The gift of Tongues

[Imagican]

Hillsage,

What you have failed to prove, (because there IS NO SUCH proof in the Bible), is that there are numerous DIFFERENT sorts of 'unknown tongues' so far as 'spirit' is concerned.

What the Bible DOES say is that the ONLY legitimate 'unknown tongues' delivered through the power of God are offered, "As the Spirit gives utterance". And all that recognize the truth realize that there ARE NOT TRUE 'unknown tongues' that are NOT offered "As the Spirit gives utterance". "As the Spirit gives utterance" is how we KNOW it is a GIFT from God.

Speaking in gibberish is NOT how 'the Spirit would give utterance'. Paul makes it perfectly clear by defining the RULES of tongues so that we can KNOW whether they are REAL or FALSE.

It is only in your imagination that there are TWO separate forms of 'unknown tongues'. And the manner in which you attempt to place FALSE understanding on scripture that is perfectly clear shows that you aren't looking for the truth. Merely attempting to justify your behavior regardless of scripture or it's TRUE meaning.

Paul spends many chapters and many words emphasizing that tongues are the LEAST important of gifts. Second to last to all but interpretation. And then implores the Corinthians to seek after the BEST gifts.

He also STATES that 'where there are tongues, they shall CEASE'. An indication that in time, they would NO LONGER EXIST.

When DO YOU suppose that TIME was/is? It was obviously offered for a reason.

Prophecy has already been offered in completion. We have already been offered what is going to be 'the end' of this world as we know it.

And it is MY opinion that since they were mentioned TOGETHER when we are told that they would CEASE, that in TRUTH, they BOTH most likely CEASED at or around the SAME TIME. If that's the case, then the NEED for 'unknown tongues' CEASED about the time John wrote Revelation.

And it would stand to reason that by the time John wrote Revelation, apostles had spread the 'good news' throughout the KNOWN world. And once 'the churches' had been established among those of 'other tongues', there would no longer be a NEED for such a 'gift'.

But back to the MOST important words of Paul. To illustrate the IMPORTANCE of 'unknown tongues' by STATING that 'in the church' he had rather speak five words of understanding than 10,000 words in an 'unknown tongues' speak VOLUMES so far as edification is concerned. He is basically stating that they are useless in the 'church' among BELIEVERS.

For: 'tongues are for a sign, NOT to them that BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT'.

And there is absolutely NO indication in Paul's words that he speaks of two distinct FORMS of tongues other than, perhaps, one BEING the gift of God and another that is purely imaginary or worse.

For it would make absolutely NO sense to go back and forth in the same chapters, in one line referring to ONE form of tongues, and in another line ANOTHER form of tongues. That's just NOT how the Bible is written. Heck, that's how ANYTHING is written that is capable of offering any tangible SENSE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[SteveCaruso]

I am often approached by people who claim that they were "told by the Spirit" that their tongues were in Aramaic.

To date, after about ~100 such examples, there has only been one positive, identified instance.

That instance, however, sounded suspiciously familiar -- and was actually a translation *I* did the previous year.

So, on top of the large number of people who weren't doing what they thought they were, there are folks out there who are willing to go to lengths to fake it convincingly.

 

[Imagican]

Here's the TRUTH so far as I'm concerned.

It is my FIRM belief that if the tongues I have witnessed being spoken, (gibberish), were HOLY or had anything to do with righteousness or anything 'Godly', why would God ALLOW me to be SO OBLIVIOUS to it's intent? Why would God ALLOW me to find it offensive to my very spirit or soul? That makes absolutely NO SENSE to me.

And all indications from those practicing 'tongues', (gibberish), is that I have YET to be born in the Spirit. And I find THAT accusation to be even MORE offensive.

It's like, "Either you BELIEVE it as WE do or you're NOT 'saved' and remain IGNORANT". Yet most of those with whom I've discussed the matter, to ME, are in general, VERY ignorant as to understanding the Bible.

