The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[JulieB67]

I would love to have a civil discussion here among those who agree and those who disagree.

Hello

When taking the Bible as a whole, I certainly don't believe anyone will spend an eternity burning forever. But Christ I believe makes it pretty clear that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28, about not fearing the one that can kill our flesh body but rather fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in hell. I believe that's eternal destruction. But our Father is long suffering because he's not willing anyone should perish but would rather come to repentance. Repentance is the key. And UR is taking that out of the equation because if it were true the Lord would not have to be long suffering if everyone were to be saved in the long run. It wouldn't make sense and it doesn't coincide with his teachings.

 

[Der Alte]

Hello
When taking the Bible as a whole, I certainly don't believe anyone will spend an eternity burning forever. But Christ I believe makes it pretty clear that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28, about not fearing the one that can kill our flesh body but rather fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in hell. I believe that's eternal destruction. But our Father is long suffering because he's not willing anyone should perish but would rather come to repentance. Repentance is the key. And UR is taking that out of the equation because if it were true the Lord would not have to be long suffering if everyone were to be saved in the long run. It wouldn't make sense and it doesn't coincide with his teachings.

Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible

Matthew 25:5“Then, they will answer: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not help you?’
6Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 7These [ones on the left ][vs. 24:41] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

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[Samson2021]

Anybody want to account for 1 Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22-For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,
23-But EVERY MAN in his own order,
23- NLT But there is an order to this resurrection, Christ was raised as the first of the harvest, then all who belong to Christ will be raised when
He comes back.
Seems to me that death worked only too well and is still somewhat in charge today, However; the resurrection has an order and as the first 2 phases have been clearly put forth, why would it not continue to overcome death as death itself is the last enemy to be destroyed.
Meaning that death will have no dominion over any human any longer. Because ALL will have been made alive in Christ. The body Eph 2:14-16

 

[Samson2021]

This part is (apparently, but I don't recognize totally the source-purpose=intent),
true.
Death is the last enemy dealt with.
By then, according to all the Creator's Word, Purpose and Plan, all Those who are not in Christ are gone, never to be alive. Never to face death again because they are already forever dead.

Well not according to the eternal torment doctrines. They will never die but be eternally roasted. Made alive to roast???????
Doesn't make much sense does it?
Unless you take that scripture exactly as written, then ALL shall be made alive in Christ at some point in the future.
The question is when?
We also have to keep in mind that the OT generations have never had opportunity for salvation as that was not available until
after Jesus' crucifixion, so when do they get an opportunity to work it out like the elect have been doing for the last 2000 yrs?

Why did those that have died die? Sin. Who paid the price for the sin of the entire world? Jesus. So then the resurrection of
the dead comes through Jesus as the Father calls each person to life that was purchased by His sacrifice. Rom 5:18
Who did He pay the price for? ALL 1 Ti 2:6 Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. When is that time up?
When the last one enters into the life He purchased by giving Himself a ransom for.

 

[Samson2021]

So, if a person does not actively disbelieve in the gospel, then can they be saved? For example, the hundreds of millions of folks in China who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, nor ever will hear His name in their lifetime. If some, or any, of these folks can be saved, under what terms will they be saved?

Most likely the second or later dispensation of TIME.
There are truly few that rightly understand that all things will be gathered together in Christ, much less how and when.
The how is simple as salvation itself is a gift, and if God gave it to you He will continue to give it to all for free or else the ones
who have it will believe they did something to deserve it. Rom 3:22-23 states nobody deserves it, Believer or unbeliever.
The when is more difficult to answer but the second death is not the end of all things it is a reconstruction of what you see
today in the world. Satan, governments(the beast) religions (false prophet), death, the grave. All these things are here now
and are used for the first fruits perfecting. And they will be reassembled for the next group (second fruits) perfecting.

Another idea that should come to mind is how do we account for those that died prior to Jesus, they never had an opportunity
to work out their own salvation, much less ever heard about salvation. Can we account for that any other way than there being at
least one more TIME or AGE in which the working it out takes place for people like JTB, David, Adam, Eve, Isaiah, Obadiah, Micah,
Elijah, Solomon etc.... And those born during the Kingdom 1000yr reign as that is a Sabbath 1000yr time frame in which no one
will be born of the Spirit. No work done. And those alive at the end are deceived and consumed by fire from heaven.

