The Pre-Tribulation Myth

[Choose Wisely]

Bible2;59737686]

Regarding Israel, the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). For all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Israel is Israel and the church is the church........just like it says.

Regarding the elect, the church is the elect (Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2).

Plenty of verses in the ot showing the elect is Israel.

Actually, Revelation 14 does refer to the church, for it refers to believers, and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Revelation 14 shows that the 144,000 who will be in heaven during the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 14:1-11) will be believers, for only believers follow the Lamb Jesus, are redeemed, and can be without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:4-5). And Revelation 14 shows that the saints who will be on the earth during the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 14:12-13) will be believers, for only believers have the faith of Jesus and can die in the Lord (Revelation 14:12-13).

The church will be in heaven before Rev 14

Matthew 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37b,42b,44b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation

This is the pre wrath rapture and not the second coming. The second coming does not occur until Rev 19. The pre wrath rapture occurs in Rev 7 ....great multitude and Rev 14.......The harvest to the clouds.

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future some men will know the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens.

They are not referring to the second coming, they are referring to the Day of the Lord.

Compare the following two verses:

"...of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36).
"...the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11).

If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus' second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13); he can guide believers into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of Jesus' second coming before it happens. For, again, Jesus suggests that it's possible for believers to know when his second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a, cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of Jesus' second coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15; Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The is a difference between the coming in the clouds in the pre trib rapture.......the coming in the clouds in the pre wrath rapture......the Day of the Lord........and the second coming when he sets his foot on the mount of Olives.

Indeed, Jews include individuals from all twelve of the tribes of Israel. For there are no lost tribes of Israel, insofar as the ten northern tribes of Israel weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the ten northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history, because some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it had first become idolatrous, some individuals from all ten of the northern tribes of Israel had left the northern kingdom of Israel to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews.

Please explain this to Zeke. He has such a problem with this.

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #38:

i am curious as to how you would even know that?
i am not saying you are wrong...but how did ou come to that conclusion?

By praying and asking God.

As was said in post #26, a genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

. . . the Tribulation is over in Rev 6

Note that the tribulation won't be over in Revelation 6, as was shown from the scriptures in post #27 and post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

It's all over the place. You are just unaware of it.

Note that no scripture teaches or requires a pre-trib rapture.

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

Better be watching and waiting.

...for the second coming, as was shown from the scriptures in the "watch" part of post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

Otherwise you might receive strong delusion and believe the lie.

The strong delusion was addressed near the end of post #35.

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

This world wide time of testing has not occurred yet, but it will occur when no man can buy or sell....save he that hath the mark of the beast.

Actually, the (Roman) "world"-wide time of testing in Revelation 3:10 has occurred (just as, for example, the Roman "world"-wide taxing in Luke 2:1 has occurred), as was shown in detail in post #35.

Regarding the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2), it will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to humans, because otherwise they couldn't tell whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads, and probably by scarification. For one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the name of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) "or" the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hands (probably on the palms) of people "or" on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the mark of the Antichrist won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the mark of the Antichrist or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), while those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, they will subsequently be resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the church) at Jesus Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus himself in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

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In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palms, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have the initials of their loved ones placed by scarification on their palms (cf. also Isaiah 49:16). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their foreheads, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the foreheads of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's Christ/God, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is Christ/God: 1 John 2:22).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hands or foreheads, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hands or foreheads. The gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18). But because some people could refuse to have this number placed on their bodies, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", "WWW", "VVV", "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", and it's transliterated into English either as a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" also has a numerical value of 6, in English gematria.

In a curious coincidence, "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb with which the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will burn up the cities of the world near the end of the coming tribulation (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has already been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has already been placed across many UPC codes on products, are harbingers of when Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2c, cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist's placing of his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's own, personal name (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses currently having "WWW", nor by some products currently having "|| || ||", because Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people themselves will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hands or their foreheads.

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Those assigned to have the mark placed on their foreheads (instead of on their right hands) (Revelation 13:16) could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17) on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

No, the antichrist lie has been around since the tower of Babel. You might study up on most other religions. Find out who Tammuz, Horus, Thor, Bacchus etc, etc, etc is.

How do you feel they fulfill the antichrist lie?

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

Why do you think it was said that "even now there are many antichrists"?

