The Pre-Tribulation Myth

[PeterAV]

It is so sad to see so many of God's people becoming deceived about the resurrection which is clearly at the last day.
Biblical proof?
Easy!
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how clear that is? Absolutely obvious. But let us do it with two or three witnesses to make sure this biblical principle is established in the Bible as absolute proof.
*******
Why looky here, Jesus knew there would be a huge doubting populace in the church so he repeats it right away so one has absolutely NO EXCUSE.
*******
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that?
The Bible compliments the Bible and exposes the words of man.
According to scriptures, the resurrection happens on the last day, not seven years before.
But let us continue to be obedient to the Bible and look for two or more witnesses.
*******
Well, why looky here!
Some wonderful truths here in the word of God.
Look at this! Yet another 100% backup of scripture.
*******
John 6:44
No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how scripture is absolutely plain and stops all private interpretation?
When you read a book, to understand it, you need to understand the author's terms and definitions. You don't stick your own limited understandings into it, but look at what the author continues to say about it.
*******
But just in case there are those that are yet not believing the word of God as the final authority, I have more proof straight from God's own word.
*******
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my fleash, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that? Scripture backs up scripture to make certain that you CAN know the absolute truth about the resurrection. But the word of God is very fine and has even more proof.
*******
Here is yet another scripture doing what is expected...scripture backing up scripture so that we are without excuse. Get it? Well here it is..
*******
John 11:24
Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
*******

Just how many times does God have to repeat himself before it sinks in our rebellious heads and hearts!?
It is so clear that the resurrection is at the LAST DAY. There is no wiggle room.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[Biblewriter]

The Greek word translated day in the expression "the last day" is hemera (word number 2250 in Strong's Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows:

"Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἡμαι he-mai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):—age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years."

The figurative use of this word as a period of time is found in Luke 6:22-23. "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

When they were hated, and separated from the company of the others, and reproached, and villified as evil, then they should rejoice. And the time when they should so rejoice is called "that day."

We see this again in John 8:56, where Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Jesus' day went all the way back to the time of Abraham.

We see it again in John 16:23-27, where Jesus called all the time after his resurrection "that day." "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

We see it again in Acts 8:1, where we read, "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." A persecution that only lasted one day would not scatter the entire church except for the Apostles. Yet the Greek word translated time in this sentence is this same Greek word hemera which literally means day.

We see this again in Acts 15:7, where peter said, "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." The Greek word translated while in this sentence is this same hemera, which literally means day. This same (correct) translation of hemera as while was done in Acts 18:18. "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow."

We see it again in Romans 8:36, "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." And in Romans 10:21, "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

This is not all the examples I could give, but I will stop with 2 Corinthians 6:2, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"

So there is absolutely zero question that scripture often uses the word day figuratively for a period of time.

But it is not only the word day, but also the phrase the last day that is used in this way. The full proof of this can be seen by comparing the words of Jesus at two different times. In John 6, Jesus said three times over that He would raise up the redeemed "at the last day."

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day... 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


But in John 12:48 He just as explicitly said that the judgment of the wicked would take place "in the last day."
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But Revelation 20 explicitly says these two events take place at least a thousand years apart.

So it is exceedingly clear that in scripture the phrase "the last day" refers to the end times, not to a single 24 hour period of time.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[zeke37]

James, you dissapoint me.

when "last" is mentioned and "day" is mentioned
there is no extra formula...

the last day.

not the last days...but the last day.

this is your weakest argument yet

 

[PeterAV]

There goes Biblewriter headlong to man instead of the word.
You NEVER go to man,[Strong was not saved] but to God and his word to understand what the word says.
Allow the Bible to back up the Bible.
No matter how educated man is, it is only his oppinion and nothing else. Man is NEVER the final authority.
When will people ever learn this.
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Some think it is up for debate.

 

[Biblewriter]

There goes Biblewriter headlong to man instead of the word.
You NEVER go to man,[Strong was not saved] but to God and his word to understand what the word says.
Allow the Bible to back up the Bible.
No matter how educated man is, it is only his oppinion and nothing else. Man is NEVER the final authority.
When will people ever learn this.
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Some think it is up for debate.

Yes, every word of God is pure. But that word was not given in our language, it was given in Greek and Hebrew.

I appealed to a scholar's word as to the English meaning of a Greek word, but I also clearly demonstrated from the scriptures alone that they use both the single word "day" and the phrase "the last day" in a figurative sense for a period of time.

Did you even bother to read the scriptures I posted?

 

[Biblewriter]

James, you dissapoint me.

when "last" is mentioned and "day" is mentioned
there is no extra formula...

the last day.

not the last days...but the last day.

this is your weakest argument yet

If this argument is weak, explain how both the resurrection of the just and the judgment of the wicked are stated to occur at or in "the last day," yet we are explicitly told that these two events take place at least a thousand years apart.

