The New Apostasy

Xeno.of.athens

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
If it is not done in love then it is not from Him. One should ask themselves with every decision that needs to be made by beginning the question as follows:

Is it loving to feed the poor?
Is it loving to house the homeless?
Or
Is it loving not to feed the poor?
Is it loving not to house the homeless?


Blessings
 
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Soyeong

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
Speaking as someone who votes conservative, there is not a Christian party. The US essentially has a two party system with not a lot of nuance. For example, if someone's against abortion, then for the most part their only option is to vote for the Republican party, regardless of whether or not they agree with other things on the Republican platform, and vice versa.

It is not as though on party wants to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, and the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy while the other doesn't, but rather there is a disagreement about the best way to go about doing this and what is the most effective use of resources. There are ways of helping that have done more harm than good, so we should not simply be in favor of anything that throws money at the problem. For example, foreign aid can do damage to foreign economies, increase state corruption, postpone necessary reforms, and create wrong incentives. We should be willing to evaluate whether something is effectively aiding the people who need it the most, whether it is easy for people who don't need to take advantage of it, whether it is fostering independency or dependency, whether it is the most effective short or long-term solution, or whether it is more effective to be handled privately rather than at a national level.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Speaking as someone who votes conservative, there is not a Christian party. The US essentially has a two party system with not a lot of nuance. For example, if someone's against abortion, then for the most part their only option is to vote for the Republican party, regardless of whether or not they agree with other things on the Republican platform, and vice versa.

It is not as though on party wants to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, and the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy while the other doesn't, but rather there is a disagreement about the best way to go about doing this and what is the most effective use of resources. There are ways of helping that have done more harm than good, so we should not simply be in favor of anything that throws money at the problem. For example, foreign aid can do damage to foreign economies, increase state corruption, postpone necessary reforms, and create wrong incentives. We should be willing to evaluate whether something is effectively aiding the people who need it the most, whether it is easy for people who don't need to take advantage of it, whether it is fostering independency or dependency, whether it is the most effective short or long-term solution, or whether it is more effective to be handled privately rather than at a national level.
Yet the stranger in the land is oppressed, turned away in their poverty, refused the same justice that the citizen has a right to, they go hungry, do not receive medical care without risking bankruptcy, and if the only reason these things are as they are is a disagreement about how to reverse them then why not stop doing them and then sort out how to pay for it or whatever other details are the differences between one party and the other?

But I raised these matters as examples only. The heart of the matter is encapsulated in a kind of doxology that saint Paul wrote in one of his letters, it is a reflection of our Lord's sermon on the mount from Matthew chapters five through seven, and it reads thus:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind;
love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.
It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends.
As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.​
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV)

Christianity as a lived experience ought to bear one fruit above all others, love for our neighbour as deep as our love for ourselves.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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We should be willing to evaluate whether something is effectively aiding the people who need it the most, whether it is easy for people who don't need to take advantage of it, whether it is fostering independency or dependency, whether it is the most effective short or long-term solution, or whether it is more effective to be handled privately rather than at a national level.
We already know that "private" handling is not sufficient. Yes, let us evaluate all those aspects. But let us also take care not to dehumanize and regard the "others" as a problems in the way of our own comfort and security.
 
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eleos1954

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
It's about the freedom to worship according to one's conscience ... religious worship is not to be forced on anyone by the state .... nor is the state to dictate that one can not worship according to one's conscience. If a country does not provide for this then worship (or not allowed to worship) is a forced issue (by the state). With Christianity .... worship is a choice and that choice needs to be in place. God don't force Himself on anyone.

The problem we face and other countries ... is the sudden influx (masses) of migrants ... if they were to "trickle" into countries then they could better provide for them. Mass migration is over whelming systems that are in place and can most certainly bankrupt the system entirely (create a financial collapse) .... if that happens then what? It looks like to me the entire world is headed towards a global financial collapse just as predicted. Each country can only work within it's means and most countries can not adequately deal with the masses coming into their country.

The other thing that is happening is the "clash of cultures" ...... those coming into the various countries come from a variety of different cultures and beliefs.