From what I have witnessed, the Charismatic Movement appeals to those that are LOOKING for excitement and carnal PLEASURE in the manner in which they choose to worship. Their gatherings are more akin to the feeling involved with attending a circus rather than a 'church'. While I would encourage NEITHER, I believe that practically all the instruction offered by the Bible would favor being SERIOUS in the 'gathering' than acting like it's a Circus.

And having gotten to know a number of the members of 'a' particular Pentecostal Church that encouraged the practice of 'speaking in tongues', it was the same group of women each week who broke out, (at the SAME TIME), speaking in tongues. But the saddest part of getting to actually KNOW them, every one of them were either single, divorced or widowed and VERY VERY LONELY.

While one could SAY that this had no bearing, I BELIEVE that it did. They found that they could receive ATTENTION in the 'church' speaking in tongues, (gibberish), and otherwise would probably have been IGNORED. So their 'speaking in gibberish' allowed them to not only FIT IN, but to be LOOK upon by the other members as 'spirit filled'. Placing them in a position to find MUCH 'self edification'. In essence, to themselves, they became not only MEMBERS of the 'church', but kind of like the CO stars of the 'church'.

This is my interpretation of what I witnessed. I actually felt sorry for this group of women. For they were all over weight, over forty and seemingly had little interest in life in general. Yet when one of them 'started up', they all joined in EVERY WEEK. No interpreter. Just making strange sounding noises like they were in PAIN. And they were always the same one's to run up front for the ANOINTING so they could fall down.

I once spoke to the pastor after a service. I mentioned to him that Paul had laid out the RULES of tongues and in those rules, it was stated that IN THE CHURCH that those that would speak in tongues would do it IN ORDER. One, two, NO MORE than THREE in a gathering, BY COURSE, (in ORDER), and that there MUST be an interpreter. I said, there were a BUNCH of people speaking at the same time and there was NO 'interpreter'. His response was, "I know". He acknowledged that Paul's words existed and that he understood them, but offered no explanation whatsoever as to WHY he wasn't doing what he was able to teach them DIFFERENTLY. Later I found out that he was not REALLY a pastor other than his own intent. He was a music director at a church and basically got a significant number of the women from that church to follow him in forming his own. He later openly admitted that he had never read ALL of the Bible. Yet was attempting to LEAD a 'church'. And obviously he wasn't going to dissuade ANYONE from being a member by suggesting that they behavior was inappropriate.

Yep. Just ONE example. But one that was extreme enough for me to make a pretty good judgment of.

My wife's son was a member. A youth group went on a field trip to some 'religious festival', (don't recall the name), but while there, in order to impress a young girl he was interested in, he 'spoke in tongues'. When I asked him later what inspired him to do so, he openly admitted that he felt that this may IMPRESS her and make her NOTICE him.

And I believe it is THIS incentive that encourages MOST if not ALL who speak in gibberish and call it tongues to DO SO. To FIT IN. To be NOTICED. And they find satisfaction in the 'game'. It makes them feel like: 'they belong'. And THAT is why they attempt to defend it so adamantly. Kind of like trying to tell the kid that goes to the movies every week end, NO MORE. They'll start kicking and screaming and making up all kinds of excuses of why they MUST continue or their lives will become USELESS.

Yet Paul says that: "When I BECAME A MAN, I put away childish things".

But notice this: "When I was a child I SPOKE AS A CHILD...........", yet so many seem OBLIVIOUS as to the REASON he mentions SPEAKING as a CHILD. Right in the middle of a discussion of tongues, he mentions SPEAKING AS A CHILD, and most that read it don't even GET IT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hillsage]

I am often approached by people who claim that they were "told by the Spirit" that their tongues were in Aramaic.

And I've had a lot of fundaMENTAL brethren tell me they were told that they had the Holy Spirit in them. I guess my point is I consider myself fundaSPIRITUAL for a reason. That reason being, their understanding and experience of scripture is not my understanding or experience. Though their experience WAS mine, for 6 months after getting 'born again', just like they were....and still are. But after 6 months something happened to me as it has to millions of others, and that's what separates us today.