 

[cimbk]

It is so sad to see so many of God's people becoming deceived about the resurrection which is clearly at the last day.
Biblical proof?
Easy!
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how clear that is? Absolutely obvious. But let us do it with two or three witnesses to make sure this biblical principle is established in the Bible as absolute proof.
*******
Why looky here, Jesus knew there would be a huge doubting populace in the church so he repeats it right away so one has absolutely NO EXCUSE.
*******
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that?
The Bible compliments the Bible and exposes the words of man.
According to scriptures, the resurrection happens on the last day, not seven years before.
But let us continue to be obedient to the Bible and look for two or more witnesses.
*******
Well, why looky here!
Some wonderful truths here in the word of God.
Look at this! Yet another 100% backup of scripture.
*******
John 6:44
No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how scripture is absolutely plain and stops all private interpretation?
When you read a book, to understand it, you need to understand the author's terms and definitions. You don't stick your own limited understandings into it, but look at what the author continues to say about it.
*******
But just in case there are those that are yet not believing the word of God as the final authority, I have more proof straight from God's own word.
*******
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my fleash, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that? Scripture backs up scripture to make certain that you CAN know the absolute truth about the resurrection. But the word of God is very fine and has even more proof.
*******
Here is yet another scripture doing what is expected...scripture backing up scripture so that we are without excuse. Get it? Well here it is..
*******
John 11:24
Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
*******

Just how many times does God have to repeat himself before it sinks in our rebellious heads and hearts!?
It is so clear that the resurrection is at the LAST DAY. There is no wiggle room.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

I'm SOLD! Its the LAST DAY!

 

[cimbk]

The Greek word translated day in the expression "the last day" is hemera (word number 2250 in Strong's Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows:

"Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἡμαι he-mai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):—age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years."

The figurative use of this word as a period of time is found in Luke 6:22-23. "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

When they were hated, and separated from the company of the others, and reproached, and villified as evil, then they should rejoice. And the time when they should so rejoice is called "that day."

We see this again in John 8:56, where Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Jesus' day went all the way back to the time of Abraham.

We see it again in John 16:23-27, where Jesus called all the time after his resurrection "that day." "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

We see it again in Acts 8:1, where we read, "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." A persecution that only lasted one day would not scatter the entire church except for the Apostles. Yet the Greek word translated time in this sentence is this same Greek word hemera which literally means day.

We see this again in Acts 15:7, where peter said, "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." The Greek word translated while in this sentence is this same hemera, which literally means day. This same (correct) translation of hemera as while was done in Acts 18:18. "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow."

We see it again in Romans 8:36, "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." And in Romans 10:21, "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

This is not all the examples I could give, but I will stop with 2 Corinthians 6:2, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"

So there is absolutely zero question that scripture often uses the word day figuratively for a period of time.

But it is not only the word day, but also the phrase the last day that is used in this way. The full proof of this can be seen by comparing the words of Jesus at two different times. In John 6, Jesus said three times over that He would raise up the redeemed "at the last day."

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day... 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


But in John 12:48 He just as explicitly said that the judgment of the wicked would take place "in the last day."
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But Revelation 20 explicitly says these two events take place at least a thousand years apart.

So it is exceedingly clear that in scripture the phrase "the last day" refers to the end times, not to a single 24 hour period of time.

WIGGLE>>>WIGGLE>>>WIGGLE

 

[Choose Wisely]

I'm SOLD! Its the LAST DAY!

Me too

Fortunately, we understand that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

Therefore, I think we can safely conclude that the last day is referring to the last 1000 year period.

 

[Choose Wisely]

It is so sad to see so many of God's people becoming deceived about the resurrection which is clearly at the last day.
Biblical proof?
Easy!
John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how clear that is? Absolutely obvious. But let us do it with two or three witnesses to make sure this biblical principle is established in the Bible as absolute proof.
*******
Why looky here, Jesus knew there would be a huge doubting populace in the church so he repeats it right away so one has absolutely NO EXCUSE.
*******
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that?
The Bible compliments the Bible and exposes the words of man.
According to scriptures, the resurrection happens on the last day, not seven years before.
But let us continue to be obedient to the Bible and look for two or more witnesses.
*******
Well, why looky here!
Some wonderful truths here in the word of God.
Look at this! Yet another 100% backup of scripture.
*******
John 6:44
No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See how scripture is absolutely plain and stops all private interpretation?
When you read a book, to understand it, you need to understand the author's terms and definitions. You don't stick your own limited understandings into it, but look at what the author continues to say about it.
*******
But just in case there are those that are yet not believing the word of God as the final authority, I have more proof straight from God's own word.
*******
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my fleash, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
*******
See that? Scripture backs up scripture to make certain that you CAN know the absolute truth about the resurrection. But the word of God is very fine and has even more proof.
*******
Here is yet another scripture doing what is expected...scripture backing up scripture so that we are without excuse. Get it? Well here it is..
*******
John 11:24
Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.
*******

Just how many times does God have to repeat himself before it sinks in our rebellious heads and hearts!?
It is so clear that the resurrection is at the LAST DAY. There is no wiggle room.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Maybe you should study up on fig trees.

