The Administration Of Tongues

[TheBarrd]

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not to argue with you, Hillside, but did you catch that?

There is only one Lord.
There is only one faith.
And my friend, there is only one baptism.

If the Bible says that there is only one baptism, then there isn't a separate baptism in which one receives the HS. No "baptism in the spirit."

 

[Hillsage]

its linear in the sense that it assumes that it is not of the Spirit when our own language comes out your mouth .. sure if we premeditate what we are about to say..its us ..OR its inspired of the Holy Spirit .. but when it just flows from us .. it can be of the "in" the spirit the same as an unknown tongue .. lets not limit the lord .

If we premeditate OR are inspired then it is not the same as spontaneously speaking as the Spirit 'leads' IMO. We may just have to differ. Unless maybe you can maybe back this with scripture then I'm still not sure I am 'limiting the Lord'. I think I'm elevating a supernatural gift from the Lord and the Spirit that most of the church doesn't have IMO. I might not go as high as 90-95% though. That's good...right?

One time recently the lord showed me as i prayed in tongues that in a single sentence the spirit was interceding for a number of differing things in different places and differing languages simultaneously .this is hardly a difficult thing for the Holy Spirit to do seeing that he is already omnipotent and omnipresent .

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. It has happened many times. And I think it is substantiated with scripture in 'principle' when Paul said to "pray that you might interpret".

its only a thought to consider (not a doctrine ,don't get me wrong ) but also when he tells us in the bible that when we speak in tongues we speak mysteries .. it does not necessarily mean only that it's a mystery because we do not know what we speak.. but it's a mystery also because we do not comprehend the unlimited scope of the power of the holy Spirit by whom we speak .

Now are you saying the unlimited scope of our holy spirit, or the Holy Spirit...and just didn't capitalize? That would make a difference IMO. Because you're right I don't know what power 'my holy spirit' really has I suppose.

sorry i didnt mean to argue with you .. just expressing a point of view that attempts to allow for the truth that God- is without limitation [/QUOTE]
OK, no more 'arguing' from now on we'll just call it 'serious discussing'.....

 

[Hillsage]

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not to argue with you, Hillside, but did you catch that?

There is only one Lord.
There is only one faith.
And my friend, there is only one baptism.

If the Bible says that there is only one baptism, then there isn't a separate baptism in which one receives the HS. No "baptism in the spirit."

Barrd, I don't know these techy things too well for sure, but I've been told that big bold type is kinda equal to YELLING at someone. Which is OK as long as you aren't really embarrassing yourself because you don't understand scripture as well as you think you do.

Go read post #2 from me on the "Born of water and the Spirit" thread. Then come back and see if you might not have a 'question' instead of a bit of an "immature/imperfect" 'statement' based upon a fundamental orthodox belief...spiritually speaking. Since you already know if I have a fault it's 'King of unorthodox beliefs'.....

 

[TheBarrd]

Barrd, I don't know these techy things too well for sure, but I've been told that big bold type is kinda equal to YELLING at someone. Which is OK as long as you aren't really embarrassing yourself because you don't understand scripture as well as you think you do.

Go read post #2 from me on the "Born of water and the Spirit" thread. Then come back and see if you might not have a 'question' instead of a myopic 'statement' based upon a weak orthodox belief...spiritually speaking. Since you already know if I have a fault it's 'King of unorthodox beliefs'.....

I was told that using all caps was yelling....and I always post from the Bible that way. If it's the words of Christ, I'll post it in red.
Now, why would I put some post of yours before the Word of God?
It very plainly says that there is but one Baptism...why would I not believe that? I know that everyone who is baptized receives the HS...there is no such thing as a baptized Christian who has not received it.
However, because I do want to be friends, I will look at your post, if I can find that thread.

 

[Alithis]

If we premeditate OR are inspired then it is not the same as spontaneously speaking as the Spirit 'leads' IMO. We may just have to differ. Unless maybe you can maybe back this with scripture then I'm still not sure I am 'limiting the Lord'. I think I'm elevating a supernatural gift from the Lord and the Spirit that most of the church doesn't have IMO. I might not go as high as 90-95% though. That's good...right?

