The Pre-Tribulation Myth

[Bible2]

franky67 said in post #79:

. . . it says very plainly "as many as do not worship the image of the beast will be killed"

That was addressed near the end of post #75.

Revelation 13:15b means as many as the Antichrist's forces can get their hands on. For other scriptures make clear that they won't be able to get their hands on every obedient Christian (Revelation 12:6,14-16), or on every unsaved elect Jew (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14).

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franky67 said in post #79:

and the remaining verses go on to make it clear that without the mark, no one can buy, or sell. think this means food ?

Yes. But the obedient Christians represented by the woman in Revelation 12:6,14-16 will still be fed (Revelation 12:6b).

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franky67 said in post #79:

In Chapter 12, the woman who fled into the wilderness is, guess who ?

That was addressed in the 2nd to last section of post #36.

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franky67 said in post #79:

. . . who gave birth to a son, who would rule the nations with a rod of iron, guess who?

That was addressed in the 3rd to last section of post #36.

 

[PeterAV]

Ok, you have it wrong. But what good would it do for me to tell you, because your mind is already made up. The only thing that will change your mind is you figuring out you are wrong.

Example. a man went to a barn one day and there sat a dozen pumpkins. He asked the farmer what was the deal about these pumpkins and the farmer responded that these were the first fruits of his crop.

Now given the information that the dozen pumpkins were the first fruits of the crop, what crop would you expect the farmer to harvest. Corn? Wheat? Peaches? No, you would expect the farmers harvest to be pumpkins because the first fruits were pumpkins.

Now applying this simple truth to the Bible, we see 144,000 people from the 12 tribes sealed in Rev 7 and we see them in heaven in Rev 14. We also are told in Rev 14:4 that these 144,000 are the first fruits of a coming harvest which we see in Rev 14:15-16. Now we know that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the tribes. Since we know what the first fruits are, what do you suppose the crop is going to be? The church? Gentiles? the wicked? No, the harvest will be Israel.

So, now that you know the truth, is it going to change your mind? Are you going to come to a realization that you are wrong? Or are you going to continue to substitute the church for the 144,000 despite the Bible being perfectly clear who those 144,000 are.

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And just who does the bible say is ALL ISRAEL? The nation? Nope. They are of Satan, as Jesus said. They need a saviour just like me. Romans 9:6-8
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PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[PeterAV]

Choose Wisely states:

I say the triblation is over in Rev 6 when the sun and moon are darkened and I say the proof is Matt 24 when it says immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened etc.

How in the world can you conclude that the tribulation is not over?

Believe it or not, but Jesus comes once more to bring judgment upon this wicked world.
There is no pre-trib rapture, otherwise folk would have posted the verse years ago and thousands of times like the biblical post tribbers do.
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Jesus comes once, it is shown in the sixth and seventh seal, the seventh trumpet and the sixth and seventh vial. Including Rev 14, & 19.
There are not 5 separate comings but one described several ways.
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Please note Revelation 16:15 behold, I am coming as a thief. This is after the tribulation and after the vials of wrath and after the first 5 seals.
Post trib no matter which way you look at it.
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PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[PeterAV]

Just got time for the most obvious errors this time


plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20
These are beheaded, then came to life and reigned with Christ Rev. 20:4
They were killed on earth.,, heads cut off, like dead.

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship, You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

Post Tribulation will not fly.

And yes it is UP, cause vapor clouds are in the UP direction.

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The definitive pre-trib verse is __________. Exactly zip, notta, zilcho.
But post trib rapture? many, in fact all.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation.
John 12:48
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The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inherit the earth. Proverbs 10:30 Don't believe the word of God ey? For shame.
Professing themselves wise, they become fools,etc.
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PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[PeterAV]

Unbiblical assertion.=

You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

Post Tribulation will not fly.

Revelation 13 AC persecution
Revelation 14: 8 Babylon is fallen
Revelation 14:15,16 earth is reaped
Revelation 14:19 the wrath of God.
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This is the order.
Note that the saints are yet on earth 14:12,13
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Clearly post trib.
Scriptures trump any opinionator.

 

[PeterAV]

Just got time for the most obvious errors this time


plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20
These are beheaded, then came to life and reigned with Christ Rev. 20:4
They were killed on earth.,, heads cut off, like dead.

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship, You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

Post Tribulation will not fly.