It's a real conundrum.
 
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Clare73

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
The United States is not a theocracy.

We don't live in a theocracy just as the early Christians did not live in a theocracy.
Christians are to submit to the laws of their ruling authorities, including the non-theocratic (Ro 13:1-7, Tit 3:1, 1 Pe 2:13-14).
And our laws require legal citizenship to live among us.
All those here illegally are in violation of the laws to which Scripture commands us to submit.
That is lawlessness, and we are commanded to be lawful, not to support lawlessness.

Lawfulness (obedience to our laws) is not apostasy, it is faithfulness.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The United States is not a theocracy.

We don't live in a theocracy just as the early Christians did not live in a theocracy.
Christians are to submit to the laws of their ruling authorities, including the non-theocratic (Ro 13:1-7, Tit 3:1, 1 Pe 2;13-14).
And our laws require legal citizenship to live among us.
All those here illegally are in violation of the laws to which Scripture commands us to submit.
That is lawlessness, and we are commanded to be lawful, not to support lawlessness.

Lawfulness (obedience to our laws) is not apostasy, it is faithfulness.
Christians do live in a theocracy with Christ as their king.

Christians submit to the legal authorities like a diplomat from the Kingdom of God does, but not as an unquestioning citizen of the state, so Christians are subject first to God and his laws above the laws of the land. So, Christians are called to be merciful, act with love, and help the stranger as if the stranger were a Christian in need. If a Christian abandons the Law of Love to serve the laws of the state, then that is apostasy.
 
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IcyChain

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Speaking as someone who votes conservative, there is not a Christian party. The US essentially has a two party system with not a lot of nuance. For example, if someone's against abortion, then for the most part their only option is to vote for the Republican party, regardless of whether or not they agree with other things on the Republican platform, and vice versa.
I don't think that Christians in the US need to "choose the lesser of two evils". There are pro-life Christian parties like the ASP that would have a chance if Christians actually supported them, instead of saying "voting for the Republicans is my only option because only the Democrats or the Republicans can win."
It is not as though on party wants to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, and the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy while the other doesn't, but rather there is a disagreement about the best way to go about doing this and what is the most effective use of resources. There are ways of helping that have done more harm than good, so we should not simply be in favor of anything that throws money at the problem. For example, foreign aid can do damage to foreign economies, increase state corruption, postpone necessary reforms, and create wrong incentives. We should be willing to evaluate whether something is effectively aiding the people who need it the most, whether it is easy for people who don't need to take advantage of it, whether it is fostering independency or dependency, whether it is the most effective short or long-term solution, or whether it is more effective to be handled privately rather than at a national level.
I think that is right, but the same principles can be applied to abortion and other issues that Republicans claim as their own. There may be policies outside of the Republican party (such as making paid maternal leave mandatory for a significant period after childbirth, for example) that may have a greater effect of reducing the actual number of abortions than could be obtained through attempts at outlawing abortion procedures. I don't think that a person must conclude "if you are pro-life and want to reduce the number of abortions, then the Republican party is the only option" any more so than a person needs to say "if you are pro-immigrants, and pro-poor people, you must choose the Democrats."
 
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Clare73

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Christians do live in a theocracy with Christ as their king.

Christians submit to the legal authorities like a diplomat from the Kingdom of God does, but not as an unquestioning citizen of the state, so Christians are subject first to God and his laws above the laws of the land. So, Christians are called to be merciful, act with love, and help the stranger as he the stranger were a Christian in need. If a Christian abandons the Law of Love to serve the laws of the state, then that is apostasy.
The laws of our land do not permit illegal immigrants. There is nothing contra-Biblical in this law.
The law of God does not require me to enable lawlessness by providing for law breakers.
The law of God requires me to submit to the laws of this land, which forbid illegal immigration.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
The laws of our land do not permit illegal immigrants. There is nothing contra-Biblical in this law.
The law of God does not require me to enable lawlessness by providing for law breakers.
The law of God requires me to submit to the laws of this land, which forbid illegal immigration.
There is a great deal in God's law that contradicts what you've written.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
Israel was and is a unique nation. The whole country was to be governed by the Law of God. Most countries are secular. While laws may be based on some biblical principles, America deliberately decided to separate church and state.