To date, after about ~100 such examples, there has only been one positive, identified instance.

That instance, however, sounded suspiciously familiar -- and was actually a translation *I* did the previous year.

So, on top of the large number of people who weren't doing what they thought they were, there are folks out there who are willing to go to lengths to fake it convincingly.

Like I said earlier, I too judge spiritual things like tongues/prophecies in a service. Not to condemn the 'practice' but to discern if maybe these people are simply immature and yet "zealous for spiritual things"...as Paul said to Corinth.

But when I judge 'tongues/prophesies I don't do so with my MENTAL talent/ability of knowing 'a language' other than English. It's really too bad you don't know all the languages of earth and heaven before making your 'apparent judgment' that none of these people actually had a 'tongue' you might know nothing about. In other words, they might actually have a tongue which you just might be "ignorant" and "ungifted/unlearned" in, and are therefore lacking in the very spiritual ability which is needed, to judge correctly.

As an 'aside' it is indeed unfortunate that there are those who want to assure us how "prophecies/tongues" have ceased, and yet they always seem to forget something. In that very same verse, is the reason that the "ignorant" and "ungifted" ones are especially lacking concerning 'their' ability to correctly judge 'spiritual subjects', according to Paul. Prophesies and tongues which are very much 'alive today', in very many churches today, I might add. And the, very important weakness, they have is "imperfect knowledge"...because they're still fundaMENTAL...like I was for 6 months after getting born again/saved.

 

[SteveCaruso]

It's really too bad you don't know all the languages of earth and heaven before making your 'apparent judgment' that none of these people actually had a 'tongue' you might know nothing about. In other words, they might actually have a tongue which you just might be "ignorant" and "ungifted/unlearned" in, and are therefore lacking in the very spiritual ability which is needed, to judge correctly.

Not likely in these cases. These people who claimed that the Holy Spirit gave them the gift of tongues also claimed that the Holy Spirit also told them that their tongues were in Aramaic.

Zero of the cases of tongues I heard in this specific context were actually in Aramaic (sans that one individual who paid *me* to translate those phrases the prior year).

There were also a number of cases of automatic writing that were the same way. Nothing but scribbles.

 

[Hillsage]

Not likely in these cases. These people who claimed that the Holy Spirit gave them the gift of tongues also claimed that the Holy Spirit also told them that their tongues were in Aramaic.

Apples to apples then. The churches who told people they were born again also told them they had the Holy Spirit just like I did. So if you're assumption means both times were a lie, then my example would have to be true for both cases in my example also, based upon your own litmus. But personally I don't think all those who were told they got born again were indeed 'not so', based upon your premise. But then, neither do I believe that all those told they were born again were 'so', either.

Zero of the cases of tongues I heard in this specific context were actually in Aramaic (sans that one individual who paid *me* to translate those phrases the prior year).

Yes, I know, you said that earlier. Most suspicious sounding to me too, I must admit. Especially since I've spoken in tongues for 40 years and don't remember even one fellow Charismatic/Pentecostal ever saying they thought their tongue sounded like Aramaic or the Spirit told them so. Your Avatar pic makes you look pretty young and yet you've had a 100? Not saying "Spirit said" here, but my mental judgment sure says be suspicious of this.

There were also a number of cases of automatic writing that were the same way. Nothing but scribbles.

And 'we' Charismatic/Pentecostals are now implicated in that demonic activity also by you?

 

[SteveCaruso]

So if you're assumption means both times were a lie,

No, these individuals genuinely believed that they were speaking in Aramaic and that they were *told* by the Spirit that it was Aramaic. A lie requires the intent to deceive.

(The one exception was someone who was fooled by another, so they were not lying either.)

