The Rev is the "last" study

[Interplanner]

After working in NT background for several decades, I have an advisory for new students. Get the ordinary language passages about the return and judgement of God down first. Once you know that on the final day, there is going to be the judgement of God, does it really matter if you know 21 forms of it? the constant struggle to decipher symbols is probably not what the apostles had in mind for it.

Ordinary-language passages are found in Rom 2, 8, 1 Cor 15, Heb 9, Acts 17, 2 Pet 3. Mt 24B is as well, but there are a few lines borrowed from OT images.

You also want to know the doctrine of justification very well. Justification has to do with judgement and with God's acts of judging. It is a verdict or declaration that a person is, for whatever reason, found not guilty. You will find this in Rom 3-5, following Paul's sharp description of God's standards for judging humanity, Jew or Gentile, chs 1-2. It is not about the "initial" experience of becoming a Christian. Don't follow anyone who puts it in that category. It is actually needed throughout a Christian's life otherwise things are hopeless. The older Paul got the more he realized its ongoing value. It is as though we enjoy the benefit--the verdict--of the day of judgement in the present.

Because it is Christ's righteousness (his just life) that justifies us, God is fairly described as being "just and the justifier" of the person who relies on Christ (Rom 3). Justification is proved by the fact that Christ was resurrected, as the OT passages said, and quoted heavily by the apostles: Ps 16, Ps 2, etc. The resurrection, offering this justification, is therefore the promise to the fathers. Not to the ethnos, the genetic ancestors, but to those who were believers, and have the faith of Abraham, Acts 13's sermon says. That is who God has been working with the whole time.

Once that is appreciated, there might be some use to the sensational prophecies or signs, but I can't think of it. Of all the things to study, the Rev is last.

Every believer should have Rom 3:21-26 solidly embedded in their thinking; it is the Gettysburg address of Christianity. There are few passages that square away so many things so efficiently.

 

[Achilles6129]

Of all the things to study, the Rev is last.

I disagree with virtually all of your post, of course, but honestly, what difference does it make what order one studies the Bible in? Why should a book that promises to bless everyone it reads be studied the last? What if one simply wants to study Revelation first?

I personally think that people should study Scripture in whatever order they choose. One could make onself a plan, of course, but I think it makes no real difference - the entire Bible really communicates the same concepts from the OT to the NT.

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 1:

Once you know that on the final day, there is going to be the judgement of God, does it really matter if you know 21 forms of it?

Regarding "on the final day, there is going to be the judgement of God", note that in verses like John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

Interplanner said in post 1:

the constant struggle to decipher symbols is probably not what the apostles had in mind for it.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

The future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian, regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through it, just as the past fulfillment of, for example, Genesis chapters 1 to 11, should be relevant to every Christian, regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is relevant to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Interplanner said in post 1:

You also want to know the doctrine of justification very well. Justification has to do with judgement and with God's acts of judging. It is a verdict or declaration that a person is, for whatever reason, found not guilty. You will find this in Rom 3-5, following Paul's sharp description of God's standards for judging humanity, Jew or Gentile, chs 1-2. It is not about the "initial" experience of becoming a Christian.

Regarding "It is not about the 'initial' experience of becoming a Christian", note that the ideas of initial justification/salvation and ultimate justification/salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

I disagree with virtually all of your post, of course, but honestly, what difference does it make what order one studies the Bible in? Why should a book that promises to bless everyone it reads be studied the last? What if one simply wants to study Revelation first?

I personally think that people should study Scripture in whatever order they choose. One could make onself a plan, of course, but I think it makes no real difference - the entire Bible really communicates the same concepts from the OT to the NT.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

Bible2 said it best, the prophecies wont make sense until they are unfolding..

What do we know about the Bible and Prophecy?

It happens exactly the way it says it will.. Every time..


The Bibles Prophecies are non negotiable, and they cant be stopped from unfolding as God knew they would.

 

[Douggg]

After working in NT background for several decades, I have an advisory for new students. Get the ordinary language passages about the return and judgement of God down first. Once you know that on the final day, there is going to be the judgement of God, does it really matter if you know 21 forms of it? the constant struggle to decipher symbols is probably not what the apostles had in mind for it.

Ordinary-language passages are found in Rom 2, 8, 1 Cor 15, Heb 9, Acts 17, 2 Pet 3. Mt 24B is as well, but there are a few lines borrowed from OT images.

You also want to know the doctrine of justification very well. Justification has to do with judgement and with God's acts of judging. It is a verdict or declaration that a person is, for whatever reason, found not guilty. You will find this in Rom 3-5, following Paul's sharp description of God's standards for judging humanity, Jew or Gentile, chs 1-2. It is not about the "initial" experience of becoming a Christian. Don't follow anyone who puts it in that category. It is actually needed throughout a Christian's life otherwise things are hopeless. The older Paul got the more he realized its ongoing value. It is as though we enjoy the benefit--the verdict--of the day of judgement in the present.

