The Pre-Tribulation Myth

[vinsight4u]

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[zeke37]

Actually, they are.

Jews include all twelve tribes of Israel, as was shown from the scriptures in the last part of post #37, and in the last part of post #50.

Jews do not include all twelve tribes, but by possible geographic location.
ie, you can be an American living in Canada, but your still an American.

But note that Romans 9:6-24 explicitly states that people being the true "Israel" isn't based on them being the natural (i.e. the flesh/genetic) seed.

IMO the 144000 are literal descendants of ancient Israel,
not just ancient Judah, nor grafted in folks.
they are sealed before the 4 winds blow the trib.
IMO the gentile portion of Israel is called out of babylon after she falls yet before the plagues come.
Rev18

It could be. And even if won't be, the basic principle remains that if even those who are strangers in Israel can be considered to be members of the various tribes of Israel to the point where they can even inherit the land of the various tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are no more strangers to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), are considered by God to be grafted into the various tribes of Israel when they're grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

not into various tribes tho....
into the whole...but not to the tribe of such and such

Ezekiel chapters 40-48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen (like those in Revelation must happen: Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus Christ on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

it has to be future because that temple is not built yet...and the dimensions are different than that of the first two temples.

as for the animal sacrifices, i don't believe that they are literal to the Millennium.
i think they are symbolic, as most prophesy is.
since Jesus replaced any blood sacrifices, God won't reinstate it.

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns, he will still build a New Covenant temple building in Jerusalem before which New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13).

no way you could convince me of that.
the NT strictly forbids such actions.
therefore, if the NT says no more animal sacrifices, because Jesus was the one and only all time sacrifical lamb
and the OT prophet says that God did not want your animal sacrifices to begin with,
and the NT says all things lead to Jesus...
well, you get what i am saying
Ezekiel's Millennial temple's sacrifices must be symbolic, and fulfilled in Christ.

Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build the temple and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40-48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

all blood ordinances were done away with.
God will not reinstate them
it's gotta be symbolic

plus, all flesh is changed to spirit at His Coming.
animals too.

Actually, believing Gentiles are grafted into the 12 tribes, as was shown from the scriptures in the first part of post #50.

not into individual tribes tho...but by geography
only into the whole.

you might convert to judaism today, but you can't convert to Naphtaliism

Also, as was pointed out in the 144,000 part of post #26, the tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8), because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17), but rather spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

actually, there are 14 tribes mentioned in the bible.
2 are omitted from Rev7.

Also, regarding the reference to Revelation 21:9b,12b:

the bride is the elect, no matter where they are from.
Israel or gentile.
the word Israel means something too.

Where what?

If you mean where does it say the New Covenant is made only with Israel, the references were given:

yet Jer 31 does not say what you infer

It's free. Why don't you accept it?

because it's a guess...
or assumption...

or revelation, but you honestly don't know which,
so even if you attempt to sell it as an answer from God
it is still just a guess.

How does that contradict the fact that Gentile believers can know what tribe they've been grafted into?

because i don't think they can but for archeology

Based on what evidence?

archeology, E Raymond Capp.

it kinda makes sense too, that God would use His own, to punnish Judah.

Are you referring to the idea of the tribes of Israel being countries or geographical regions?

both....and individual too.

If so, the tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions, but consist of individuals, who can be living in any country or region.

they used to be a long time ago...now they are not.
we are individual in that regard.

Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another.

that is what you infer when you say that the northern tribes moved into Judah and were called Jews.

that would be only by geography.
the place that you dwell is irrelevant.

If by Revelation 14, you mean the 144,000, they can include both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers, as was shown from the scriptures in the 144,000 part of post #26.

well, i believe that they are genetic because they are sealed before the 4 winds blow
and the ones in Rev18 are not.

Revelation 18:4 can include both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers.

doubt it, as i gave my reasons already

Why not at all?

