor or even helping them in any way? Christ criticized the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier laws of forgiveness and mercy and loving your neighbor. Keeping 256 Sabbath laws would prevent you from helping anyone on the Sabbath, since it was considered work. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and said He was the LORD of the Sabbath!

Okay, I'll go with that line of thinking for now; how do you put that into action? What one considers love another may consider hate. What moral code is merely 'love your neighbour'? I mean, it is moral to love your neighbour yes, but what actions are then specified as love? You don't really find much of it in the NT. But torah goes into heaps of detail as to how to love your neighbour! Everyone needs specific laws to help them know what is right and wrong. It'd be utter chaos if a nation said, 'Well, we can't burden the people with laws so we'll just say 'love your neighbour'!' It doesn't work and God knew that it wouldn't work!
The weightier issues, yes! What is worse here? Looking at a man who has an illness with pity but doing nothing for him? Or helping him on the Shabbat? What's worse here? Seeing a man who's naked, cold, and starving and just saying, 'Be thou warm, filled, and clothed!'? Or going out of your way to provide for him? Helping others was never considered work by torah!! That was what the Jews were teaching by tradition! That is what Yeshua was talking about. And what did Yeshua say is the weightier issues of torah (may I correct you on this one)? 1. JUDGEMENT, 2. Mercy, 3. Faith! What was weightier? David dying of hunger? Or the High Priest preserving his life with some of the consecrated bread? God is totally practical!!! Torah is all about preserving life! It was more of a sin to let a man die of starvation than to let him have some of your bread! There are not 256 laws for the Shabbat in torah. That is Jewish tradition and that is what Yeshua hit the Pharisees for! 'Teaching for commandments the doctrines of man!' 'By your traditions you make the word of God of none effect!' Yeshua was against them for the traditions, not because they preached torah. 'All that the scribes and Pharasees say, do! But don't do what they do for they say and do not!' 'Except your righteousness exceed the scribes and Pharasees, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven!' Whoa!! Now that's a biggie!!!


Very simply, the purpose of the Law was to show us what sin is. Without the Law there is no sin. By Grace, the Law of sin and death is abolished with the death of Christ.(Eph.2:15) By Grace we are saved, not by works of the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:clap: Yes, you said it! Torah is there to show man what he did wrong and how to come back to God! So, by your own words (and confirmed by the words of John), we can't know what is sin without the torah! If we're to repent of our sins, we can't do so without torah there to show us what is sin in the first place! If there was no torah to show us what sin is, then there is no sin because we can't sin against laws that don't exist. Yes, whereas once we were separated unto death because of our sin, Yeshua came and died for us that we may live unto faith in Messiah!
And yes, I agree with you, we are saved by grace and not by our works! You confused yourself though in that paragraph. You first said that torah is there to show us what sin is ...... that IS the works of the torah! If your works are what you do, then how can the torah's works be ..... what you do!? It should be what the torah does and Paul tells us what the torah does, 'For by the torah is the knowledge of sin'. That is the works of torah so Paul was merely stating a 'dah' fact that you can't receive salvation by the works of torah. That is what he calls 'hearers of torah' as well. But YOUR works are not the torah's works! 'And it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments as He has set before us this day!' There's a huge lesson just in knowing the difference between your works and torah's works and in knowing the difference between 'saved' and 'salvation'. :D
 
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TanteBelle

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i dont keep either, i am a rebel muahaha

No, I wouldn't call you that. I've just befriended some secular Jewish folks and there really seems to be something missing in how the Jews present their faith that is only chasing Jewish youth away from God and faith. The traditions? That God never even spoke of? I don't know; I'm trying to see the bigger issue there! Nice to meet you though!
 