Your Avatar pic makes you look pretty young and yet you've had a 100? Not saying "Spirit said" here, but my mental judgment sure says be suspicious of this.

When you translate Aramaic languages professionally for ~15 years as I have, you deal with thousands and thousands of people from all traditions and walks of life for a variety of reasons.

And 'we' Charismatic/Pentecostals are now implicated in that demonic activity also by you?

I'm simply stating a correlation with similar phenomena that I have been invited to interpret. The automatic writing cases probably number about a dozen compared to the cases of "tongues."

 

[Hillsage]

No, these individuals genuinely believed that they were speaking in Aramaic and that they were *told* by the Spirit that it was Aramaic. A lie requires the intent to deceive.

(The one exception was someone who was fooled by another, so they were not lying either.)

Point being, both were a lie in your opinion and it matters not that they were fooled to believe. As in my example they all believed they were 'born again' and 'Spirit baptized'. And as I said neither 'case' was true for all.

When you translate Aramaic languages professionally for ~15 years as I have, you deal with thousands and thousands of people from all traditions and walks of life for a variety of reasons.

And yet, in 40 years I've never met ONE. Sorry your story just isn't credible to me.

I'm simply stating a correlation with similar phenomena that I have been invited to interpret. The automatic writing cases probably number about a dozen compared to the cases of "tongues."

You not answering my question.

 

[SteveCaruso]

Point being, both were a lie in your opinion

I'm fairly sure that you do not understand my opinion on this matter as you're persistently trying to pigeonhole it.

And yet, in 40 years I've never met ONE. Sorry your story just isn't credible to me.

If I was ever called upon to prove it in court (although why would be an odd situation) I have all of the correspondence on file, so your opinions of credibility aren't of terribly much concern.

You not answering my question.

Your question was loaded. To answer either "yes" or "no" assumes several things that I do not. Sort of like the classical example of "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Break it down into unloaded questions and I'll be more than happy to answer them.

 

[Imagican]

Hillsage,

Paul states that: "Where there are tongues, they shall CEASE".

When do YOU believe: "tongues shall cease?" What will be the REASON for them ceasing and when will that reason manifest itself?

I mean, you do acknowledge that there was a REASON Paul stated this, RIGHT? For the edification of those that would hear it/read it.

So what is the significance of Paul stating that 'tongues would cease'? What REASON would they cease and when would that reason become manifest? What TIME would 'tongues cease'?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hillsage]

I'm fairly sure that you do not understand my opinion on this matter as you're persistently trying to pigeonhole it.

This is a two way street then I guess. What exactly was 'bottom line' purpose of your first post. What does 'your experience' prove in regard to 'the gift of tongues' topic, of discussion?

I have all of the correspondence on file, so your opinions of credibility aren't of terribly much concern.

I looked at your profile and don't even see a 'testimony' as to you even having a basic born again spiritual experience. So your assurance of your credibility and 'files in your possession' is a concern to me. Whereas your credibility to me, and me to you, regarding this thread is truly of importance to both of us IMO. But we'll put that 'issue' aside then and go to what was your 'point' for initially posting here then. Was it that, the validity of biblical tongues, is never true today? Are you saying that your experience has disproven the validity of a biblical 'prayer tongue' from 'the spirit', of a believer who has had a Sspiritual experience beyond that of fundamental salvation?

Your question was loaded. To answer either "yes" or "no" assumes several things that I do not. Sort of like the classical example of "When did you stop beating your wife?"

It wasn't meant to be. It was simply meant for you to clearly declare whether you are beating up all those who speak in tongues today as being false based upon your experience?

Break it down into unloaded questions and I'll be more than happy to answer them.

Your brief mentioning this 'issue' was totally 'off topic' as well as opaque. So my question is, are you saying that every case of 'automatic hand writing' you looked at proves that 'the gift of tongues' is a false experience in the church today?

 

[Neochristian]

Here's the TRUTH so far as I'm concerned.