IMo they are scattered to the 4 winds...part of "heavenly Jerusalem"
Christians, not antiChristian jews

By descendants did you mean ancestors?

yes, thank-you

And doesn't "most" mean that some weren't?

yep

So can't some of the 144,000 have grown up in Israel, being born to people whose ancestors never left Israel?

nope...all left.
the land was barren for centuries...millennia even.

Also, can't some of the 144,000 be living in Israel now because they moved there, after they and their ancestors were born and/or raised somewhere else?

Yes indeed.

 

[johnthewitness]

I agree its a myth.
Luke 9:24
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[johnthewitness]

It is these who have not defiled themselves with women (churches), for they are virgins (spiritually pure). It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, (Revelation 14:4)

This seems to imply that the churches will be deceived or corrupt in the End Times. What do almost all megachurches and televangelists promote? The pretribulation rapture!

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

[zeke37]

preach it loud Bro

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #62 :

Jews do not include all twelve tribes, but by possible geographic location.
ie, you can be an American living in Canada, but your still an American.

That's not the best analogy for what was shown from the scriptures in the last part of post #37, and in the last part of post #50. Instead, a better analogy would be, for example: people born in different countries in Europe (people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times) can immigrate to America and become Americans (i.e., in the sense of becoming naturalized citizens of America) without changing their genetic identities (i.e. they will still be genetically English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Greek, etc.); and only the original inhabitants of America (i.e. the American Indians) can be said to be genetic Americans.

In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah; the European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah; all Americans (including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America) represent all "Jews"; and the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah.

zeke37 said in post #62:

plus, all flesh is changed to spirit at His Coming.

Actually, that's not the case, just as the Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but was resurrected in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb was empty (Matthew 28:6) and why he still had the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for Jesus remains our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he will remain our fully-human high priest forever (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like we're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Beware the Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh, for it's an antichrist deception (2 John 1:7). The Gnostics mistakenly think that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God himself as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

We know that Adam and Eve were flesh because they were the progenitors of the human race alive today, and we know that Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell into sin because it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. So the future resurrection and changing of the saved into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will simply be God allowing all of saved humanity to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also beware the more-general Gnostic lie that the created, physical universe is evil in itself and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good, for this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH as some sort of evil, tyrant god, who Gnosticism says created the physical universe only as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, who Gnosticism says by some accident fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped within physical bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that the physical world was originally created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14) and that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8).

And on the new earth all of saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved humans, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. All of saved humanity will be able to live in an earthly paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and all their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

zeke37 said in post #62:

So can't some of the 144,000 have grown up in Israel, being born to people whose ancestors never left Israel?

nope...all left.
the land was barren for centuries...millennia even.

What ancient source do you base this idea on?

 

[zeke37]

Actually, that's not the case, just as the Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but was resurrected in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why his tomb was empty (Matthew 28:6) and why he still had the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29).

yes. i am not disputing any of that at all.

And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for Jesus remains our fully-human mediator (1 Timothy 2:5); he will remain our fully-human high priest forever (Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like we're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

because He wil be recognized as Jesus who they pierced,
doesn't mean that He will still be flesh and blood.

and of course there's this too...

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
​

We know that Adam and Eve were flesh because they were the progenitors of the human race alive today, and we know that Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell into sin because it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. So the future resurrection and changing of the saved into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will simply be God allowing all of saved humanity to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

i don't think anyone is flesh after the resurrection
because those who are worthy for the resurrection,
are to be like the angels......

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
​

and the angels are not flesh.

no flesh can stand in the presence of the glorified Lord.
so all flesh is converted to "spirit" at the last day

that is why dangerous animals will play with children in Isa. prophesy.
the lamb and the lion will sleep together etc. (example)

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

i am not sure whay you went into the gnostic thing at all.????
i did not answer your quotes about it, because it is not relevant to my belief at all.
i am not a gnostic.

What ancient source do you base this idea on?