Because at the time 1 John 2:18 was written, in the first century AD, just as today, any person is an antichrist who denies that Jesus of Nazareth himself is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22), or denies that Christ himself is in the flesh (2 John 1:7).

Choose Wisely said in post #39:

You can be sure there will be a pre tribulation rapture simply by watching TV. Why do you think there are so many shows with aliens. Invasions of the body snatchers. Startreck....beam me up Scotty. The everready bunny getting beamed up into a spaceship. Constant shows getting the world prepared for this disappearance of people. Invasion, Surface, The Event, Lost, Falling Skies, V the list goes on and on. Different dimensions or time travel...portals to other worlds. Ghost Busters, Fringe, Flash Forward, Tera Nova. We could make a list a mile long. The world is being prepared for the pre tribulation rapture. Just use common sense and look around. There will be a pre tribulation rapture.....Satan knows it. Just watch TV.

Note that our doctrine mustn't be based on any TV fiction, but on the scriptures themselves (cf. Acts 17:11), which don't say that anyone will disappear at the rapture, just as they don't say there will be a pre-trib rapture. So any fictional TV shows about mysterious disappearances of people caused by aliens don't have to be some Satanic deception, but, like innumerable other subjects of TV fiction, can simply be entertainment that masses of people find interesting, entertainment which is created and broadcast by companies simply to make money.

Also, it should be pointed out that since there won't be a pre-trib rapture, Satan would love for people to think instead that God himself (instead of aliens) has promised that there will be one, so that when it doesn't happen, people could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to, or that God has cruelly broken his promise, so that Satan can get Christians to feel like God has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (cf. Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they will curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

No, they are not chronological.

Note that Revelation chapters 6-21 are chronological, as was shown from the scriptures in post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

The 7 trumpets have nothing to do with the tribulation........they are the wrath of God.

What scriptures do you base this idea on?

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

Can you then explain the timing of the 6th Trumpet as compared to the 6th vial?

Yes. They're years apart, as was shown from the scriptures in the "chronological" part of post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

Rev 6:12-13 and Matt 24:29-31 are the same event.

Actually, they aren't, as was shown from the scriptures in post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

Days of Noah..pre trib rapture of the church(includes dead in Christ)
Days of Lot.....Pre wrath rapture of Israel (includes pre flood and old testament saints) All eyes will see the coming of the Lord.........IN THE CLOUDS. This is not the second coming Rev 19.

Note that those ideas were addressed in detail in the "Noah and Lot" part of post #36, and at the start of post #37.

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

The 144000 are not Gentiles and the manchild is Jesus.

Actually, the 144,000 can include Gentiles, as was shown from the scriptures in the 144,000 part of post #26.

And the man child isn't Jesus, as was shown from the scriptures in the man child part of post #36.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

Israel is the woman and we can see the 12 stars are the sons of Jacob and the sun and moon are Josephs mother and father (Jacob)
Genesis 37
9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Regarding Israel, the church is Israel, as was shown from the scriptures at the start of post #37.

Regarding the woman in Revelation 12, she represents the church, as was shown from the scriptures in the "woman" part of post #36.

Regarding Genesis 37:9, it isn't being referred to in Revelation 12:1, because in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob, but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9b,12b). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet, but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the twelve sons of Jacob placed over her, but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom is over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

Noah entered the ark and gathered the animals in one day. Gen 7:13-14

The day mentioned at the start of Genesis 7:13-17 is the "selfsame" day that the flood started (Genesis 7:11-17), contradicting the idea that Noah was sealed in the ark seven days before the flood started.

Also, Genesis 7:13-16 can be referring to the last time Noah and his family entered the ark, for they could have entered it many times before while building it, and then, once it was finished, while stocking it with food, and loading it with animals. Genesis 7:2-10 shows that Noah spent the seven days before the flood gathering all the different animals into the ark, so Genesis 7:11-17 means simply that the entering of all the animals was completed on the same day that the flood started.

Choose Wisely said in post #40:

It does not compare the flood to the second coming of Christ. It compares the flood to the Day of the Lord.

Actually, the analogy in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 does compare the flood to the second coming of Jesus (Luke 17:30, Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30).

Regarding the day of the Lord/day of wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15), it won't begin until the second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 19:15b).

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

Plenty of verses in the ot showing the elect is Israel.