It is my FIRM belief that if the tongues I have witnessed being spoken, (gibberish), were HOLY or had anything to do with righteousness or anything 'Godly', why would God ALLOW me to be SO OBLIVIOUS to it's intent? Why would God ALLOW me to find it offensive to my very spirit or soul? That makes absolutely NO SENSE to me.

And all indications from those practicing 'tongues', (gibberish), is that I have YET to be born in the Spirit. And I find THAT accusation to be even MORE offensive.

It's like, "Either you BELIEVE it as WE do or you're NOT 'saved' and remain IGNORANT". Yet most of those with whom I've discussed the matter, to ME, are in general, VERY ignorant as to understanding the Bible.

From what I have witnessed, the Charismatic Movement appeals to those that are LOOKING for excitement and carnal PLEASURE in the manner in which they choose to worship. Their gatherings are more akin to the feeling involved with attending a circus rather than a 'church'. While I would encourage NEITHER, I believe that practically all the instruction offered by the Bible would favor being SERIOUS in the 'gathering' than acting like it's a Circus.

And having gotten to know a number of the members of 'a' particular Pentecostal Church that encouraged the practice of 'speaking in tongues', it was the same group of women each week who broke out, (at the SAME TIME), speaking in tongues. But the saddest part of getting to actually KNOW them, every one of them were either single, divorced or widowed and VERY VERY LONELY.

While one could SAY that this had no bearing, I BELIEVE that it did. They found that they could receive ATTENTION in the 'church' speaking in tongues, (gibberish), and otherwise would probably have been IGNORED. So their 'speaking in gibberish' allowed them to not only FIT IN, but to be LOOK upon by the other members as 'spirit filled'. Placing them in a position to find MUCH 'self edification'. In essence, to themselves, they became not only MEMBERS of the 'church', but kind of like the CO stars of the 'church'.

This is my interpretation of what I witnessed. I actually felt sorry for this group of women. For they were all over weight, over forty and seemingly had little interest in life in general. Yet when one of them 'started up', they all joined in EVERY WEEK. No interpreter. Just making strange sounding noises like they were in PAIN. And they were always the same one's to run up front for the ANOINTING so they could fall down.

I once spoke to the pastor after a service. I mentioned to him that Paul had laid out the RULES of tongues and in those rules, it was stated that IN THE CHURCH that those that would speak in tongues would do it IN ORDER. One, two, NO MORE than THREE in a gathering, BY COURSE, (in ORDER), and that there MUST be an interpreter. I said, there were a BUNCH of people speaking at the same time and there was NO 'interpreter'. His response was, "I know". He acknowledged that Paul's words existed and that he understood them, but offered no explanation whatsoever as to WHY he wasn't doing what he was able to teach them DIFFERENTLY. Later I found out that he was not REALLY a pastor other than his own intent. He was a music director at a church and basically got a significant number of the women from that church to follow him in forming his own. He later openly admitted that he had never read ALL of the Bible. Yet was attempting to LEAD a 'church'. And obviously he wasn't going to dissuade ANYONE from being a member by suggesting that they behavior was inappropriate.

Yep. Just ONE example. But one that was extreme enough for me to make a pretty good judgment of.

My wife's son was a member. A youth group went on a field trip to some 'religious festival', (don't recall the name), but while there, in order to impress a young girl he was interested in, he 'spoke in tongues'. When I asked him later what inspired him to do so, he openly admitted that he felt that this may IMPRESS her and make her NOTICE him.

And I believe it is THIS incentive that encourages MOST if not ALL who speak in gibberish and call it tongues to DO SO. To FIT IN. To be NOTICED. And they find satisfaction in the 'game'. It makes them feel like: 'they belong'. And THAT is why they attempt to defend it so adamantly. Kind of like trying to tell the kid that goes to the movies every week end, NO MORE. They'll start kicking and screaming and making up all kinds of excuses of why they MUST continue or their lives will become USELESS.