1st to 20th century history.
the "jews" did not populate Judah after the Titus destruction in the first century....
not until the 20th century.

 

[franky67]

How do you feel Jeremiah 31:35-37 has been contradicted?



Note that post-trib is the truth, as was shown from the scriptures in the third reply in post #35.



On what scriptures do you base your rejection of post-trib?

Also, when do you believe the rapture will happen (e.g. pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath), and on what scriptures do you base your belief?

It will happen before the 7 years of "hell on earth" starts, call it whatever you want, but the "church" will be taken to be with the Lord just as 1 Thess. describes before all this starts.

Now, here is the glaring hole in the idea that the "church" must exist on earth during that 7 year period, and THEN be taken in rapture.

Because 1 Thess. states in ch 4 verse 17 that there will be a part of the "church" alive on the earth at the time of the rapture, and will be taken to meet the dead in Christ, and Christ Himself in the air.

Alive as they are taken to be with Jesus, got it ?

Now, all through the bible the term "as many as" is used to denote ALL, go to Strongs and look it up, it never suggest anything partial.

Revelation 13:15 makes it very clear that not one person will be left alive at the command of the anti-christ to worship him or his image, not one.

If Christ were to come for any who are "alive and remain" at the end of the 7 year period, He would not find any Live believers in Christ, to take up to be with Him.

 

[zeke37]

It will happen before the 7 years of "hell on earth" starts, call it whatever you want, but the "church" will be taken to be with the Lord just as 1 Thess. describes before all this starts.

1Thes4 shows that the harpazo occurs after the dead in Christ
are brought from heaven and raised here

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

seized/gathered together in the air .... caught up in the spirit .... quickened .... changed
Paul says it happens at "the Coming of the Lord"
then Paul writes to them again, to clear some things up...
some things have to happen before "the Coming of the Lord" and our gathering to Him.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
​

seems strait forward to me...
same author Paul, says the same thing, the Coming of the Lord
in both 1Thes4 and 2Thes2

Rev shows that the time of the dead is after the trib, Rev11
at the Lord's coming (7th trump)
the time of the dead/ raising of the dead, is shown as being on the last day from John 6/11 and Dan 12

Now, here is the glaring hole in the idea that the "church" must exist on earth during that 7 year period, and THEN be taken in rapture.

Because 1 Thess. states in ch 4 verse 17 that there will be a part of the "church" alive on the earth at the time of the rapture, and will be taken to meet the dead in Christ, and Christ Himself in the air.

Alive as they are taken to be with Jesus, got it ?

and? that is the quickening...no hole.
those of us who remain alive unto that day (His Coming)
are changed (caught up in the spirit)
and gathered to Him in the clouds of heaven (dead in Christ)
but only after those clouds of heaven (dead in Christ) are raised here first.
there is no "up" in the manuscripts.
air is a simple synonym for spirit.

we shall not all die but we shall all be changed. 1Cor15.
"caught up in the spirit"

Now, all through the bible the term "as many as" is used to denote ALL, go to Strongs and look it up, it never suggest anything partial.

Revelation 13:15 makes it very clear that not one person will be left alive at the command of the anti-christ to worship him or his image, not one.

not really. there is a condition.
who is or is not in the Lamb's book of life

and it is only a threat..."should be" not "would be".

plus we know it is not everyone,
because the 144000 who are sealed do not worship him

plus, in Rev18, God's people are called out of Babylon even after she falls, yet before the plagues (wrath) come

plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship

If Christ were to come for any who are "alive and remain" at the end of the 7 year period, He would not find any Live believers in Christ, to take up to be with Him.

there is no "up" in 1Thes4:17 in the original manuscripts...simply "seized"

pre trib is soooooo bad.

 

[franky67]

Just got time for the most obvious errors this time


plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20
These are beheaded, then came to life and reigned with Christ Rev. 20:4
They were killed on earth.,, heads cut off, like dead.