Note that none of them contradict the fact that the church is the elect (Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2), or the fact that the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

The church will be in heaven before Rev 14

Much of it could be, by dying.

For Revelation 7:9-15's great multitude won't enter into heaven by being raptured, but by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8). Just as the souls of the dead martyrs who will be under the altar in heaven at the time of the fifth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:9-11) will enter into heaven by dying by martyrdom sometime before the fifth seal, and just as the souls of the dead martyrs who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the time of the seven last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) will enter into heaven by dying by martyrdom during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13), so the great multitude (Revelation 7:9) who will enter into the tribulation and then will come out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) and all be in heaven (Revelation 7:15) by the time of Revelation 7:9-15 (which will be shortly after Revelation 6:9-11, but years before Revelation 15:2) will enter into heaven by dying by various causes during the tribulation's seals two through six in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), which is only the first stage of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. It won't be until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over that Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) and marry the church (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7).

Also, it should be pointed out that no scripture says that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15) and then reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

This is the pre wrath rapture and not the second coming.

Note that no scripture teaches or requires a pre-wrath rapture, and that Matthew 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37b,42b,44b), which he'd just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30).

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

The second coming does not occur until Rev 19.

That's right, immediately after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

The pre wrath rapture occurs in Rev 7 ....great multitude and Rev 14.......The harvest to the clouds.

Note that neither Revelation 7 nor Revelation 14 refers to or requires a pre-wrath rapture.

Regarding Revelation 7, see the discussion above regarding the great multitude getting into heaven by dying.

Regarding the harvest in Revelation 14:15-16, that also refers to saved people getting into heaven by dying, as was shown from the scriptures in post #26.

Choose Wisely said in post #41:

Please explain this to Zeke. He has such a problem with this.

More should be added to what was said in the last part of post #37.

While God knows which people living on the earth today are descended from an ancient genetic Israelite (someone who was descended from one of the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the twelve genetic tribes arose: Genesis 49:28), some people living on the earth today who are descended from an ancient Israelite aren't considered by God to be spiritual Israelites, because they aren't elect (Romans 9:6-11). Nonelect genetic Israelites aren't even considered by God to be of God, but the children of Satan (John 8:42-47), just as all nonelect people, regardless of whether they're genetic Israelites or genetic Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of Satan (Matthew 13:38-42).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). Some non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be spiritual Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the elect non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before the second coming of Jesus Christ will become believers (and so become members of the church: Ephesians 4:4-6) at the second coming (Romans 11:26), when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all elect genetic Israelites will eventually be saved, they're only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

 

[zeke37]

By praying and asking God.

As was said in post #26, a genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

genetic gentiles aren't from any of the tribes.
we don't have to pray to understand that.
it sounds like a guess....

remember the vast amount of Christians that have "prayed to God" about a thing,
and only think they have received an answer...

how many here at this forum do so...???
and most of our views oppose each other, so they can't be all correct.
so, a claim of an answer coming from God, is just a claim.

im pretty sure that i can be traced back to the sons of Josheph,
but i am not completely sure.

 

[zeke37]

Bible2;59737686]
Israel is Israel and the church is the church........just like it says

yep...AND Israel is not a bunch of non believing antiChrist Jews.

Plenty of verses in the ot showing the elect is Israel.

Yep. not a bunch of unbelieving antiChrist Jews.

The church will be in heaven before Rev 14

nope...on earth at Mt Zion.
See Zec14 for further confirmation.
Rev is not as linear as you assume it to be.

only the dead in Christ part of the church is in heaven before Rev14.
the rest of us who are alive and remain unto His COMING,
are not ever going to heaven.

we stay here.

pre trib is a lie.

the pre wrath / post trib rapture is the only one to look forward to.

This is the pre wrath rapture and not the second coming. The second coming does not occur until Rev 19. The pre wrath rapture occurs in Rev 7 ....great multitude and Rev 14.......The harvest to the clouds.

He only comes one more time...
in 1Thes4, it is actually called His Coming.
and it happens only after the dead in Christ are brought from heaven
and raised here.

They are not referring to the second coming, they are referring to the Day of the Lord.

same day.
the Lord's 2nd Coming begins the "Day of the Lord".
that is when the rapture occurs....
not pre trib, but on the last day, when the dead oin Christ are raised.