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Ronald

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Absolutely, I believe all that! But that still doesn't account for the trinity doctrine.
Verses that present the triune God:Matt.3;16, 17; 1Pet. 1:2, 3:18; 1 John 5:6, 7; Eph. 2:18
Verses validating the distinct person of the Holy Spirit as being fully God: John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; Acts 1:8; Rom. 5:5; Gal. 5:22; Rom. 26, 27; Acts 1:16; 2Peter 1:21; Eph 4:30; Mark 3:29; 1Cor. 2:13; John 16:14, 15.
These verses confirm that we are the temple of "the Holy Spirit who teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us." (from Hell ... If I Know", pg.47) It's clear that the Father sent us another helper. So there you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 persons = one God.
The torah is spiritual, remember? So, the torah is the law of the spirit of life!
The Law is spiritual. But it is not the law of the spirit. It is the law of the flesh and so we have a dual nature, the flesh waring against the spirit. Where you get confused is that this law has a spiritual effect on the flesh. Messianic Jews tend to hold onto the Law and therefore are sometimes legalistic in there understanding.
[In the book of Acts, some of the Pharisees who weren't quite on board with the Gospel program insisted on circumcision of Gentile converts, one of their laws. Peter said, "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?... since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law' - to whom we gave no such commandment" Acts 15:10, 24] (Hell ... If I Know, pg.77)
The Apostles taught Christ crucified and grace through faith. The Pharisees accused them of teaching contrary to the Mosaic Law -- because they did! Paul did not spread legalism to the Gentiles. They just used the Law and the Prophets as a witness to validate who Jesus was - the Messiah.

The law of sin and death, what is that?
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."Rom. 3:20 And of course the wages of sin is death, hence the law of sin and death.



28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." 2Cor.3:14, 15
So, read and follow the Law and the veil is over your heart. Look to Christ and walk by the Spirit and the veil is lifted.



Okay, first off, who was the NC made to?
All believers in Christ. First the Jew then the Gentile.
Okay, what is new about putting the torah on our hearts?
In the OT, God dwelt in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies. Now the Spirit of God dwells in us and we have personal access to God. The Spirit guides us and counsels us, not the Torah. You seem to be locked into stating the TORAH is your guide. Words ... rules ... that you can't keep. If you try to keep them you will be judged by them. As Jesus said, all commandments fall under the two He gave us.



James says, 'Faith without works is dead!'

True, but the Holy Spirit is the one preparing and doing the works through you. Don't mistake the works in this passage as meaning "keeping the Law." The fruit of the Spirit is ove, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
'Except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharasees, you shall in NO WISE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!' Yeshua said that! Our righteousness? What's that?

He made this statement when He was still under the Old Covenant Law. He hadn't finished the task of fulfilling the Law of bringing in the NC yet. He was making a point that no one could by their own righteousness enter into the kingdom. In other words, no one can keep the law and enter. Righteousness, later realized, could only be imputed through faith in Christ. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ONLY THAT ALLOWS US ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM. Btw, Jesus said the Pharisees were going to Gehenna!
 
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TanteBelle

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Verses that present the triune God:Matt.3;16, 17; 1Pet. 1:2, 3:18; 1 John 5:6, 7; Eph. 2:18
Verses validating the distinct person of the Holy Spirit as being fully God: John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; Acts 1:8; Rom. 5:5; Gal. 5:22; Rom. 26, 27; Acts 1:16; 2Peter 1:21; Eph 4:30; Mark 3:29; 1Cor. 2:13; John 16:14, 15.
These verses confirm that we are the temple of "the Holy Spirit who teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us." (from Hell ... If I Know", pg.47) It's clear that the Father sent us another helper. So there you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 persons = one God.

Those passages merely mention the HS; they don't say that the HS is God and nowhere in all of scripture does it say that the HS is God.

The Law is spiritual. But it is not the law of the spirit. It is the law of the flesh and so we have a dual nature, the flesh waring against the spirit. Where you get confused is that this law has a spiritual effect on the flesh. Messianic Jews tend to hold onto the Law and therefore are sometimes legalistic in there understanding.

