The New Apostasy

[Clare73]

Well the way that democracy works is that the majority can enact a law, even if there are a minority of persons that are against it.

Not unless they can get it through the Senate where the minority has as much power as the majority.

The people who would be complaining are those that are in the minority.

We are not a democracy. We are a democratic republic.
And in this republic, each state has equal representation in the Senate, no matter how small the state is.

I am not sure why you think I am unaware of the principle of self-preservation. Love toward oneself is a fundamental principle of morality. It is right there at paragraph 2264 of the Catholic Catechism.

Because you suggest the people passing harmful laws allowing crimes to which no citizen would want to be subject.

 

[Clare73]

Shocking perspective to take as a present tense proposition.

The Bible is my governor, not the present times.
Immoral is only what Scripture says it is.

And just because it is Biblically moral does not mean it is desirable and should be required.
It just means it is not immoral.
Don't confuse the two.

 

[Clare73]

The above comment is completely irrelevant.

Only if the USA's government is not included in "governments."

 

[Clare73]

This forum never ceases to amaze.

You are free to Biblically demonstrate any Biblical error.

 

[Clare73]

Please document the sources for the claims.

Pictures of the well-dressed with their luggage waiting in the line of immigrants, and government employees working at the border.

 

[Clare73]

Well, that is where the thread title and OP pointed. Some Christians treat social concern, compassion, and love expressed towards the poor, refugees, and homeless people as if it were apostasy. If one does not vote conservative, talk conservative, and act conservative as conservative expresses itself by the right leaning parties of one's nation then one is an apostate according to them.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

 

[IcyChain]

Not unless they can get it through the Senate where the minority has as much power as the majority.

We are not a democracy. We are a democratic republic.
And in this republic, each state has equal representation in the Senate, no matter how small the state is.

Because you suggest the people passing harmful laws allowing crimes to which no citizen would want to be subject.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'm honestly not sure what part of the question you would like me to clarify. If you can explain exactly what part or aspect of the question you would like me to clarify, I will attempt to do so.

Would you imagine that there are Christians whom the Holy Spirit never prompts to help poor people?

It appears that your view is that Christians do have a moral obligation to support the poor, but that moral obligation is bound on the heart of the Christian by the promptings of the Holy Spirit, rather than as a legal code of sorts. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would probably say that the moral obligation to help the poor is part of the natural law binding on man as part of our nature and by way of God's relationship to man.

Let's take an atheist (John) who has 10 billion dollars. He is walking down the street and sees a 10 year old homeless girl (Jane) on the street, starving to death. Jane politely asks John if he can buy her 1 basic meal so that she will not starve to death. There are no impediments from John doing so (such as lack of time, fear of being scammed). John simply says "no, I do not have to help you, it is my money and I do not feel like helping you at the moment".

In my view John has committed a grave sin by refusing to help Jane in that situation. It does not matter that he is not Christian and that the Holy Spirit has not prompted him to help Jane.

Or let's say that John in this situation is a Christian, but for whatever (granted, unlikely) reason the Holy Spirit has not prompted him to help Jane. John still refuses. I think John has still sinned, regardless of the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

We tried to help one man who we had some previous dealings with. He was obviously mentally troubled. He stood outside our Bible School for a long time staring at the sign. We offered help that time but he refused. He claimed to be a Christian. We came across him again. This time he was homeless. We put together a food pack for him and phoned him to arrange to meet. He was too busy. He rang us back later. I'd given him a Bible as well as other help previously. He said that he could meet us. I asked him how he went reading the Bible. He told us that he did not believe any more. So I said that he was not a Christian in that case. That upset him and he hung up on me.

Perhaps it's an Australia thing, but a surprising (to me) number of obviously desperate people refuse help. Pride is a terrible thing. Some supposedly needy people are just scammers. We prefer to give goods rather than money for that reason. And if society goes cashless, that makes it impossible to help that way anyhow.

Unbelievers are dead in trespass and sin. God obviously does not judge them on earthly behaviour when they do right. But they are eternally separated from God anyway. Giving a few bucks to a homeless person is easy if you have billions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

Yes, agreed, that is why I provided abundant scripture for the OP and subsequent posts.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Pictures of the well-dressed with their luggage waiting in the line of immigrants, and government employees working at the border.

And being well dressed is proof of what?

 

[fhansen]

Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:

• There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
• "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
• "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
• You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

Catholicism, and some other voices within Christianity, walks its own line. It will seem conservative on the issue of abortion but often liberal on matters of social justice.

 

[hislegacy]

I did in my post. Didn't you read the passages from the ESV?

I'll repeat them here, for you.

• There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
• "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
• "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
• You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

You do know the ‘sojourner and strangers in those verses were enslaved by the people of the land they were in. (Egypt).
The verses address how slaves are to be treated.

 

[hislegacy]

Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:

Let us know what you are doing to keep from being ‘apostate’. How many sojourners have you clothed, or fed or housed. How about your church? Have they provided for any of the millions who illegally came across the border this year?


I am a Christian, so I cannot speak for a religionist, but I can speak as the child of a legal immigrant.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You do know the ‘sojourner and strangers in those verses were enslaved by the people of the land they were in. (Egypt).
The verses address how slaves are to be treated.

You think so?

 

[hislegacy]

You think so?

I know so.

 

[JulieB67]

Most Christians I think are to be led to help their neighbors or strangers on a personal level if possible. It's impossible to discern on a bigger stage seeing how we don't even know if some of these strangers would cause us harm, etc. What are the reasons for going to certain countries, etc.

There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)

We have to have context here. The subject is who can partake in the Passover. This has nothing to do with the laws of governments today.

Exodus 12:48 "And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof."

Exodus 12:49 "One law shall be to him that is home born, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

• You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
• "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

I think as Christians in our daily lives this is easy to accomplish. But we have to remember to not split this verse into two parts and only side with the the latter.

Luke 10:27 "And he answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind and thy neighbour as thyself."

When it comes to certain governments there are laws in place that are an abomination to God. So supporting those would not be loving the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength and mind. You would be in complete opposition to God in fact.


We have to realize it's not a perfect world where the laws are concerned and won't be until Christ returns. But Christians have to vote according to how they are led by the Holy Spirit and their conscience. We all have to follow our own journey and how we feel we are being led.

Also, at some point there will be a huge apostasy coming up and that's the one we really need to worry about. But that's not for this thread...