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship, You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

Post Tribulation will not fly.

And yes it is UP, cause vapor clouds are in the UP direction.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

Post Tribulation will not fly.

Be glad to.

When
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall , and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken . 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
What? Gathering His elect from the earth?
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
When all else fails look to our King.

 

[zeke37]

Just got time for the most obvious errors this time


plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20
These are beheaded, then came to life and reigned with Christ Rev. 20:4
They were killed on earth.,, heads cut off, like dead.

i guess you missed it.
the beheaded ones were of the past. like John the baptist
that is why beheadings are mentioned at all.
the beheaded ones are not beheaded during the trib.
the martyrs, like the 5th seal.

the ones of the trib, are not killed, but are to be gathered after.

so in Rev20:4 we have the firstfruits...
the dead marytrs for Christ
and
the ones that do not take the mark and are gathered to Christ at His coming

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship, You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

i JUST gave them to you Bro.

plus we know it is not everyone,
because the 144000 who are sealed do not worship him
​

do you think the 144000 worship the beast?

plus, in Rev18, God's people are called out of Babylon
even after she falls, yet before the plagues (wrath) come
​

Can God's people worship the beast and be called out of Babylon?

plus we learn of those that did not worship the beast in Rev20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
​

the 'pink" are the dead in Christ, martyred, beheaded etc.
the "purple" are the ones that go through the trib and do not worship Him.
they are the ones that are raptured in 1Thes4, post trib of course.

so obviously not everyone will be killed that does not worship the beast.
to say so is plain bad scholarship
​

plus the poster above me just told us of another one, in Mar13

Post Tribulation will not fly.

thankfully we do not "fly" as pre tribbers believe.
see Ez13.

And yes it is UP, cause vapor clouds are in the UP direction.

no "up" mentioned in the manuscripts.
plus, the "clouds" are not rain clouds or atmospheric clouds.
they are "the clouds of heaven"...

behold, He cometh with Clouds.

Paul teaches what "clouds" can mean in Heb12:1
a mass multitude.

air is a synonym for spirit.
Paul says, caught up in the spirit, other places..

air filled tires are called what? pneumatic...pneuma is spirit.

and since every eye shall see Him, those clouds do not "cover His Glory" as the clouds of the OT did.

those of us who are alive and remain unto His Coming,
shall be caught up in the spirit, (seized to Him and changed into spirit)
and gathered together with the already returned and raised, dead in Christ

and it happens on the last day

 

[Choose Wisely]

Bible2;59765345]

How do you feel they've been proven wrong?

The tribulation is over in Rev 6 as Matt 24 proves. Your stringing along the sun moon and stars event is simply incorrect as Rev 6 proves.

On what do you base your idea of this being pre-trib instead of post-trib?

Because it occurs at the trump of God and not the last trump.

Regarding the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9), note that it hasn't yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't occur until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

The tribulation is OVER IN Rev 6.......just like it says in Matt 24. I can't make it any clearer than the scripture makes it. Why can't you just read what it says.

Also, with regard to the marriage itself, note that the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation

This is not the second coming, it is a rapture. The second coming occurs after the marriage supper JUST LIKE REV 19 SAYS. I can't make it any clearer than the scripture says. I'm not sure why you just can't read what it says............................THE SECOND COMING IS AFTER THE MARRIAGE SUPPER..............REV 19.

(Matthew 24:29-31). Revelation 19:7 likewise shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until Revelation 19, which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

AGAIN.........The tribulation is over in Rev 6 as witnessed in Rev 6 and Matt 24.






-

Regarding a pre-wrath rapture (as opposed to post-trib), note that no scripture teaches or requires one.

The fact you do not understand the scriptures does not mean there are not plenty of scriptures that show a pretib rapture.