Paul speaks to this briefly in Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of TIMES He might gather together in one(body)
all things in Christ(the body), both which are in heaven(the first fruits etc) and which are on earth(the last fruits), even in Him;
He reiterates the position in Eph 2:14-16 That all people, Jews and Gentiles are to be reconciled back to the Father through the
new man Christ. Jesus as the head, Chief cornerstone.

 

[Samson2021]

Oh well, no good came from reading the rest of the post.

Let me be blunt. Are you really born of the Spirit? Do you speak in tongues whenever you please? Has He ever sent you to do a work?
Cast out an unclean spirit? Any testimony?

 

[Samson2021]

Can anyone explain how God will not justify anyone for whom Jesus paid the atonement for?

As I see it in Rom 5:18 the justification unto life was paid for by the cross of Christ, therefore to withhold justification would be unjust.

 

[Fervent]

Can anyone explain how God will not justify anyone for whom Jesus paid the atonement for?

As I see it in Rom 5:18 the justification unto life was paid for by the cross of Christ, therefore to withhold justification would be unjust.

Justification is not all there is to salvation, justification is freely given to all but salvation must be received willingly.

 

[Samson2021]

Justification is not all there is to salvation, justification is freely given to all but salvation must be received willingly.

Support?

It is an election according to grace at this time. Paul would argue on the side of grace as he does in 1 Ti 1:13-14 Not on your
willingness to receive it. For ye are save by grace through faith and that(faith) is not of yourselves, it(faith) is the gift of God.

We who receive Christ receive of His fullness, Faith and Love. Not our own faith but His.

 

[Fervent]

Support?

It is an election according to grace at this time. Paul would argue on the side of grace as he does in 1 Ti 1:13-14 Not on your
willingness to receive it. For ye are save by grace through faith and that(faith) is not of yourselves, it(faith) is the gift of God.

We who receive Christ receive of His fullness, Faith and Love. Not our own faith but His.

Those verses don't contradict a need for receiving the gift. Grace and faith don't negate the action of the will, nor does a passive reception of the gift of salvation negate it being of grace and faith.

As for support of such a need, it's threaded throughout the whole Bible from Joshua presenting the choice to the Israelites to Paul declaring that salvation is for those who confess and believe to the Spirit and the bride saying "Come!" Justification is universally available, but salvation is about more than being justified.

 

[Samson2021]

Those verses don't contradict a need for receiving the gift. Grace and faith don't negate the action of the will, nor does a passive reception of the gift of salvation negate it being of grace and faith.

As for support of such a need, it's threaded throughout the whole Bible from Joshua presenting the choice to the Israelites to Paul declaring that salvation is for those who confess and believe to the Spirit and the bride saying "Come!" Justification is universally available, but salvation is about more than being justified.

I can agree with you on the one thing. Salvation itself must be worked out on an individual basis. However; initially you are bestowed
with faith and love that come from the fullness of Jesus Christ. That is the election process of God. Whomsoever He bestows those things
upon are the true believers from the heart. Rom 3:22 It's not a gift you have to pick up and say I picked it up therefore I did something
to accept the gift. It is the circumcision of the heart done by the Father. You can't do that nor can you bestow the faith upon yourself.
If you were able to have anything to do with the initial gift of salvation then you would have a right to boast, but that is not the case.

This is what Paul spoke to in 1 Ti 1:13-14 He was a blasphemer etc.. persecuting the Ekklesia and even on his way to arrest more when
his time of visitation came. He at that time was not a believer, but he had heard the gospel, therefore was betrothed whether he knew
that or not, his infilling of faith and love came at the time appointed of the Father. Did he then start to work out his own salvation? Yes
And that comes over much time as we apprehend what we have been apprehended for.
When we are given life to have within ourselves (born of the Spirit) we are empowered to become a son of God. The apprehending
of what needs be done to accomplish that goal is why the Holy Ghost is given as a guide. He is a birth right gift-guide. We can
choose to neglect this gift or we can follow along and be separated from the world religions esp organized Christianity but it will
come with a cost. The groups of today have a set of doctrines that they will defend unto death especially yours, and if you present
what the Holy Ghost has taught you, you will be excommunicated, tossed out, barred form coming back etc.... seen as an outcast.
Why? Because they are deceived and love the praise of men and money, more than the praise of the Father.