Wait a minute, if the torah is spiritual and God was the one who gave it, how can it be a negative thing? The torah is the spiritual law from/of God who is spirit. How does that suddenly equal a negative thing? It never says that the torah is the law of the flesh or that the torah is carnal. It didn't say that the torah has a spiritual effect, (we know it does anyway) but it said that the torah IS SPIRITUAL!
Hey, if I'm being called legalistic, I'll take that as a compliment! A legalist is someone who uphold that which is legal! :D

[In the book of Acts, some of the Pharisees who weren't quite on board with the Gospel program insisted on circumcision of Gentile converts, one of their laws. Peter said, "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?... since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law' - to whom we gave no such commandment" Acts 15:10, 24] (Hell ... If I Know, pg.77)

Aha! One of their laws, not God's law! It was Jewish tradition laws that demanded circumcision of Gentile converts; torah never asked it and so Peter's saying, 'Why are you putting on the necks of gentiles a yoke that God never asked of us and our father's were never expected to bear!?' These were Pharisees who were converts to Messianism but still holding on to Jewish traditions. Now with that other passage that mentioned the torah, you forget that in Acts 15, James says that the Gentile believers are already being taught the torah in the synagogues every Shabbat! Acts 15 and 21 are merely the apostles highlighting the main things that many torah teaches throughout the generations have labeled as the 'heart of torah' (quoting the laws from Leviticus 16-18, I think; don't quote me on that!).

The Apostles taught Christ crucified and grace through faith. The Pharisees accused them of teaching contrary to the Mosaic Law -- because they did! Paul did not spread legalism to the Gentiles. They just used the Law and the Prophets as a witness to validate who Jesus was - the Messiah.
So, in essense, what you are saying is that Moses was anti-Messiah!? Yeshua Himself said that Moses wrote of Him! So, to say that Messiah was against torah is to say that Moses was anti-Messiah, which is false. Paul most certainly did preach legalism to the Gentiles because he was preaching that which was legal! :D


"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."Rom. 3:20 And of course the wages of sin is death, hence the law of sin and death.

No offence but that was a stretch to label the torah as the law of sin and death when even NT says otherwise.


"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." 2Cor.3:14, 15
So, read and follow the Law and the veil is over your heart. Look to Christ and walk by the Spirit and the veil is lifted.

That chapter is talking about those of the spirit and those of the flesh and addressing Jews who don't accept Messiah. Through Messiah, the veil of torah is taken away, totally! The veil of the truth of torah! How can Yeshua put to death the very laws that spoke of Him? That Yeshua Himself came to be; the Living torah? It makes no sense whatsoever!

All believers in Christ. First the Jew then the Gentile.

With all due respect, but you're adding to God's word when I just posted from scripture what the answer is! 'I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah!' Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31! There is no mention of Jew first and then Gentile! The answer was right in front of you. Yeshua didn't die for everyone; He died for 'as many as for the remission of sins'. You can't enter the NC without faith in Messiah.

In the OT, God dwelt in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies. Now the Spirit of God dwells in us and we have personal access to God. The Spirit guides us and counsels us, not the Torah. You seem to be locked into stating the TORAH is your guide. Words ... rules ... that you can't keep. If you try to keep them you will be judged by them. As Jesus said, all commandments fall under the two He gave us.

The entire OT mentions about the HS dwelling in men. David talked about the HS in him. The HS in us is not a new thing at all. The HS is not a new thing at all. We were always able to have personal access to God, how else did Abraham speak to God personally?
Yes, the spirit guides ............ and never contradicts torah. Fact. When God gave the torah, He also gave them in Exodus 23:20 the 'angel' that would keep them in the way and if they didn't listen to him, the 'angel' would not pardon their transgressions! So, the 'angel', though it was there to keep them in the way of truth, could not have gone against torah either and the HS doesn't do that today.
Okay, yep, you got that right; the entire torah does fall under those two. But if I just do those two, does that mean that I've payed my fellow man back properly when I stole from him? Did I keep Shabbat? Did I speak the truth always? Did I worship God in a manner which He specified He wanted to be? Did I learn about hygiene to prevent my family getting sick? Did I learn about how to properly grow plants? To just say, 'Love your neighbour' doesn't tell me rip about WHAT I am to do.