And yes it is UP, cause vapor clouds are in the UP direction.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Those that were beheaded were walking around on earth until the AC lopped off their heads.
Show me this definitive pre-trib verse that has the resurrection seven years before the resurrection.
The definitive pre-trib verse is _________.
Prophecy: No pre-trib verse put forward, but only opinions.
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PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[L0U]

Unbiblical assertion.=
Revelation 13 AC persecution
Revelation 14: 8 Babylon is fallen
Revelation 14:15,16 earth is reaped
Revelation 14:19 the wrath of God.
*******
This is the order.
Note that the saints are yet on earth 14:12,13
*******
Clearly post trib.
Scriptures trump any opinionator.

This has come down unchanged from antiquity and is both Biblically and traditionaly sound doctrine.

1. Apostacy, which will occasion the rise of......
2. antiChrist, who will intensely persecute the Church in the.....
3. Great tribulation, which will be the flashpoint that ignites...
4. The Day of the Lord.

"The antiquity of a view weighs in its favor, especially when that antiquity reaches back to the apostolic age. For those who received their doctrine first-hand from the apostles and from those who heard them stood in a better position to judge what was apostolic doctrine than we who are many centuries removed." (Robert Gundry: The Church And The Tribulation, pg. 172)

 

[PeterAV]

This has come down unchanged from antiquity and is both Biblically and traditionaly sound doctrine.

1. Apostacy, which will occasion the rise of......
2. antiChrist, who will intensely persecute the Church in the.....
3. Great tribulation, which will be the flashpoint that ignites...
4. The Day of the Lord.

"The antiquity of a view weighs in its favor, especially when that antiquity reaches back to the apostolic age. For those who received their doctrine first-hand from the apostles and from those who heard them stood in a better position to judge what was apostolic doctrine than we who are many centuries removed." (Robert Gundry: The Church And The Tribulation, pg. 172)

How in the world do you get "UNBIBLICAL" when all I did was give scripture in its order? Then you leave the scriptures as your final authority, and run to opinions? It is clear that scriptures trumps any opinions.
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PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Opinions are not.
That is why we have juries.

 

[L0U]

Peter, when I hit the quote button the words 'unbiblical assertions' was included in the quote. Go back a few post to #85, hit the quote button and you will see what happened.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Biblewriter]

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The definitive pre-trib verse is __________. Exactly zip, notta, zilcho.
But post trib rapture? many, in fact all.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation.
John 12:48
*******
The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inherit the earth. Proverbs 10:30 Don't believe the word of God ey? For shame.
Professing themselves wise, they become fools,etc.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

You are in gross error in insisting on "a verse" for any doctrine of scripture. For we are explicitly told that "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:20-21) In insting that this be shown from just one verse, you are trying to interpret a passage of scripture privately, that is, in absebs=ce of all the rst of what the scriptures say on the subject. You are also insisting on a division of scripture that was not pit there by God. It is a well known and undeniable fact that the scriptures, as God gave them, were not divided up into chapters and verses.

I have shown that Revelation 3:10 plainly says that the faithful will be kept from (ek) the hour of temptation.

I have also presented extensive proof that the scriptures clearly show that Jesus is going to return more than just one time. This is conclusive proof that all the scriptures about Jesus coming after the tribulation do not in any way indicate that the rapture is after the tribulation.



You are rejecting the clear teaching of scripture.

 

[Interplanner]

Peter,
do you realize that Mt24:29 has a historical sense to it? Mt24A refers to 1st century Judean traumas. The end of the world was expected right after, with the allowance that the Father could delay. He did. Mt24:29 is therefore unrelated your issue.

As for those cataclysms, Jesus did direct the believers to leave the country when certain things happened, and they did leave, by and large.

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 90:

I have shown that Revelation 3:10 plainly says that the faithful will be kept from (ek) the hour of temptation.

Regarding Revelation 3:10, the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Biblewriter said in post 90:

I have also presented extensive proof that the scriptures clearly show that Jesus is going to return more than just one time.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him descending from heaven to wage war and to reign over the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But nothing in the Old Testament or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old Testament and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation, 2nd coming.

Biblewriter said in post 90:

You are rejecting the clear teaching of scripture.

Note that the post-tribulation rapture view per se doesn't reject any clear teaching of scripture. Instead, the post-tribulation rapture view admits the fact that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. And the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 91:

Mt24A refers to 1st century Judean traumas. The end of the world was expected right after, with the allowance that the Father could delay.

Note that the timing referred to in Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't what was merely "expected", but was what Jesus himself taught about when his 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church will occur in relation to the never-fulfilled tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (cf. also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

For an example of how that tribulation has never been fulfilled, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 91:

As for those cataclysms, Jesus did direct the believers to leave the country when certain things happened, and they did leave, by and large.

Regarding Matthew 24:16 and "Judaea", note that this doesn't have to mean first-century Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).