Justification unto life was accomplished for you at the cross of Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 That means that once His faith and love reside
in you, you are born of the spirit, called of God to begin becoming a son. That call and gift is something the Father will never
repent of. Rom 11:29 The issue at hand is now we have one who is born of the Spirit that will never be removed from the Spirit
but must eventually become what he/she was predestined to become-a son. How long that takes is the individual race that each
elect must run. Working it out.

 

[Fervent]

I can agree with you on the one thing. Salvation itself must be worked out on an individual basis. However; initially you are bestowed
with faith and love that come from the fullness of Jesus Christ. That is the election process of God. Whomsoever He bestows those things
upon are the true believers from the heart. Rom 3:22 It's not a gift you have to pick up and say I picked it up therefore I did something
to accept the gift. It is the circumcision of the heart done by the Father. You can't do that nor can you bestow the faith upon yourself.
If you were able to have anything to do with the initial gift of salvation then you would have a right to boast, but that is not the case.

I'm familiar with this sort of reasoning, but it's not true. There's no ability to boast in receiving a gift, it remains charity. A beggar who accepts a meal remains a beggar even after accepting the meal and has nothing to boast over the one who refuses the meal.

This is what Paul spoke to in 1 Ti 1:13-14 He was a blasphemer etc.. persecuting the Ekklesia and even on his way to arrest more when
his time of visitation came. He at that time was not a believer, but he had heard the gospel, therefore was betrothed whether he knew
that or not, his infilling of faith and love came at the time appointed of the Father. Did he then start to work out his own salvation? Yes
And that comes over much time as we apprehend what we have been apprehended for.
When we are given life to have within ourselves (born of the Spirit) we are empowered to become a son of God. The apprehending
of what needs be done to accomplish that goal is why the Holy Ghost is given as a guide. He is a birth right gift-guide. We can
choose to neglect this gift or we can follow along and be separated from the world religions esp organized Christianity but it will
come with a cost. The groups of today have a set of doctrines that they will defend unto death especially yours, and if you present
what the Holy Ghost has taught you, you will be excommunicated, tossed out, barred form coming back etc.... seen as an outcast.
Why? Because they are deceived and love the praise of men and money, more than the praise of the Father.

While Paul was confronted in an exceptional way, he still made a choice to heed the message he received. God may choose to give some a fuller revelation, but it remains on the one being confronted to accept what they have been shown. Paul is not arguing against free will in 1 Ti, and it is a twisting of the Scripture to argue as much.

Justification unto life was accomplished for you at the cross of Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 That means that once His faith and love reside
in you, you are born of the spirit, called of God to begin becoming a son. That call and gift is something the Father will never
repent of. Rom 11:29 The issue at hand is now we have one who is born of the Spirit that will never be removed from the Spirit
but must eventually become what he/she was predestined to become-a son. How long that takes is the individual race that each
elect must run. Working it out.

Again, justification is not all there is to salvation. The door is open to all, the call has gone out to all, but not all will receive the gift. Though God will deny none, many will still choose to refuse what has been made available to them.

 

[returntosender]

Nah. I refuse to be ignored, dismissed out of hand and, ultimately, denigrated again and again by anyone who claims to have "special interpretive keys" to the Kingdom (of WHATEVER sort).

I'll just say, peace be to you! See you on the other side.

That's confusing, why would you see him on the other side since it seems you disagree with his beliefs or am i reading you wrong. I don't believe the unis destination is the same as Christians.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's confusing, why would you see him on the other side since it seems you disagree with his beliefs or am i reading you wrong. I don't believe the unis destination is the same as Christians.

It's simple. Despite whatever differences in theological outlook I may have with Universalist Christians, I don't see them as deviating from Orthodoxy in the same way or to the same degree that say, Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses do. So, I don't preclude Universalists from the Trinitarian Fold of Faith.

 

[Jipsah]

Heresy.

The poster, or St. Paul?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Thank you for the welcome and for your thoughtful reply. As to your first question, yes: Luke 3:5-6; Luke 16:16; John 12:32; Acts 3:19-21; Romans 5:15,18; Romans 11:32; I Corinthians 15:22,28; Ephesians 1:7-10; Colossians 1:19-20; I Timothy 4:10; I John 2:2. These are just a few.