Some people feel that the seventh trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15-19), which will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, must be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. But the "last trump" won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31), which doesn't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Until you understand that the tribulation is OVER in Rev 6 you are just lost. The 7th seal begins the wrath of God. Both raptures...pre trib and pre wrath have occurred by then. They are the multitude in Rev 7.

 

[Bible2]

franky67 said in post #71:

You just find me a verse that describes one who refused the mark walking around on earth alive. Can't be done.

There will be Christians who will be in God-protected wilderness places on the earth during the time of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 12:6,14-16). They are those who will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at the second coming of Jesus to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, there will be some unsaved elect Jews who will refuse to receive the mark, and so they will be able to be saved by Jesus when they see him in person at his second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). Anyone who receives the mark can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11).

---

franky67 said in post #69:

It will happen before the 7 years of "hell on earth" starts, call it whatever you want, but the "church" will be taken to be with the Lord just as 1 Thess. describes before all this starts.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 won't happen until after the tribulation, as was shown from the scriptures in the 3rd part of post #35.

---

franky67 said in post #69:

Revelation 13:15 makes it very clear that not one person will be left alive at the command of the anti-christ to worship him or his image, not one.

Revelation 13:15 means as many as the Antichrist's forces can get their hands on. For they won't be able to get their hands on every obedient Christian (Revelation 12:6,14-16), or on every unsaved elect Jew (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14).

-

franky67 said in post #69:

Now, all through the bible the term "as many as" is used to denote ALL, go to Strongs and look it up, it never suggest anything partial.

Note that the Greek word is used in Mark 3:28 despite there being an exception (Mark 3:29).

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

The tribulation is over in Rev 6 as Matt 24 proves.

Note that Matthew 24 doesn't say or require that the tribulation will be over in Revelation 6.

Instead, Revelation 6 will be only the first stage of the tribulation, as was shown from the scriptures in post #36 and post #27.

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

Your stringing along the sun moon and stars event is simply incorrect as Rev 6 proves.

Actually, Revelation 6 doesn't require that what was presented from the scriptures in post #36 is incorrect (also see the sixth seal part of post #27).

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

Because it occurs at the trump of God and not the last trump.

The trump of God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at the second coming of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the same as the last trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7-20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the same as the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

This is not the second coming, it is a rapture.

The rapture will occur only at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

The second coming occurs after the marriage supper JUST LIKE REV 19 SAYS.

Note that Revelation 19 doesn't say that.

Instead, the marriage supper will occur after the second coming, as was shown from the scriptures in the "marriage supper" part of post #60.

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

The fact you do not understand the scriptures does not mean there are not plenty of scriptures that show a pretib rapture.

How do you feel that a misunderstanding of the scriptures has been proven from the scriptures? I.e., how has it been proven that any scripture teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture?

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

The 7th seal begins the wrath of God.

Note that no scripture requires that. See post #27, beginning at the "seventh seal".

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

Both raptures...pre trib and pre wrath have occurred by then.

Note that no scripture teaches or requires either a pre-trib or a pre-wrath (as opposed to a second coming) rapture.

Choose Wisely said in post #74:

They are the multitude in Rev 7.

The great multitude in Revelation 7:9-14 got into heaven by dying, as was shown from the scriptures in the "great multitude" part of post #44.

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #68:

because He wil be recognized as Jesus who they pierced,
doesn't mean that He will still be flesh and blood.

When Jesus returns, he will still be in flesh and blood, for he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Also, see again the entire 2nd part of post #67.

zeke37 said in post #68:

and of course there's this too...

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus and the immortally-resurrected church will inherit the millennial kingdom and the subsequent new earth kingdom in fleshly bodies, for the church will be resurrected/changed into immortal flesh bodies at Jesus' second coming just as Jesus was resurrected into an immortal flesh body at his first coming (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Also, the elect Jews who won't become believers until the second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could miss the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal flesh bodies (which may be experienced only by those who had become believers before the second coming), and so they could inherit the millennial kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal flesh bodies.