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. It has happened many times. And I think it is substantiated with scripture in 'principle' when Paul said to "pray that you might interpret".

Now are you saying the unlimited scope of our holy spirit, or the Holy Spirit...and just didn't capitalize? That would make a difference IMO. Because you're right I don't know what power 'my holy spirit' really has I suppose.

sorry i didnt mean to argue with you .. just expressing a point of view that attempts to allow for the truth that God- is without limitation

OK, no more 'arguing' from now on we'll just call it 'serious discussing'.....[/QUOTE]
when i speak of the Holy spirit i speak of the holy spirit ..not my spirit . folks get all too tangled up over that..i don't think much about it . i just trust God .

 

[Imagican]

You’re certainly right and considering there are reportedly 500 million Pentecostals and charismatics across virtually every denomination and country then why should we be surprised. Then we have the well-intended opinions, where we have developed less than perfect doctrines and practices; of course there is the outright abuse and deception as well. Of course I could very easily be summarising Paul’s letters to the various churches that he planted and then there’s the hard-core cessationist elements.

In Paul's letters he makes it perfectly CLEAR that 'tongues', other than those spoken as the Spirit gives utterance, can ONLY produce SELF edification. And he goes on to DISCOURAGE seeking self edification and IMPLORES the 'church' to seek that which brings edification to the BODY. So in essence, you are attempting to alter what was actually offered by Paul.

As for those whom you’ve met that have claimed that they were faking tongues, you must be well travelled as my 40 years in Pentecostal and charismatic circles from memory, has only produced one very embarrassed and frustrated Spanish speaking Bible college student who sang in Spanish during times of free praise and worship. Now to his credit, he wasn’t claiming that he was singing in tongues so he probably wasn’t doing anything wrong. Hopefully he eventually got over his emotional blockage where he could eventually pray in tongues. I have certainly met some new and inexperienced Christians who have wondered if they were speaking in tongues or in human syllables but these people tend to quickly sort themselves out. There are certainly a few who might ‘try and help the Spirit’ by saying things such as ‘i-am-a-honda’ over and over but these but these people are also quickly encouraged/counselled to stop getting in the way of the Spirit.

My stepson was involved with a Pentecostal 'church' and had a crush on one of the other teens. They all went to some 'gathering', if I remember properly it was called, "Brownsville". Upon their return it was announced that he had received the Spirit and had spoken in tongues. A short time later it became apparent that the little girl, (she was fifteen), he had a crush on obviously had a crush on someone else and was PREGNANT. After this became obvious, (and let me note that this girl and her mother spoke in tongues at EVERY meeting of the 'church'. Totally ignoring the rules of speaking in tongues as laid out by Paul), my stepson later admitted that his moment of being BAPTIZED in the Spirit and speaking in tongues was nothing other than an attempt to impress the others. He openly and precisely admitted that what happened was TOTALLY fabricated for the sake of trying to impress those that had been led to BELIEVE that 'speaking in gibberish' is some sort of 'sign of being Baptized in the Spirit'. I have read books written by members of some pretty famous evangelists OPENLY admitting that they witnessed outright deception so far as healing and people 'falling down', (slain in the Spirit. which is COMPLETELY UN-BIBLICAL). I tend to believe those that ADMIT that it's as FAKE as it LOOKS than those that ACT like they are POOR ACTORS insisting that it's REAL.

I was a magician for quite a few years. Started when I was about eight and continued up in to my thirties. Performing professionally at times. I STUDIED magic for years. I have a literal LIBRARY of books on magic. From the history of magic and magicians to Biographies including EVERY subject that is even remotely associated with magic. Mediums, mind magic, psychics, even a number of books directly dealing with the DARK ARTS, (what some would call Black Magic).