Because it is Christ's righteousness (his just life) that justifies us, God is fairly described as being "just and the justifier" of the person who relies on Christ (Rom 3). Justification is proved by the fact that Christ was resurrected, as the OT passages said, and quoted heavily by the apostles: Ps 16, Ps 2, etc. The resurrection, offering this justification, is therefore the promise to the fathers. Not to the ethnos, the genetic ancestors, but to those who were believers, and have the faith of Abraham, Acts 13's sermon says. That is who God has been working with the whole time.

Once that is appreciated, there might be some use to the sensational prophecies or signs, but I can't think of it. Of all the things to study, the Rev is last.

Every believer should have Rom 3:21-26 solidly embedded in their thinking; it is the Gettysburg address of Christianity. There are few passages that square away so many things so efficiently.

Hi Inter, if we were enrolled as seminary students on what courses to take first, then maybe you have a point. But otherwise, you don't

Nice paragraph on "You also want to know the doctrine of justification very well. Justification has to do with judgement and with God's acts of judging....." just the same.


Doug

 

[Biblewriter]

After working in NT background for several decades, I have an advisory for new students. Get the ordinary language passages about the return and judgement of God down first. Once you know that on the final day, there is going to be the judgement of God, does it really matter if you know 21 forms of it? the constant struggle to decipher symbols is probably not what the apostles had in mind for it.

Ordinary-language passages are found in Rom 2, 8, 1 Cor 15, Heb 9, Acts 17, 2 Pet 3. Mt 24B is as well, but there are a few lines borrowed from OT images.

You also want to know the doctrine of justification very well. Justification has to do with judgement and with God's acts of judging. It is a verdict or declaration that a person is, for whatever reason, found not guilty. You will find this in Rom 3-5, following Paul's sharp description of God's standards for judging humanity, Jew or Gentile, chs 1-2. It is not about the "initial" experience of becoming a Christian. Don't follow anyone who puts it in that category. It is actually needed throughout a Christian's life otherwise things are hopeless. The older Paul got the more he realized its ongoing value. It is as though we enjoy the benefit--the verdict--of the day of judgement in the present.

Because it is Christ's righteousness (his just life) that justifies us, God is fairly described as being "just and the justifier" of the person who relies on Christ (Rom 3). Justification is proved by the fact that Christ was resurrected, as the OT passages said, and quoted heavily by the apostles: Ps 16, Ps 2, etc. The resurrection, offering this justification, is therefore the promise to the fathers. Not to the ethnos, the genetic ancestors, but to those who were believers, and have the faith of Abraham, Acts 13's sermon says. That is who God has been working with the whole time.

Once that is appreciated, there might be some use to the sensational prophecies or signs, but I can't think of it. Of all the things to study, the Rev is last.

Every believer should have Rom 3:21-26 solidly embedded in their thinking; it is the Gettysburg address of Christianity. There are few passages that square away so many things so efficiently.

For once, I largely agree with you. While everything God has to say is important, until a person fully understands his or her personal guilt before God and the enormity of the salvation offered by God through the death of his Son, very little else matters.

And after a person is truly saved, a thorough knowledge of what God wants us to do and how He wants us to live is more important than most other doctrines.

But some imagine that the other parts are not important. This is totally incorrect. Prophecy fills about a third of the Bible, so a balanced study program requires that a student devotes about a third of his or her Bible study time to prophecy.

But even when prophecy is studied, the Revelation is not the right place to begin. It is an advanced book. It it physically impossible to even begin to Understand the Revelation before most of the rest of Bible prophecy is understood.

The reason for this is that the Revelation is an apocalypse. That is, it presents its concepts in symbolic form. But the meanings of the symbols used are not left up to our imagination. Most of them are explained in other parts of the Bible. And without a knowledge of how these symbols are used in the rest of the Bible, it is impossible to understand the Revelation.

I will here quote part of the preface to my book on Bible prophecy:

"It seems of late there are hundreds of new books on Bible prophecy. These books present such a wide variety of interpretations that many conclude it is impossible to ever really understand the subject. Why does this babble of competing voices exist? It is the natural result of a basic error. Many Bible students are simply not aware of many prophecies that are expressly stated in plain words. Not being aware these prophecies exist, they have never felt a need to study them. They are attempting to interpret the deep, mysterious parts of Biblical prophecy, but do not know about many simple parts. Since 'no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,' (2 Peter 1:19) this has left them without important scriptural reference points for evaluating their interpretations. So they are unable to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable conclusions.