So in 1 Corinthians 15:50, Paul must be referring only to people in mortal flesh bodies (as opposed to immortal flesh bodies) not inheriting the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1-4), after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-21:4).

zeke37 said in post #68:

i don't think anyone is flesh after the resurrection
because those who are worthy for the resurrection,
are to be like the angels......
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

and the angels are not flesh.

Matthew 22:30 can simply mean that resurrected humans won't marry, like angels don't marry; it doesn't require that resurrected humans won't be immortal flesh. For, again, the church will be resurrected/changed into immortal flesh bodies at Jesus' second coming just as Jesus was resurrected into an immortal flesh body at his first coming (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

zeke37 said in post #68:

no flesh can stand in the presence of the glorified Lord.

What verse are you thinking of here?

And what about the transfiguration (Matthew 17)?

zeke37 said in post #68:

so all flesh is converted to "spirit" at the last day

What verse are you thinking of here?

zeke37 said in post #68:

that is why dangerous animals will play with children in Isa. prophesy.
the lamb and the lion will sleep together etc. (example)

How does that require that they won't be flesh?

And what about the Garden of Eden before the Fall (Genesis 2:19), and all animals being vegetarian at the time of Genesis 1:30?

zeke37 said in post #68:

i am not a gnostic.

It's a Gnostic (and antichrist) idea to deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

zeke37 said in post #68:

the "jews" did not populate Judah after the Titus destruction in the first century....
not until the 20th century.

Can you quote the specific ancient historical sources on which you're basing this idea?

 

[zeke37]

When Jesus returns, he will still be in flesh and blood, for he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Also, see again the entire 2nd part of post #67.

just because He will be recognizred as He Who they pierced,
does not mean He will be flesh and blood
for we already know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 1Cor15.
we also know that the description of the Glorified Jesus, given in Revelation,
is not that of flesh and blood, regardless if there are holes in His body.

Jesus and the immortally-resurrected church will inherit the millennial kingdom and the subsequent new earth kingdom in fleshly bodies, for the church will be resurrected/changed into immortal flesh bodies at Jesus' second coming just as Jesus was resurrected into an immortal flesh body at his first coming (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

i disagree with your interpretation. All flesh is changed...quickened.

Also, the elect Jews who won't become believers until the second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could miss the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal flesh bodies (which may be experienced only by those who had become believers before the second coming), and so they could inherit the millennial kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal flesh bodies.

nothing required flesh and blood to inherit the Kingdom,
infact the opposite is stated in 1Cor15.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
vv
v
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

changed from the earthly flesh and blood body, into the heavenly spiritual body
flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom,
so your beliefs about flesh beings here after the 2nd Coming, inheriting the Kingdom
is false.
since 'somebody" does inherit the Kingdom, they have to be non flesh and blood to do so.

Matthew 22:30 can simply mean that resurrected humans won't marry, like angels don't marry; it doesn't require that resurrected humans won't be immortal flesh. For, again, the church will be resurrected/changed into immortal flesh bodies at Jesus' second coming just as Jesus was resurrected into an immortal flesh body at his first coming (Luke 24:39, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Jesus was not yet Glorified while they saw Him on earth after His Resurrection
When He comes the 2nd time, He will be Glorified.

What verse are you thinking of here?

those in 1Cor15, and OT facts about God's Glory.

And what about the transfiguration (Matthew 17)?

what about it?
He was not Glorified then, even if He was "different".

What verse are you thinking of here?

1Cor15's mystery change from flesh and blood to heavenly spirit.
John6/11's last day resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Thes4's harpazo occuring only after the dead in Christ are raised.

How does that require that they won't be flesh?

what do you think happens when a lion meets up with a lamb or what a rattlesnake would do to a child in the flesh?
ouch.

And what about the Garden of Eden before the Fall (Genesis 2:19), and all animals being vegetarian at the time of Genesis 1:30?

a...that is all speculation
b...what about it ?