True, but the Holy Spirit is the one preparing and doing the works through you. Don't mistake the works in this passage as meaning "keeping the Law." The fruit of the Spirit is ove, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

No, it says that the works are mine, not the HS's. I am to do something, not the HS. The HS will convict me, but I still have to do the work. There's no point in saying, 'Well, the HS convicted me to do this and therefore, that's my work.' No, that's the work of the HS. Okay, so how do I put those 'fruits of the spirit' into action? I have love! How do I show love? What is love? I have joy! How do I show joy? What is joy? I have faith! How do I show faith? What is faith? Those 'fruits of the spirit' aren't absract things; they're verbs! So, if I'm going to have the fruits of the spirit, and I can't have salvation by doing anything, then according to you, the fruits of the spirit are purely an abstract thing! ????? :confused: They can't be something that I put into action and my faith shouldn't have any action because I can't be justified through faith by my actions. The passage of James has no effect, then.

He made this statement when He was still under the Old Covenant Law. He hadn't finished the task of fulfilling the Law of bringing in the NC yet. He was making a point that no one could by their own righteousness enter into the kingdom. In other words, no one can keep the law and enter. Righteousness, later realized, could only be imputed through faith in Christ. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ONLY THAT ALLOWS US ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM. Btw, Jesus said the Pharisees were going to Gehenna!

Okay, so Paul and the apostles then can say, 'All that Yeshua said, don't do, because He was under the OC and we are now under the NC through Him. So, though He said it, don't do it!' ??????? Really now! How convenient. He can't fulfill all of the torah and the prophets as yet, because the world hasn't ended! Yeshua said, 'Think not I come to destroy the torah or the prophets, I come not to destroy but to fulfill!' Now, you read that and say, 'I come not to destroy but to ........... destroy/do away with ....'
No, He wasn't trying to make any such point because He commanded the people saying, 'ALL that the scribes and Pharisees tell you to do, do it! But don't do what they do for they say and do not!' What were they saying and telling the people to do but weren't doing themselves? Torah! Abraham believed God and God counted that as righteousness. Israel kept torah and God counted that as righteousness. Now you're saying that that was all a lie? They lived a lie? You can't do anything and that be counted as righteousness?

And the bold is not found in scripture at all. Scripture totally contradicts that idea. Yeshua Himself contradicted that idea in Matthew 7:21-23. Yes, Yeshua did condemn the Pharisees, but not because they kept torah. Otherwise according to your belief, Yeshua was condemning Himself because He was 'under the OC'. Yeshua was against them 'teaching for commandments the doctrines of man.' They were burdening the people with Jewish tradition that was not in torah.

Okay, look. Here's the crux of it. How is it, that God can 'repent' (not the right term used in scripture but there nonetheless; we know God doesn't sin) for thinking to wipe Israel out and save only Moses. He can 'repent' for making Saul king. He can 'repent' of numerous of other things in scripture, but you never, ever hear God 'repent' of giving a 'bondage' to Israel? What a heartless God! He allowed 4000 years of humanity to live and prosper if they kept torah and 4000 years of humanity to die and be enslaved if they broke it. He scattered the northern kingdom of Israel throughout all the earth because they broke it .......... and it was all one big booboo!? One very huge mistake!? God didn't really know all things after all! If He can make such a huge mistake with humanity then I'm not sure I want that God coz how can He show me the way when He 'allowed' 4000 years of humanity to live and die under such a 'burden/curse/death', whatever Christianity wishes to call it, that merely separated man from God!? Scripture hasn't gotten the characteristics of God right then. He does lie. He does break His commandments. He isn't the same YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER. He is a respector of persons. And He does change. By all good conscience and common sense, with all due respect but I can not accept such a thing! You never hear Yeshua 'repenting' for giving torah or telling them that when He dies, what He said changes. You never hear the apostles 'repent' for Him. So, if something as critical as that is never mentioned, why do folks think that somehow it's changed? God said that if a man does torah, he shall live by it! David said torah is life and converts the soul. Paul says that torah is liberty. And now Christianity is telling me otherwise?
 