Yet Paul says that: "When I BECAME A MAN, I put away childish things".

But notice this: "When I was a child I SPOKE AS A CHILD...........", yet so many seem OBLIVIOUS as to the REASON he mentions SPEAKING as a CHILD. Right in the middle of a discussion of tongues, he mentions SPEAKING AS A CHILD, and most that read it don't even GET IT.

Blessings,

MEC

Thank you for sharing. I am in full agreement with what you say. These examples are most excellent. I only encourage you to remember that those people are sick, though I see nothing to suggest you need reminding. What do you think Talking in Tongues really is?

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage,

Paul states that: "Where there are tongues, they shall CEASE".

1CO 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

When do YOU believe: "tongues shall cease?" What will be the REASON for them ceasing and when will that reason manifest itself?

"when the perfect comes,"

I mean, you do acknowledge that there was a REASON Paul stated this, RIGHT? For the edification of those that would hear it/read it.

No, not "read for the edification of those hear/reading)" but for their 'imperfect knowledge', that they might really understand the 'edifying' purpose of the gift of supernatural tongues.

1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. To 'edify oneself'.
1CO 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. IOW tongues/interpretation = to prophesy and 'edifies the church'.
1CO 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Ditto, church edification.

So tell me Imagican have the earthly tongues/languages of men disappeared? After all, that's the only 'tongues' you want us to believe in concerning Corinth. IOW, according to you, our 'tongues' should have quit, but your 'tongues definition' still remains.

So what is the significance of Paul stating that 'tongues would cease'? What REASON would they cease and when would that reason become manifest? What TIME would 'tongues cease'?

When the edification of men and churches cease and we all have perfect knowledge and are 'known as you have been known' then there's probably no need for it.

And for you to say you don't need 'self edification' and also say we are selfish for self edification is so "ignorant" it simply keeps me from wanting to even try to discuss 'spiritual things' with you. So, I don't 'push the ignore' button, but you're pretty much in that category for me.

No response would be much appreciated though....not that I believe you're even able to do that.

 

[Butch5]

Bear with me here because I don't know if prayer tongues really is a gift of the Holy Spirit. I just know that the release of my spirit's language came after my baptism in the Holy Spirit experience in '72'. And I can definitely control my spirit's prayer language just like I control my soul's prayer language of English. But the 'gift of tongues' as listed in 1 Cor 12 is not talking about your spirit's prayer language which is for self-edification. It is talking about the Holy Spirit speaking through you as a yielded and obedient vessel who is speaking in faith, not for your edification but for those present.

I'm not sure where you're hung up so let me back up a bit and say this Butch; I believe we are triune beings; that being a spirit/soul/body. And many of us are able to 'communicate/pray/express' ourselves to God in all three of those 'parts' of our total being. My spirit has a prayer language, my soul prays in English and my body signs with raised hands, on bended knees, prostrate on the floor).
I'm sorry, did the spirit/soul/body explanation above help?

Please keep asking if I'm still falling short for you. And you're absolutely right about you and ME misunderstanding the passages. All I can say is this is the best understanding I have come to, and it lines up as much with my experience as anything else I've heard.

Hi Hillsage,

Thank you for the explanation. I thought that was what you meant but didn't want to assume. It seems we differ quite a bit. I don't believe it is taught in the Scriptures that man is a triune being. I believe man is a single, physical, being that has been given the breath of life from God, Gen 2:7. As I see it the only breath/spirit in man is the breath of life. A believer will receive the Holy Breath/Spirit. So, I don't see that there is a spirit that "is" man. The spirit in man is God's spirit. So, when I see in Scripture, the words "my spirit" I understand that the word "my" indicates possession, not identity. It seems many understand the words, "my spirit" to indicate "the real man". So, I don't see what would pray in tongues other than the Ho;y Breath/Spirit.

I also understand that the gift of tongues was a specific sign to unbelieving Israel that was prophesied in the OT. That purpose was realized.