While the Bible speaks specifically about familiar spirits, and other aspects of the OCCULT, when it is mentioned, it is mentioned in reference to SATAN, not The Holy Spirit.

As the books that I possess offer, 100 percent of practicing being a medium or psychic is PRACTICE. Leaning how to TRICK people into believing JUST LIKE MAGIC.

Houdini offered a 10,000.00 prize to ANYONE that could produce a MYSTIC effect so far as psychic event or as a medium that he couldn't show how it was done through FAKERY. NO ONE ever collected. Quite a few of the most famous psychics of the time TRIED, but failed. He PROVED they were ALL FAKES.

My point in all of this? That throughout history, it is OBVIOUS that there have been many many many many that FAKED things that others ended up BELIEVING. And the ONLY evidence that I have EVER found from those that believe in tongues and falling down by being slain in The Spirit, is THEIR WORD and ACTIONS. And their actions I could SURELY fake as well or better than MOST.

And then let's turn to the BIBLE. We'll get to that.......


And we also have the many thousands of testimonies from both cessationists and ex-cessationists who have said that their congregations have used either coercion or even threats if they move into the things of the Spirit, or we're they dare go outside of their circles for prayer over some sickness; does this mean that all cessationists employ coercion or threats?

I've NEVER threatened anyone. I have simply tried to point out the TRUTH.


You definitely have yourself in a bit of a self-induced cessationist bind as we are also warned against false teachers, so you should probably avoid any churches that contain teachers or for that matter who even teach; and it goes on and on where the only safe option is to stay home and lock our doors. Keep to the Word, it’s the only safe option.

That is an utterly ridiculous concept. What one NEEDS to DO is learn what is offered in SCRIPTURE FIRST and then they KNOW if what is happening in their 'church' is the TRUTH or.........'something else'. The problem is that most are way too LAZY and would rather place their faith in a BUILDING and it's pastor than learn anything on their own.


Maybe you should broaden your horizons a bit more.

Ah, maybe like: Do what thou wilt shall be ALL THE LAW? Or maybe a bit of freedom to ignore the truth? If anything, I would suggest to any that would proclaim to be Spiritual in the LEAST to LESSEN their horizons rather than broaden them. "Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto life and FEW there be that FIND IT". So you see, the Bible would indicate that instead of 'broadening our horizons' as you suggest, NARROWING our horizons would be the ONLY means of following a NARROW path.

When I gave my heart to the Lord I was only a teenager where my foundations were within a cessationist congregation, not that I understood much of this at the time but I did start to notice that even though there were some very nice people in my circles, there were many not so nice people and in my opinion some very cold and very un-nice people. This was before satellite news and the Internet (but post-colour TV) so it wasn’t so easy to see what was happening around the world; this meant that the only contrast to what I was seeing around me was in the Word. I started to notice an ‘apparent’ discrepancy between what was seeing in my circles with what happened back in the so called Bible days. Anyway, once I left school I encountered some charismatics where I quickly met hundreds of people who had a fervency for the Lord that I had not seen before along with a huge amount of nice people, and of course, I still came across some not so nice people – but such is life.

See, YOU say 'fervency for the Lord'. I would offer that being passionate about one's worship doesn't always equate with 'the Lord' so far as the TRUE Lord and Son of God. One can call ANYTHING Jesus or Christ. Heck. We've seen the likes of Jones and others able to convince THOUSANDS to follow their FALSE teachings. And the WHOLE time I'll bet there were members saying EXACTLY what you just said: "This GROUP was MORE passionate in their faith than any I had EVER encountered". For that what CULTS do. They teach their followers to get SO caught up in the EMOTIONAL aspects they don't even question the validity. You have NO MORE evidence or proof that those to whom you've referred we truly worshiping Christ than I do. But I would be willing to BET that had I been WITH you at the time, I could have clearly shown you that they were NOT following Biblical instruction if they were speaking in tongues and barking like dogs and flopping around on the ground.