I don't know how you reconcile politics and faith. If you vote for "progressives" you are voting for unrestricted abortion, gender is a choice, union control over every industry, and oppression of Christians by "hate speech" laws. If you want evidence of this, check out Canada.

We should love our neighbour. That does not mean meekly submitting to drug gangs or Muslim terrorists. Europe is finding out what unrestricted migration is like, especially the UK. Sojourners need to be willing to coexist with the culture of the country they adopt, not attempt by force to change it.

Christians need to remember that we are the true authority on earth. Expecting politicians to resolve the problems of society is futile. Much of the time, they have no idea of what goes on in the real world. Christians should be aware of the real power behind the world system - Satan, of course. If we spent more time resisting the devil, binding the "Strong man" and praying for God's kingdom to come, we would see worthwhile changes in society. It won't be a man or woman that MAGA. Conservative/Leftist are two sides of the same coin. God's judgement is "born again/dead in trespass and sin". I vote for Jesus every day!
 
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The laws of our land do not permit illegal immigrants. There is nothing contra-Biblical in this law.
The law of God does not require me to enable lawlessness by providing for law breakers.
The law of God requires me to submit to the laws of this land, which forbid illegal immigration.
Nice argument, in addition, to those statements, those advocating for the policies are not considering the consequences for the people, the immigration issue is one of the most blaring examples of this. It is good that the governors are forcing the issue by busing them to sanctuary cities so that those who want to take care of them can. This is forcing people to live with the consequences of their choices. The problem with Liberial policies is, someone else has to pay for it and live with it.
 
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IcyChain

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The laws of our land do not permit illegal immigrants. There is nothing contra-Biblical in this law.
The law of God does not require me to enable lawlessness by providing for law breakers.
The law of God requires me to submit to the laws of this land, which forbid illegal immigration.

Feel free to present it that I may examine it.
What are the limits (if any) on restricting immigration in your view?

For example, if the USA enacted a new law barring all immigration from foreign countries - would you consider that to be inconsistent with Christian principles?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Feel free to present it that I may examine it.
I did in my post. Didn't you read the passages from the ESV?

I'll repeat them here, for you.
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
 
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IcyChain

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The United States is not a theocracy.

We don't live in a theocracy just as the early Christians did not live in a theocracy.
Christians are to submit to the laws of their ruling authorities, including the non-theocratic (Ro 13:1-7, Tit 3:1, 1 Pe 2;13-14).
And our laws require legal citizenship to live among us.
All those here illegally are in violation of the laws to which Scripture commands us to submit.
That is lawlessness, and we are commanded to be lawful, not to support lawlessness.

Lawfulness (obedience to our laws) is not apostasy, it is faithfulness.
Interesting.

Is the Christian obligated to submit to immoral laws? Such as laws that support abortion, or laws that enable slavery or Jim crow? Did blacks in the south act against Christian principles when they refused to submit to the segregation laws and attempted to eat in places reserved for whites?

How about a law that forbid a student from praying or reading the Bible in a public school? Should the Christian submit to that?

I think you see the point.

I don't think we can say that simply because immigration laws exist, that those laws are just and must be submitted to. The question is whether or not our current immigration policy is consistent with Christian principles.
 
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Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:
  • There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
  • "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
  • "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
  • You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
  • And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

You don't get to undermine the foundation of your country and get credit for being nice to immigrants.

Typically, people who think like you follow a different god - the god of equality. This is where most atheists hang out too. This is forbidden.

Did you know God hates bricks in altars?

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone [brick]: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Why would God hate bricks?

Bricks and stones represent people. Interestingly, the Tower of Babel was about this very problem. The leaders of the day were transforming stones (everybody unequal) into bricks (everybody equal.) The mortar that held everything together was materialism.

Bricks or Stones? [Go to time 6:40.]
 
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