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Ronald

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TanteBelle,
You want so very badly to hold onto the TORAH. You are very defensive about it and I'm not inclined to take it away from you. I think I've said all I can without committing myself to writing a book for you. God Bless you sister.
I would love to someday scuba dive in the Great Barrier Reef. It must be nice. That movie Australia is one of my favorites too.
I'll leave you with one more scripture: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster." Gal. 3:24, 25 Schoolmaster can be translated as pedagogue or babysitter. Time to graduate sister.
 
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TanteBelle

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TanteBelle,
You want so very badly to hold onto the TORAH. You are very defensive about it and I'm not inclined to take it away from you. I think I've said all I can without committing myself to writing a book for you. God Bless you sister.
I would love to someday scuba dive in the Great Barrier Reef. It must be nice. That movie Australia is one of my favorites too.
I'll leave you with one more scripture: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster." Gal. 3:24, 25 Schoolmaster can be translated as pedagogue or babysitter. Time to graduate sister.

Hey, we can write books back and forth, no?! ;) LOL! I kid. Am I allowed to comment on that last scripture? I agree with it, but you've taken it out of meaning of what schoolmaster means. When we were in school, we didn't know things and therefore we had someone to teach us what we needed to learn. But once we matured and knew the truth, did we throw out all that our schoolmaster taught us? Was all his wisdom suddenly of no importance to us and in the end useless to us? No, we held on to it and we kept it not as children trying to learn but as mature people putting into practice. Torah is there to teach us truth and bring us unto Messiah, but when we start to become 'spiritually minded', we shouldn't be like children having to learn the basics. We should be mature and putting it into practice. As Paul said, 'I had to take you back to the first oracles of God and put you on milk before I could feed you on the meat.' What's he talking about? Children in faith/babes in faith. And there's nothing wrong with that at all! That's how we start out.

Hey, Aussie land is THE BEST!!!!! Totally biased yes, but nothing wrong with the truth! ;) Haha! It is amazing ...... as long as you don't see any sharks! Meeheeheee!
 
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Those passages merely mention the HS; they don't say that the HS is God and nowhere in all of scripture does it say that the HS is God.


The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is a person Whom the Father sends to live in the believer of Christ. If He has all the abilities of God: omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence and has all the qualities of God, then He is God. If He is not, then who do you think is living in this temple, some angel? Angels do not have these abilities or qualities. Again "He teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives all truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is all wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us."

God lives in the temple (of the Christian) which btw is a spiritual design of the OT Temple.
Have you been baptised by the Holy Spirit? If you do not ask for the HS and don't believe that He is God, then He may not take residence in you and that would explain much. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is considered the unforgivable sin. I'm not saying you are doing this but saying that He is not God and not acknowledging Him is getting close. The Jehovah Witnesses think He is a force and therefore are in the dark. When they preach, they completely misrepresent Christ and misinterpret scriptures on a regular basis.
As one gets filled with the Holy Spirit, he is able to walk in the Spirit of God. He is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ.
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
 
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TanteBelle

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No, I don't believe that the HS is just a force, but a spiritual being. Some folks do have very strange ideas about the HS yes, but scripture clearly says that the HS is a spiritual being and not a 'force' or the 'power of God' as some others say. :D
And I don't believe that you immediately have the HS when you are saved and Acts addresses that fact. So, have I been baptised in the HS? I don't know, how do you know? I do pray for the HS and I do listen to my 'conscience' when I'm convicted on something. Is that the HS working? I have no idea. I don't like to jump to conclusions about things that I don't know fully on and I'm not about to claim that I have been baptised in the HS. And that passage from 1 John was not in the original but was added in by Christian translators to try prove the theory of the trinity and it doesn't stand.
 
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memoriesbymichelle

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Blind post - Romans 14:5,6 addresses this.

"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks."
 
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