The is a difference between the coming in the clouds in the pre trib rapture.......

no such thing...

the coming in the clouds in the pre wrath rapture......
the Day of the Lord........
and the second coming when he sets his foot on the mount of Olives.

same day. same Coming.

Please explain this to Zeke. He has such a problem with this.

if u care to learn, i'd love to show ya the scriptures that PROVE my point.
Judah and Israel are seperate in end time prophesy.
the Jews are not Israel...they are "part" of Israel.

bible2 said...

Indeed, Jews include individuals from all twelve of the tribes of Israel.

no they are not. Jews are of the house of Judah.

For there are no lost tribes of Israel, insofar as the ten northern tribes of Israel weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history.

correct. they migrated over time and became known as other peoples

But the ten northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history, because some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel, when it had first become idolatrous, some individuals from all ten of the northern tribes of Israel had left the northern kingdom of Israel to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews.

no, not Jews. they were of their own tribes, living in the house of Judah.

the vast majority of them are scattered to history, and are known as other peoples today

 

[franky67]

yep...AND Israel is not a bunch of non believing antiChrist Jews.


Yep. not a bunch of unbelieving antiChrist Jews.


nope...on earth at Mt Zion.
See Zec14 for further confirmation.
Rev is not as linear as you assume it to be.

only the dead in Christ part of the church is in heaven before Rev14.
the rest of us who are alive and remain unto His COMING,
are not ever going to heaven.

we stay here.

pre trib is a lie.

the pre wrath / post trib rapture is the only one to look forward to.


He only comes one more time...
in 1Thes4, it is actually called His Coming.
and it happens only after the dead in Christ are brought from heaven
and raised here.


same day.
the Lord's 2nd Coming begins the "Day of the Lord".
that is when the rapture occurs....
not pre trib, but on the last day, when the dead oin Christ are raised.


no such thing...


same day. same Coming.


if u care to learn, i'd love to show ya the scriptures that PROVE my point.
Judah and Israel are seperate in end time prophesy.
the Jews are not Israel...they are "part" of Israel.

bible2 said...

no they are not. Jews are of the house of Judah.


correct. they migrated over time and became known as other peoples



no, not Jews. they were of their own tribes, living in the house of Judah.

the vast majority of them are scattered to history, and are known as other peoples today

to Paraphrase Jeremiah 31:35-37

If the sun quits shining, and the earth quits turning, if you can measure the universe, then God says Israel will cease to be a nation before Him, and He will cast off the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

Post -trib is a joke, a house of cards. no scripture to support it. A big myth.

I'm on the second load out, a twinkling of an eye after the "dead in Christ" are gone.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Bible 2 since we pretty much disagree on everything lets concentrate on on point.

I say the triblation is over in Rev 6 when the sun and moon are darkened and I say the proof is Matt 24 when it says immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened etc.

How in the world can you conclude that the tribulation is not over?

 

[Choose Wisely]

to Paraphrase Jeremiah 31:35-37

If the sun quits shining, and the earth quits turning, if you can measure the universe, then God says Israel will cease to be a nation before Him, and He will cast off the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

Post -trib is a joke, a house of cards. no scripture to support it. A big myth.

I'm on the second load out, a twinkling of an eye after the "dead in Christ" are gone.

I am amazed that most post tribbers don't just throw in the towel when it says the dead in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER With those that are alive

House of cards is right.

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #45:

genetic gentiles aren't from any of the tribes.

As was pointed out in post #26, just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

zeke37 said in post #45:

we don't have to pray to understand that.
it sounds like a guess....

As was pointed out in post #42 and post #26, what a genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask about (instead of guessing about) is which tribe of Israel he as an individual is a part of. He will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

zeke37 said in post #45:

and most of our views oppose each other, so they can't be all correct.

That's true with regard to views about what the scriptures mean.

Who has claimed to have a view on what tribe someone else is a member of?

zeke37 said in post #45:

im pretty sure that i can be traced back to the sons of Josheph,
but i am not completely sure.

Why not ask God, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2)?

zeke37 said in post #46:

no, not Jews. they were of their own tribes, living in the house of Judah.

Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin (e.g. Romans 11:1) are Jews (e.g. Acts 22:3) because they're descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of the all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), because the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (G2453, G2448, H3063, H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

 

[Bible2]

franky67 said in post #47:

to Paraphrase Jeremiah 31:35-37

If the sun quits shining, and the earth quits turning, if you can measure the universe, then God says Israel will cease to be a nation before Him, and He will cast off the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

How do you feel Jeremiah 31:35-37 has been contradicted?

franky67 said in post #47:

Post -trib is a joke, a house of cards. no scripture to support it. A big myth.

Note that post-trib is the truth, as was shown from the scriptures in the third reply in post #35.

franky67 said in post #47:

I'm on the second load out, a twinkling of an eye after the "dead in Christ" are gone.

On what scriptures do you base your rejection of post-trib?

Also, when do you believe the rapture will happen (e.g. pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath), and on what scriptures do you base your belief?

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post #48:

I say the triblation is over in Rev 6 when the sun and moon are darkened and I say the proof is Matt 24 when it says immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened etc.

How in the world can you conclude that the tribulation is not over?

Because of the points shown from the scriptures in paragraphs 2-5 and 9-13 of post #36, and in paragraphs 3-5 of post #27.

Choose Wisely said in post #49:

I am amazed that most post tribbers don't just throw in the towel when it says the dead in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER With those that are alive

How do you feel post-trib contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

At Jesus' second coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers (of all times) will be brought down from heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15) and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who survived the tribulation on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together, but only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[zeke37]

As was pointed out in post #26, just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b),

Jews are not 12 tribes friend...
Israel is not one tribe. Israel is made up of many tribes.

Jews are but one house, they do not represent all Israel.

so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

spiritual Israel, sure. but not literal Israel.
Literal Israel is made up of the descendants of ancient Israel.
Ez47 is future to us.

So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

not IMO. only literal genetic Israel are the 12 tribes.
the gentile portion of the church is not literally from Israel.
spiritually, righteous Israel
spiritually, righteous jews.

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

where? the "New Covantent" is not just for literal Israel.
gentiles are grafted in....wild verses natural branches, as you know.

John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

sure, ok...

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

spiritual jews...
since some jews at the time were the only ones that had the truth about Jesus.
that's where it began.
most "jews" back then did not have the truth, or accept the truth

As was pointed out in post #42 and post #26, what a genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask about (instead of guessing about) is which tribe of Israel he as an individual is a part of. He will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

i don't buy that one.
there are literal descendants of ancient Israel around today.
and some of them are Christians today.
i'm pretty sure that the Roman's were actually from ancient scattered Israel

That's true with regard to views about what the scriptures mean.

Who has claimed to have a view on what tribe someone else is a member of?

many people here do so...they do so by geography...and some do by historic archeology
i do think there are hints revealed in archeology.

Why not ask God, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2)?

i'm not sure it matteres "which" one you are in.
as long as you are in....
literal descendants, Rev14.
gentile believers, Rev18:4

Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin (e.g. Romans 11:1) are Jews (e.g. Acts 22:3) because they're descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of the all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), because the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (G2453, G2448, H3063, H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

agreed. but in the NT there are basically just a few mentionings
of anyone that is from any other tribe other than Judah and Ben and Levi.
that IS the house of Judah by definition

anyway....the 144000 are not from Judah alone...
prob. not from the physical land of Judah at all.
they don't have to be, because most of their descendants
were scattered to the 4 winds a long time ago

 

[zeke37]

to Paraphrase Jeremiah 31:35-37

If the sun quits shining, and the earth quits turning, if you can measure the universe, then God says Israel will cease to be a nation before Him, and He will cast off the offspring of Israel for all they have done.

and?
why do so many folks think that the jews of today
are the Israel of the bible?

Post -trib is a joke, a house of cards. no scripture to support it. A big myth.

that statement is a joke Bro.

I'm on the second load out, a twinkling of an eye after the "dead in Christ" are gone.

what do you mean by "second load out"?

the "twinkling of an eye" describes the "bodily change"
from flesh to spirit (aer/pneuma) that happens when the Lord returns
to those of us that are alive and remain unto His Coming.
we shall be changed to be like the angels.

in 1Thes4, the dead in Christ are brought from heaven and raised here.
then after that, we who are alive and remain unto His Coming,
shall be seized together with the returning dead,
in that changed spiritual body...
"caught up in the spirit"

the rapture happens after the dead aree brought from heaven
and raised here.

so, when you see dead folk from the past, walking around,
like John the baptist and the other disciples,
then it is rapture time.

but not before that.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Bible2;59755722]

Because of the points shown from the scriptures in paragraphs 2-5 and 9-13 of post #36, and in paragraphs 3-5 of post #27.