 

[Albion]

As an 'aside' it is indeed unfortunate that there are those who want to assure us how "prophecies/tongues" have ceased, and yet they always seem to forget something. .

To be fair, the primary reason that they say tongues have ceased is because tongues did cease!

It's hard to argue that the absence of something is just an illusion, and this is why Pentecostals are forced to contend that some OTHER kinds of tongues didn't cease...or that maybe, just maybe, some few people hiding in a cave for a thousands years did actually keep speaking in tongues while the rest of society knew nothing of it...or else that the artificial re-introduction of tongues-speaking a couple of centuries ago by certain smallish Christian splinter groups somehow proves that tongues didn't cease.

 

[swordsman1]

No, not "read for the edification of those hear/reading)" but for their 'imperfect knowledge', that they might really understand the 'edifying' purpose of the gift of supernatural tongues.

1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

When Paul says that those who speak in unintelligible languages are only edifying themselves he is not complimenting them, but rebuking them. Why? Because spiritual gifts are meant to be for the benefit of others, never for self.

1 Peter 4:10 "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others"

1 Corinthians 12:7 "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."

All throughout his epistle Paul has been rebuking the Corinthians for their various errors (jealousy, quarreling, sexual immorality, lawsuits, abuse of the Lord’s table etc). And 1 Cor 14 is no different. He is criticising the Corinthians for misusing the gift of tongues because the words they were speaking were not understood (either by people of the native tongue being present or by the tongue being translated). Paul's criticism of unintelligible tongues comes through loud and clear throughout 1 Cor 14:

"if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you..."

"Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air."

"If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me."

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

"Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?"

"You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified."

"I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

"Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children."

"if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

This is why Paul introduces strict rules at the end of the chapter regarding the speaking of tongues to ensure it is understood.

 

[Hillsage]

Hi Hillsage,

Thank you for the explanation. I thought that was what you meant but didn't want to assume. It seems we differ quite a bit. I don't believe it is taught in the Scriptures that man is a triune being.

Hello Butch5,
'That' would certainly be a big stumbling block to understanding what I believe and have shared.

I believe man is a single, physical, being that has been given the breath of life from God, Gen 2:7.

We should discuss 2:7 then, because I think it has been understood incorrectly, for scripture defines us as triune in the following verses IMO.

1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What do you think of this scriptural separation of man?

So, I don't see that there is a spirit that "is" man. The spirit in man is God's spirit.

I'm not saying 'spirit is man' either. 'Man' is the sum total of the three in my view...I think.

So, when I see in Scripture, the words "my spirit" I understand that the word "my" indicates possession, not identity.

So you're saying, when you see capitalization of the words Holy and or Spirit, they don't designate any difference between the 'spirit of man' and the 'Spirit of God' to you. If I'm correct then; when Jesus said "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" you think He should have said "our spirit" or maybe "my Spirit"?

It seems many understand the words, "my spirit" to indicate "the real man". So, I don't see what would pray in tongues other than the Ho;y Breath/Spirit.

I do understand where you are coming then, with that belief system. But I think that when Paul said "this earthly tent/body that I/spirit live in" I believe he was identifying with that part of him which was made in the "image" of God which was 'spirit' since according to scripture "God is spirit". And 'that' verse was even written long after Jesus was resurrected, I might add.

I also understand that the gift of tongues was a specific sign to unbelieving Israel that was prophesied in the OT. That purpose was realized.

But Paul wasn't dealing with Israel, he was dealing with a church in Greece full of Gentile believers manifesting supernatural tongues within their congregations. And the implication for speaking to Israel may very well have been what happened when The Holy Spirit of God was manifesting the 'tongues of men' to those men, through uneducated fishermen. But they in no way were praying in the tongues of their spirit....from my point of view. So the OT prophesy may have been manifested, but that doesn't negate and individuals spirit tongue IMO. Hope that helped me answer your questions concerning my POV which is different than yours Bro.