So my point is that we need to avoid looking at the world around us and keep to the Word. When I consider the constant troubles that Paul went through with the churches of his day, he could probably be forgiven if he wanted to go and live in a secluded cave with a Do Not Enter sign on his door.

Those that speak in gibberish and insist that it is the tongues of the Bible are forced to utterly IGNORE scripture in context in order to try and TWIST it into meaning just the opposite of what was actually offered.

There is NO 'angelic language'. Paul NEVER even indicated such. It is stated VOICE of angels. VOICE is NOT language. VOICE is merely the SOUND of one's SPEECH. Not the SPEECH itself.

While there may well be 'some spirit' that leads or influences men to speak in gibberish that makes them FEEL GOOD, gibberish is NOT the 'tongues' spoken of in the Bible. Tongues are in reference to LANGUAGES, not NOISE. And Paul plainly points out that making noises that cannot be understood is FRUITLESS. May as well be speaking to a 'god of the air'.

But I have witnessed what I would consider TRUE tongues that sounds like 'gibberish'. And anyone else can witness it as well now that we have the internet.

Voodoo rituals and ceremonies. When members are TAKEN OVER by 'spirits', they make NOISES that sound JUST LIKE those that supposedly 'speak in tongues'. They shake and shimmy, fall down and flop around. But they don't try and associate their actions with THE HOLY SPIRIT. They openly admit that it's DEMONS or UNHOLY spirits that possess them.

And in this country, the association with slaves from Africa with ROOTS in voodoo and a combination of the TWO different religions: Christianity and VOODOO that may well have had the LARGEST impact on the charismatic movement of any other influence. In rural communities blacks and whites often congregated together. And almost EVERY aspect of the charismatic movement is a MIRROR to Voodoo. Falling down, flopping around, making animal noises and speaking gibberish are ALL acts that take place in Voodoo ceremonies and rituals.

Regardless of it's source, one must go out of their way and TWIST scripture to make it fit into Christianity.

Tongues are LANGUAGES in every USE of the term in the Bible. Gibberish that cannot be understood by the person uttering it or those hearing it is NOT 'a language'. And I can't argue one way or the other so far as how it makes those that believe in it FEEL when doing it. But I KNOW this, when I hear it or experience those that practice it, I get a really NEGATIVE vibe JUST like watching a VOODOO ceremony.

What a STRANGE 'Holy Spirit' that would make me FEEL like it's WRONG if it is truly RIGHTEOUS.

And I have confronted those that TEACH others to practice tongues. And what they ALWAYS fall back on is this: "How were YOU raised Mike?" My mother was a Southern Baptist and my father a Methodist. "See, that's why you don't understand it. You weren't RAISED that way."

A perfectly clear admittance that it's LEARNED behavior. And you CANNOT learn something that only exists AS THE SPIRIT GIVES UTTERANCE.

And why doesn't the ENTIRE Body of Christ SPEAK GIBBERISH and call it tongues? See, you would offer that YOUR group is the ONLY group of HUMANS that has TRULY been 'saved'. ALL the rest that deny what YOU practice are LOST and living OUTSIDE of the Holy Spirit.

I would offer that the shear fact that this 'charismatic movement' is growing FASTER than any other denomination is a PURE indication of it's validity.

We are INSTRUCTED that before Christ's return there would be a FALLING AWAY first. So ANY denomination TODAY that is GROWING is one to RUN FROM, not TOWARDS.



The more knowledgeable Pentecostal or charismatic would know that when the Spirit prays through us within the congregational setting or during times of private prayer that he does not ever do so in a known human language. Now even though my tongue sounds similar (and only similar) to French I know full well that it is not a human language, where scholars will often say that tongues is “language-like but not language”.

Scholars? Those that practice speaking in tongues? Jeez, ask a crack head about smoking crack and you might end up being one right along with them.

In other words, if you place your faith in what men are willing to TEACH you, you could end up believing ANYTHING.

Why not RELY on the Bible as the SOURCE of understanding concerning our FAITH? That would seem to be the most PROPER manner of LEARNING the truth.