Well, those points are wrong. The tribulation is over as witnessed by Matt 24 and Rev 6. The sun is darkened, the moon shall not give its light and the stars shall fall from heaven.

The tribulation is over and the Day of the Lord has begun. See Rev 6. The wrath of God begins with the 7th seal.

How do you feel post-trib contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

At Jesus' second coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers (of all times) will be brought down from heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15) and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who survived the tribulation on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together, but only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

1 Thes 4 16-17 is the pre tribulation rapture which begins at the "Trump of God" or the voice of God. The dead in Christ and the alive believers are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. They will end up in heaven and experience the marriage supper along with those caught up in the pre wrath rapture. This will occur at the "Last Trump" which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. They are the multitude of Rev 7 and the harvest of Rev 14. The pre wrath rapture will involve pre flood believers, old testament saints and those believers killed in the tribulation along with the alive elect.

We see them return to earth in the second coming.....Rev 19.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post #53:

Jews are not 12 tribes friend...

Actually, they are.

Jews include all twelve tribes of Israel, as was shown from the scriptures in the last part of post #37, and in the last part of post #50.

zeke37 said in post #53:

Israel is not one tribe. Israel is made up of many tribes.

That's right.

zeke37 said in post #53:

Jews are but one house, they do not represent all Israel.

See above, in reply to "Jews are not 12 tribes".

zeke37 said in post #53:

so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

spiritual Israel, sure. but not literal Israel.

If by literal Israel, you mean genetic Israel, that's right.

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:24), and all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted into and become part of the good olive tree of Israel.

zeke37 said in post #53:

Literal Israel is made up of the descendants of ancient Israel.

If by literal Israel, you mean genetic Israel, that's right.

But note that Romans 9:6-24 explicitly states that people being the true "Israel" isn't based on them being the natural (i.e. the flesh/genetic) seed.

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh" Paul means the Jews, who are the genetic children (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37); and by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise" Paul means the elect, both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27).

When Romans 9:8 says "the children of the promise are counted for the seed", it's referring to both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), because both some Jews and some Gentiles are the seed of promise (Galatians 3:28-29) just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). So Paul is employing Isaac and Jacob in Romans 9:9-13 as types for all the elect, both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24), just as Paul is using Esau in Romans 9:11-13 as a type for all the nonelect, both nonelect Jews and nonelect Gentiles such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, cf. Exodus 9:12,16).

Because all those in the church, both believing Jews and believing Gentiles, are spiritually the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29), and because the seed of Abraham is only Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1, 2 Chronicles 20:7), the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24, Galatians 4:28, Galatians 3:16,29), and so are heirs of all the promises made by YHWH to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17,24).

zeke37 said in post #53:

Ez47 is future to us.

It could be. And even if won't be, the basic principle remains that if even those who are strangers in Israel can be considered to be members of the various tribes of Israel to the point where they can even inherit the land of the various tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are no more strangers to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), are considered by God to be grafted into the various tribes of Israel when they're grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

-

Ezekiel chapters 40-48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen (like those in Revelation must happen: Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus Christ on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns, he will still build a New Covenant temple building in Jerusalem before which New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build the temple and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40-48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

zeke37 said in post #53:

So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

not IMO. only literal genetic Israel are the 12 tribes.

Actually, believing Gentiles are grafted into the 12 tribes, as was shown from the scriptures in the first part of post #50.

Also, as was pointed out in the 144,000 part of post #26, the tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8), because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17), but rather spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Also, regarding the reference to Revelation 21:9b,12b:

Revelation 21:12b refers to the twelve tribes of Israel in its description of the bride of Jesus Christ in Revelation 21:9b, and the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:9b-10 and Revelation 21:2 mean that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else. For example, the fig tree in Matthew 21:19 was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving Israel being without fruit (Matthew 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them (Revelation 21:12), so the church consists of the twelve tribes of Israel, as was shown from the scriptures in the first part of post #50.

zeke37 said in post #53:

the gentile portion of the church is not literally from Israel.
spiritually, righteous Israel
spiritually, righteous jews.