 

[Hillsage]

To be fair, the primary reason that they say tongues have ceased is because tongues did cease!

What tongues ceased then Albion. Was it the tongues/languages of men, as Imagican has incessently argued to be the only 'tongues' in scripture? Or was it some other tongue? If so, then what tongue are YOU referring to?

 

[Albion]

What tongues ceased then Albion. Was it the tongues/languages of men, as Imagican has incessently argued to be the only 'tongues' in scripture? Or was it some other tongue? If so, then what tongue are YOU referring to?

unknown but actual languages.

 

[Hillsage]

When Paul says that those who speak in unintelligible languages are only edifying themselves he is not complimenting them, but rebuking them. Why? Because spiritual gifts are meant to be for the benefit of others, never for self.

First complete scriptural error;
JUD 1:20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;
If fundamental translators (too "ignorant/ungifted" to think there was anything they didn't already have) wouldn't have Capitalized here in this verse, guess whose spirit would have been holy because it was 'born anew'???? But even with their bad translating 'building yourself up' is BIBLE.

A better translation; CLT 20 Now you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in holy spirit,

1 Peter 4:10 "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others"

And I do, I build myself up that I am empowered to give to others 'that' which I have received FROM GOD in prayer. Since MY SPIRIT knows how to really pray for my needs (for self and others) unlike those who are ignorant and ungifted in that area, and therefore left up to their MENTAL acuity as to what their/others SPIRITUAL needs just might really be. Surprising 'things' have certainly popped into my head while praying in tongues for someone. Not things one even begins to 'think' about.

1 Corinthians 12:7 "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."

AGAIN you quote Cor12 appearing "ignorant" of the fact that there are TWO TONGUES from TWO spirits, ours and God's. AS I HAVE MENTIONED MANY TIMES BEFORE. And I don't manifest the chapter 12 'gift of Tongues' from "manifested by the Holy Spirit" to 'serve me', but to "serve others".

All throughout his epistle Paul has been rebuking the Corinthians for their various errors (jealousy, quarreling, sexual immorality, lawsuits, abuse of the Lord’s table etc). And 1 Cor 14 is no different. He is criticising the Corinthians for misusing the gift of tongues

And the very end of his rebuking is the exhortation to WHAT?
1CO 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;

So how's this exhortation working in your church....'don't forbid speaking Spanish'?

because the words they were speaking were not understood (either by people of the native tongue being present or by the tongue being translated). Paul's criticism of unintelligible tongues comes through loud and clear throughout 1 Cor 14:

"if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you..."
"Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air."
"If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me."
"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."

Note the last verse carefully. They were standing up in their immature spirituality and speaking in the tongue of their spirit for all the congregation to hear, thinking they are speaking the chapter 12 gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. They LIKE YOU don't know the difference between them. And your posts are proving it.

"Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?"

So, what you believe is; when I was in jail ministry and asked the Mexican to close in prayer I should have told him to quit speaking Spanish? No, I said amen, but I was always curious what the heck he prayed.

"You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified."

Yep proof positive I should have told him to speak English

"I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue."

e edified in spirit to be able to share English ministry with others.

"Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children."

"carnal minded" vs spiritually minded thinking. He couldn't address them as spiritually mature in their use of spiritual gifts. He wasn't negating the validity of supernatural gifts/tongues. He was rebuking misuse of 'spirit tongues' "which no man understands".

"if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues,...

Not much worry about that happening at your church I'm assume. My 'home church though'....

...and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Bad translation IMO, but even if it was right, why don't you do what it is exhorting you to do? "INQUIRE" about that which you don't have and "kick against the goads" so hard fighting against it?

This is why Paul introduces strict rules at the end of the chapter regarding the speaking of tongues to ensure it is understood.

and again I say Now if you only understood and rightly divided all Paul said, this verse and those rules would make a lot more sense, too.

Let's go back to "quit". Your posts take too long to answer and more posters is too much for me.....sorry.