"This book is an attempt to address this problem. It reviews many prophecies that are stated so clearly they need no interpretation. The deep, mysterious parts are simply left out. The point of this book is to minimize interpretation by concentrating on expressly stated prophecies...

"Once the simple prophecies discussed in this book have been thoroughly understood, a Bible student will have a foundation for interpreting more difficult prophecies. Such interpretation is outside of the subject matter of this book. But a few helpful sections have been included in an appendix. The first of these presents key concepts for interpreting Bible prophecy. The second is a list of key principles of prophetic interpretation...

"Most important of all, we must remember that the Bible is the word of God. 'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' (2 Timothy 3:16) Because it comes from God, it must be treated with reverence. We are not free to interpret the Bible as we please. Instead, we are responsible to learn what it teaches. The fact that it comes from God means that it is completely accurate in all of its details. It is important to pay careful attention to the fine details in each prophecy. It is in these details that we learn where and how they apply. This book is largely a study of these details, and of what they teach us about the various prophecies involved.

"Some will doubtless complain that I have skipped around all over the Bible to put this outline together. But God says that “precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” (Isaiah 28:10) The prophetic scriptures were not simply written out in a continuous story. Coming events were scattered about in an apparently haphazard fashion. This was done for a reason. Jesus told His own that “it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” (Matthew 13:11) Those who really want to know God’s prophetic message can find it. But this is possible only through diligent study. This book is presented as a help in that study."

- From "Keys to Bible Prophecy," by James C. Morris, this is copyright material, but I have maintained the rights to quote it at will.

 

[Biblewriter]

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal bodies into immortal, physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:16), just like the immortal, physical body that he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

This is serious bad doctrine. The epistle to the Galatians was written specifically to combat this error, which strikes at the very heart of the salvation message. If anyone's ultimate salvation depends on what he or she does, no one will ever arrive in heaven, and Jesus died for nothing.

But that is not a subject for this sub-forum. It belongs in the soterology forum.

 

[Interplanner]

but it is a revelation of a person, not a string of events

 

[Interplanner]

Achilles,
I don't mean a chronological or front to back order, when I am refering to order. I'm refering to the pulse, heart, passion. It is not prophecy the way it is known here. Not at all.

Instead you would get it from how Rom 3 sounds, or Acts 13's sermon sounds, or Gal 3 (which deals with many "prophecy" supports, but see for yourself--it is not about prophecy). Rom 9-11 is not trying to say or solve anything in the future either. The question at hand there is, given the glories of the gospel in 1-8, what is it about Israel that so few of them believe? The question, asked by Gentiles, assumes there was some 'magic' reason why the race would be an advantage, or the ancestry. There is not.

Then there is how Mt24A & //s pins itself to the 1st century Judean situation. It reads more like a warning about a fanatical revolt, which is why the historian Latourette says so. Not prophecy as done here!

 

[Interplanner]

On doug's point:
whether at a seminary or not, we are all to be devoted to the apostles' doctrine which was mostly taught them in the manner of Lk 24, showing the suffering and glory of Christ from the OT. The glory is not the "later, future" part. No way. there is almost no space, no 'daylight' between the two when you look at Acts 2:30,31. This is also why Paul, in total harmony, said the resurrection was the enthronement and the reception of David's promises by Christ since his victory entitled him to them, in the standard, sample, official sermon recorded in Acts 13.

and I haven't mentioned any detail from eph 1 which was circulated to all christian groups.

 

[Biblewriter]

Bible2 said it best, the prophecies wont make sense until they are unfolding..

I don't believe he said that in this thread, but I think I remember him saying this. But it is not correct. The Revelation opens with the words,

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John." (Revelation 1:1)

If God gave it to show us things which must shortly take place, He intended it to be understood now, not later.


But Jesus said, "it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. " (Matthew 13:11-12)


God never intended His word to be understood by those that choose to disbelieve it. That is why it has been given in a way that can only be understood through the leading of the Holy Spirit. And that is why even real Christians who choose to not believe it find themselves wholly unable to understand it.


The vast bulk of Bible prophecy is stated in plain words. And as plain words, there is nothing hard to understand about it. But God hmself said, "Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." (Isaiah 28:9-1) We can only truly understand the prophetic message through diligent study.

And the parts that are symbolic are mostly represented in symbols that are explained elsewhere in the Bible. That is why Interplanner is correct that the Revelation, which is mostly symbolic, is an topic for advanced students, not for beginners.

What do we know about the Bible and Prophecy?

It happens exactly the way it says it will.. Every time..


The Bibles Prophecies are non negotiable, and they cant be stopped from unfolding as God knew they would.

All this is completely and absolutely true.