See above, in reply to "spiritual Israel, sure. but not literal Israel".

zeke37 said in post #53:

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

where?

Where what?

If you mean where does it say the New Covenant is made only with Israel, the references were given:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 doesn't have to say that the New Covenant is made "only" with Israel to mean that, just as it doesn't have to say that the Old Mosaic Covenant was made "only" with Israel to mean that (Jeremiah 31:32). It's because the New Covenant is made only with Israel that salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b) and the gospel goes to the Jew first (Romans 1:16). It's also why Jesus Christ said Matthew 15:24,26 in the context of being asked to minister to someone who wasn't of Israel (Matthew 15:22-26). It's also why Gentile believers have been grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10).

zeke37 said in post #53:

the "New Covantent" is not just for literal Israel.

If by literal Israel, you mean genetic Israel, that's right.

zeke37 said in post #53:

gentiles are grafted in....wild verses natural branches, as you know.

Yes. (See above, in reply to "spiritual Israel, sure. but not literal Israel")

zeke37 said in post #53:

since some jews at the time were the only ones that had the truth about Jesus.
that's where it began.

If by Jews you mean genetic Jews, that's right.

The gospel goes to genetic Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24) and salvation is of genetic Jews (John 4:22b) because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Genetic Gentile believers are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). Also, all believers, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

zeke37 said in post #53:

most "jews" back then did not have the truth, or accept the truth

If by Jews you mean genetic Jews, that's right (e.g. John 12:37-41).

zeke37 said in post #53:

As was pointed out in post #42 and post #26, what a genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask about (instead of guessing about) is which tribe of Israel he as an individual is a part of. He will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

i don't buy that one.

It's free. Why don't you accept it?

zeke37 said in post #53:

there are literal descendants of ancient Israel around today.
and some of them are Christians today.

That's right.

How does that contradict the fact that Gentile believers can know what tribe they've been grafted into?

zeke37 said in post #53:

i'm pretty sure that the Roman's were actually from ancient scattered Israel

Based on what evidence?

zeke37 said in post #53:

Who has claimed to have a view on what tribe someone else is a member of?

many people here do so...they do so by geography...and some do by historic archeology
i do think there are hints revealed in archeology.

Are you referring to the idea of the tribes of Israel being countries or geographical regions?

If so, the tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions, but consist of individuals, who can be living in any country or region.

Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another.

zeke37 said in post #53:

i'm not sure it matteres "which" one you are in.
as long as you are in....

If you mean it doesn't matter with regard to salvation, that's right.

But it's still nice to know which tribe you're a part of.

zeke37 said in post #53:

literal descendants, Rev14.

If by Revelation 14, you mean the 144,000, they can include both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers, as was shown from the scriptures in the 144,000 part of post #26.

Also, note again what was said with regard to the tribe of Dan in the above reply to "not IMO. only literal genetic Israel are the 12 tribes".

zeke37 said in post #53:

gentile believers, Rev18:4

Revelation 18:4 can include both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers.

zeke37 said in post #53:

in the NT there are basically just a few mentionings
of anyone that is from any other tribe other than Judah and Ben and Levi.
that IS the house of Judah by definition

By definition based on what?

See again what was said in the last part of post #50, and in the last part of post #37.

zeke37 said in post #53:

anyway....the 144000 are not from Judah alone...

If you mean genetically descended from the tribe of Judah alone, that's right.

If you mean genetically descended only from people who were once part of the kingdom/territory of Judah, that's also right.

zeke37 said in post #53:

prob. not from the physical land of Judah at all.

Why not at all?

zeke37 said in post #53:

they don't have to be, because most of their descendants
were scattered to the 4 winds a long time ago

By descendants did you mean ancestors?

And doesn't "most" mean that some weren't?

So can't some of the 144,000 have grown up in Israel, being born to people whose ancestors never left Israel?

Also, can't some of the 144,000 be living in Israel now because they moved there, after they and their ancestors were born and/or raised somewhere else?

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

Because of the points shown from the scriptures in paragraphs 2-5 and 9-13 of post #36, and in paragraphs 3-5 of post #27.

Well, those points are wrong.