It's a Gnostic (and antichrist) idea to deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

ya, and? do you think i implied that?

that has nothing to do with when He comes back.
He won't be flesh when He comes back.

Can you quote the specific ancient historical sources on which you're basing this idea?

that's pretty common knowledge.
I suggest you look into the formation of Israel in 1948.
there was a great movie made about it staring Paul Newman, called Exodus.

it wasn't until after the WW2 that the Holy land started to be populated
with those European Jews who were the descendants of those dispersed from Israel/Judah in the first century

Europe had no place for them, even in Britain...even after hitler was defeated.



a simple google search should suffice.

 

[franky67]

bible 2 said

Revelation 13:15 means as many as the Antichrist's forces can get their hands on. For they won't be able to get their hands on every obedient Christian (Revelation 12:6,14-16), or on every unsaved elect Jew (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14).

You can't rewrite the bible, it does not say "as many as they can catch", it says very plainly "as many as do not worship the image of the beast will be killed" and the remaining verses go on to make it clear that without the mark, no one can buy, or sell. think this means food ?

In Chapter 12, the woman who fled into the wilderness is, guess who ? the nation who gave birth to a son, who would rule the nations with a rod of iron, guess who? Not the ones who refuse the mark.

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #78:

for we already know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 1Cor15.

That was addressed in the 2nd part of post #77.

---

zeke37 said in post #78:

we also know that the description of the Glorified Jesus, given in Revelation,
is not that of flesh and blood . . .

Note that Revelation 1:14–18 doesn't contradict what was shown from the scriptures in the 2nd part of post #67.

All Revelation 1:14–18 shows is that, while the resurrected Jesus remains in immortal human flesh (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 7:24-26), his appearance has become more glorified since immediately after his resurrection into immortal human flesh (Luke 24:39, John 20:25-29, cf. the second coming verses of Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

At his second coming, saved humans will be resurrected or changed into immortal human flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25).

---

zeke37 said in post #78:

changed from the earthly flesh and blood body, into the heavenly spiritual body

The glorious heavenly, or "celestial", bodies referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:40 are objects like the literal sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:41, which are gloriously bright physical objects which reside in the second "heaven" of outer space (Deuteronomy 4:19, cf. Daniel 12:3, 1 Corinthians 15:49b).

The "spiritual" resurrection body in 1 Corinthians 15:44-49 is still a human flesh body, but it's no longer a "natural" (i.e. mortal) human flesh body (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). It's a supernatural, immortal human flesh resurrection body, like the divine Jesus' supernatural, immortal human flesh resurrection body which was raised from being a mortal human flesh body into being an immortal human flesh body (Luke 24:39, John 20:25-29, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and will remain an immortal human flesh body forever (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 7:24-26, Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14) by the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit himself (Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 15:44, Romans 1:4, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:19-25).

---

zeke37 said in post #78:

John6/11's last day resurrection of the dead in Christ.
1Thes4's harpazo occuring only after the dead in Christ are raised.

Note that neither passage says or requires that resurrected and harpazo'd people will no longer be flesh.

---

zeke37 said in post #78:

what do you think happens when a lion meets up with a lamb or what a rattlesnake would do to a child in the flesh?

Note that Isaiah 11:6-8 doesn't require that the animals or the humans won't be flesh, only that they will be vegetarian (Isaiah 11:7b,11a), just as they were both flesh and vegetarian in the Garden of Eden before the Fall (Genesis 2:19), and at the earlier time of Genesis 1:30.

---

zeke37 said in post #78:

it wasn't until after the WW2 that the Holy land started to be populated
with those European Jews who were the descendants of those dispersed from Israel/Judah in the first century

Can you quote the specific ancient historical sources (they won't be found via any Google search) on which you base your earlier idea at the end of post #68 that no Jews whatsoever, until the 20th century, populated Judah after Titus destroyed Jerusalem in the first century AD?