 

[josephearl]

Great posts. I have often pondered this question and have never heard James take on it. If the last day is the day the dead in Christ are raised and then we who are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air I think it is also posible to have other scenarios about John 12:48 to consider.
1.Since they were not raised up to meet the Lord in the air it was their last day for all who knew them and had a hope they might be redeemed.
2. The time difference between the rapture and the great white throne judgment is irrelevant. Since Jesus is refering to a last day for the living in some verses and a last day for the dead in others the context of each use establish's which 'last day' is correct in the sentence being read. This seems most reasonable to me as of now...

 

[Choose Wisely]

Great posts. I have often pondered this question and have never heard James take on it. If the last day is the day the dead in Christ are raised and then we who are alive and remain meet the Lord in the air I think it is also posible to have other scenarios about John 12:48 to consider.
1.Since they were not raised up to meet the Lord in the air it was their last day for all who knew them and had a hope they might be redeemed.
2. The time difference between the rapture and the great white throne judgment is irrelevant. Since Jesus is refering to a last day for the living in some verses and a last day for the dead in others the context of each use establish's which 'last day' is correct in the sentence being read. This seems most reasonable to me as of now...

You just had to say it didn't you. There's more than one last day.

Now when you understand that there is more than two last days you will be getting somewhere.

You might look at the fig tree.

 

[zeke37]

you might want to give your explanaition of the fig tree,
so we don't all have to guess.

if you truly want to help the Bretheren,
then you won't play games,
and instead, just tell us all of your "understanding"

because you've been saying it for some time now,
and i have yet to hear you explain your theory about the fig tree.

no games...just say what you think you know, and we shall all judge it individually.
thanks

 

[zeke37]

If this argument is weak, explain how both the resurrection of the just and the judgment of the wicked are stated to occur at or in "the last day," yet we are explicitly told that these two events take place at least a thousand years apart.

it's explicite James...the "last" day.
not the last day of the festival or of the year or what ever...
no qualifyer for it to mean anything else but the very last day.

the last day IMO is as a thousand years.....2Pet3
the Millennium.....Rev20
the Day of the Lord.....1Cor5

the dead in Christ are raised at it's beginning, the wicked at it's end.

the day of the Lord cannot be "pre" trib....
the day of the Lord cannot be the trib itself.

and the trib cannot be the wrath of God.
Rev18 (Babylon must fall first, before the plagues come)

 

[cimbk]

you might want to give your explanaition of the fig tree,
so we don't all have to guess.

if you truly want to help the Bretheren,
then you won't play games,
and instead, just tell us all of your "understanding"

because you've been saying it for some time now,
and i have yet to hear you explain your theory about the fig tree.

no games...just say what you think you know, and we shall all judge it individually.
thanks

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!......not the fig tree AGAIN!....AHHHHH!

 

[josephearl]

Well my last day and your last day would be ( more then likely) different last days since God will call us home at different times. Thus it is not a stretch, although it might be theologically wrong, to say that a Christians last day and a reference to a heathens last day are indeed different last days. One is the last day for those who step into eternal glory and the other the last day for those who will be cast into the lake of fire. We may be viewing this, and thus arises our misunderstanding if I am correct, from a mindset birthed in this temporal dispensation and Christ was speaking from an eternal perspective.

 

[Choose Wisely]

you might want to give your explanaition of the fig tree,
so we don't all have to guess.

if you truly want to help the Bretheren,
then you won't play games,
and instead, just tell us all of your "understanding"

because you've been saying it for some time now,
and i have yet to hear you explain your theory about the fig tree.

no games...just say what you think you know, and we shall all judge it individually.
thanks

Yes, I've been saying that for some time now. And yet you know nothing more about fig trees than when I first said it.

It is my understanding that it is he who seeks that finds.

 

[zeke37]

Well my last day and your last day would be ( more then likely) different last days since God will call us home at different times. Thus it is not a stretch, although it might be theologically wrong, to say that a Christians last day and a reference to a heathens last day are indeed different last days. One is the last day for those who step into eternal glory and the other the last day for those who will be cast into the lake of fire. We may be viewing this, and thus arises our misunderstanding if I am correct, from a mindset birthed in this temporal dispensation and Christ was speaking from an eternal perspective.

hi
the last day is not individual.
it cannot be,
at least in regards to the resurrection.

the term resurrection, or, the raising of the dead,
is not so folks can exist in heaven. no no no.
it is so the dead folks can once again live here on earth.

the dead already exist in heaven today

they are raised here, on the last day

and for the dead in Christ,
that raising occurs at the beginning of the last day
which is at His Coming

when our God brings the dead in Christ with Him FROM heaven
and raises them here.

and then after they are raised,
we who are alive and remain
are then changed (caught up in the spirit)
and gathered together with them
in a great cloud of witnesses(1Thes4)
right here on earth(Zec14)

for the rest or the dead,
that happens at the end of that day. Rev20
i believe that day (the Day of the Lord) is a thousand years long (Millennium)

 

[zeke37]

Yes, I've been saying that for some time now. And yet you know nothing more about fig trees than when I first said it.

It is my understanding that it is he who seeks that finds.

so, enlighten me then, instead of playing games.
i mean, if i have it wrong, then edify me.
why wouldn't you want that?