I think it is much easier and faithful to the original languages to interpret seemingly exclusivist passages such as Matthew 25:44-46 in light of the plainly universalist passages rather than the other way around, and for one very simply reason. The words translated in Matthew as "everlasting" and "eternal" did not mean infinite to the ancient Greeks in the way we moderns think. There were Greek words that could have been used for eternal if that's what the author wanted, but he did not use them. Aion and aionios are for a period with a beginning and an end. They never denoted unending, and are the equivalent of the Hebrew, olam. Sadly, the Latin translations inserted the connotation of "eternal" for aion and aionios, which is simply incorrect and certainly regrettable.

However, there are no issues when it comes to the translation of the universalist passages. They are plain in Greek and English. I know it is difficult to step back a read certain passages again with fresh eyes when you have heard them translated and interpretated a certain way for years and years. But that's what I had to do, and what a lot of people must do with these passages to get to the truth of the matter.

Peace,
Daniel

Hello, firstly I do not believe in Universalism or the eventual salvation of all men. I can be spiritually dangerous for a sinner who rebels against God to think he will eventually be in glory even if he did not believe the gospel and continues in his sin hardened and hated God. This would make God force them into glory and not require repentance and belief. This would make the many words of Jesus, the prophets, and apostles have no meaning in many verses and confound the doctrines.

Secondly however, I can see how some might interpret certain verses to think that all will eventually be saved. I do say that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and made it possible for all men to be saved. That alone is not agreed upon by the Calvinist and others. But scripture is clear that Christ died for the sin of the whole world and not just the world of believers.

But I also have another understanding about the salvation of all men that extends to infants. This one may answer some of the verses that you and others might take as all being saved eventually. Then when you use verses like theses

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10 KJV)

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Consider in these type of verses that infants and young children before the "age of accountability" or before they hate the light are saved by the grace of Christ. But when they have "sin revive " (Romans 7:9 KJV), Then they are no longer spiritually alive and die spiritually and need to repent, which not all will do and many will never have the fire quenched and end up in the lake of fire. We see Paul here shows that he was alive once then sin revived and he died

“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9 KJV)

Notice that he was alive in the context without the law once.This being "alive" once, in context cannot mean physical life here, for he said then he died. That death must be spiritual death. The law then would come to his understanding or he would have the light shine in him and then he would be accountable when he understood this/ For where no law is there is no transgression and sin s not imputed where there s no law. So for Paul to say he was alive once without the law and then he died. We know that Jesus blessed the infants brought to him and said of young children of such is the kingdom of God and their angels do always behold the Father.

Can any imagine a one day old infant dying and standing before God and God saying "away from me, all ye that work iniquity"? I cannot. I believe the children have a sin nature and need a saviour as all men do. But that sin nature is in a dormant state and not active or "alive" until sin revives.

So in this light when we read verses that the free gift came upon all men unto Justification through the work of Jesus Christ in time and he is the saviour of all men, especially them that believe. This could possibly answer the issue here. Infants would be spiritually saved by Christ work and the free gift of the Light given to ever man which is the seed sown, Christ is for their justification. But when sin revives and they die they need to be born again or they will never escape the fire in the end and will be judged.

Children, or specifically one day old infants salvation is rarely spoken of in many discussions, Scripture does speak of this.

So in this way all would be saved at one time by the grace of Christ as a one day old infant. or even more so in the womb, then when they hate the light they will be condemned. remember jesus said the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light and not before. his also rebukes the false Calvinistic view that men are predestined to be saved as individuals and predestined to be damned and that they damned never had a chance for salvation.

Also, when you say eternal and everlasting fore does not men endless fire forever. This is also not accurate. We read of another word used for the endless fire, consider,

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:” (Nark 9:43 KJV)

never to be quenched - ἄσβεστος ásbestos, as'-bes-tos; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G4570; not extinguished, i.e. (by implication) perpetual:—not to be quenched, unquenchable.

and "ever"

ever -נֶצַח netsach, neh'-tsakh; or נֵצַח nêtsach; from H5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view):—alway(-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever(more), perpetual, strength, victory.

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:10 KJV)


It shall not be quenched -כָּבָה kâbâh, kaw-baw'; a primitive root; to expire or (causatively) to extinguish (fire, light, anger):—go (put) out, quench.