How do you feel they've been proven wrong?

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

The tribulation is over as witnessed by Matt 24 and Rev 6. The sun is darkened, the moon shall not give its light and the stars shall fall from heaven.

That was addressed in detail in paragraphs 9-13 and 2-5 of post #36.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

The tribulation is over and the Day of the Lord has begun. See Rev 6. The wrath of God begins with the 7th seal.

Note that Revelation 6 doesn't require that, as was shown from the scriptures in paragraphs 3-12 of post #27.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

1 Thes 4 16-17 is the pre tribulation rapture which begins at the "Trump of God" or the voice of God. The dead in Christ and the alive believers are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

On what do you base your idea of this being pre-trib instead of post-trib?

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

They will end up in heaven and experience the marriage supper along with those caught up in the pre wrath rapture.

Regarding "They will end up in heaven", do you mean the third heaven? If so, note that that idea was addressed back in post #44, where it was pointed out that no scripture says that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15) and then reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

They will end up in heaven and experience the marriage supper along with those caught up in the pre wrath rapture.

Regarding the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9), note that it hasn't yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't occur until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. For, with regard to the church, it will be a literal feast which will occur in the earthly Jerusalem after the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will feast on good meats and wines (Isaiah 25:6-9), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the world defeated at the second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, with regard to the marriage itself, note that the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Revelation 19:7 likewise shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until Revelation 19, which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13), the extra oil (Matthew 25:4) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter into the marriage of the church at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21). So the parable of the ten virgins applies to how believers are to prepare themselves spiritually for the second coming (Matthew 25:10).

But that preparation will also be valuable during the coming tribulation (which will precede the second coming: Matthew 24:29-30), for it's only by obeying Jesus now, in these days and during the tribulation, that believers' spiritual houses will be on the rock (Matthew 7:24-25), so that during the storm of the tribulation they won't fall away (commit apostasy) (Matthew 7:26-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:3) due to their awful suffering during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Isaiah 8:21-22, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, 1 Peter 4:12-13).

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Matthew 25:10's bridal chamber will be in the clouds of the sky at the second coming of Jesus (Revelation 19:7, 1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 (Matthew 24:29-31).

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

They will end up in heaven and experience the marriage supper along with those caught up in the pre wrath rapture.

Regarding a pre-wrath rapture (as opposed to post-trib), note that no scripture teaches or requires one.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

This will occur at the "Last Trump" which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Can you quote the ancient source for this claim, so we can see what it says?

Some people feel that the seventh trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15-19), which will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, must be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. But the "last trump" won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:29-31), which doesn't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Some people feel that Revelation 11:15-19 means the second coming will occur immediately after the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's (the beast's) 1,260-day worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) with the reign of Jesus (Revelation 11:15). But a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come" (Revelation 11:18), for the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1).

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The vials of God's wrath could then last for 75 days, for they could begin immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36); and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation:

Daniel 12:11-12 (and Revelation 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 (literal 24-hour) days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15), Jesus will return, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day.

If the 3.5 years/1,260 (literal 24-hour) days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6b) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 3.5 years/1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5-16:1), and if the first six vials will be poured out over a period of 30 days, then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12/Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus returns on the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12, Revelation 16:15). The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

But before Jesus defeats them, at his second coming the church (which is the elect: Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2) will first be raptured into the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) to be judged by the returned Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to him (Revelation 19:7).

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Jesus won't return and take de facto, physical possession of the earth until after the seventh vial of the tribulation has occurred (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-20:3). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves to California to live in that house.

At Jesus' return, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry it (Revelation 19:7). Immediately after that, Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And because a "time" can last awhile, this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' return won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until after the returned Jesus and the resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within the "time" of Revelation 11:18, because the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

They are the multitude of Rev 7 and the harvest of Rev 14.

Regarding the multitude of Revelation 7, that was addressed in the 5th section of post #44.

Regarding the harvest of Revelation 14:14-16, that was addressed in the 3rd section of post #26.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

The pre wrath rapture will involve pre flood believers, old testament saints and those believers killed in the tribulation along with the alive elect.

Regarding the OT saints, see the 4th paragraph of post #37.

Choose Wisely said in post #55:

We see them return to earth in the second coming.....Rev 19.

Which verses of Revelation 19 are you thinking of here?