Paul himself has been very careful to never equate tongues with human languages which is evidenced by his use of “species of tongues” (1Cor 12:10) and in 13:1 he carefully describes how he speaks in both a human tongue and an angelic tongue where he employs γλῶσσα glossa and not the Greek διάλεκτος dialektos for this purpose, as Luke did in Acts 2:8 where the spokesman for the crowd said “we hear them in our own (dialektos) languages”.

Ah here we go again. The 47 scholars, (which you seem to respect the word), that spent seven years translating the Bible from Greek to English didn't have a CLUE. They spoke FLUENT Greek but didn't know that the word meant 'gibberish' or even TONGUES. This verse uses the word VOICE, not language or tongues or even speech. VOICE is the ABILITY or MEANS by which we speak, not tongue or language.


As everyone always has full control of their faculties and emotions then what you are witnessing is obviously hype and foolish emotion, which is often produced for the likes of “GOD”TV; they know that this will sadly attract the less astute Pentecostal and charismatic – and yes, they are among us.



May I suggest that you avoid Youtube (along with the erratic antics of the various Todd Bentley’s) and allow yourself to experience the harmonious and joyful praise of Christians in a prayer-group; now that’s generally something to behold!

Been there and done that. Scares the, well it scares me to even be in the same room.

Now WHY would God do that to one of His children? When in the presence of those HOLIER than himself, cause him to be SCARED? You would think that God would do whatever He could to ENCOURAGE me to dwell among those HOLIER than myself.


I agree, as do countless millions of others.

What if it was BILLIONS? Your numbers themselves speak VOLUMES as to the validity of this 'movement'.


These stories tend to bemuse me, by the way, did their heads spin around and around while smoke was pouring out of their ears? I did see this on in a movie once so I was wondering if we’re talking about the same movie.

Nope, they just acted like and behaved JUST like those over in Africa practicing VOODOO.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and my use of capital letters is for emphasis. Not a 'screamer'. And I certainly don't adhere to everyone else ideas about what everything HAS to mean. I am ME. Just a simple man and I type REALLY REALLY fast.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Hey Biblicist,

Perhaps you can clear up something that has yet to be addressed in any manner discernible to ME:

What does this mean:

Tongues are for a SIGN, not to them that BELIEVE, but to them that believe NOT.

Now, the ONLY way you can offer ANYTHING that makes any sense is to offer it IN CONTEXT.

Paul has already offered that if a NON believer were to enter a 'church' and witness people speaking in GIBBERISH they would think those speaking in such a manner BARBARIANS. I think that it's pretty obvious Paul IS NOT trying to encourage the 'church' to appear AS BARBARIANS.

So, IN context, what is Paul saying when he offers that 'tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT.

I can't wait to hear your response.

Addition: Was very busy yesterday and usually don't offer responses without the proper time to sit down and take the time to proof read and re read BEFORE posting. I was in a hurry to get out a WHOLE BUNCH of information and ended up making a mess. This message was meant for Biblicist, not Barrd.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[TheBarrd]

Barrd, I don't know these techy things too well for sure, but I've been told that big bold type is kinda equal to YELLING at someone. Which is OK as long as you aren't really embarrassing yourself because you don't understand scripture as well as you think you do.

Go read post #2 from me on the "Born of water and the Spirit" thread. Then come back and see if you might not have a 'question' instead of a bit of an "immature/imperfect" 'statement' based upon a fundamental orthodox belief...spiritually speaking. Since you already know if I have a fault it's 'King of unorthodox beliefs'.....

Okay... I found the thread and your post.
I think you may have misread the verse you quoted...

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Look again at that first verse. I bolded in just one word for you, because I think you may have missed it. The passage says that we need not lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptism, and of the laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
This foundation has already been laid, we must now build on it, if God permit.
But there is no point in laying this foundation again, for it is impossible for this who have fallen away to be renewed again unto repentance, seeing that they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh...

In other words, this passage is not talking about multiple baptisms. Just the opposite...if the one didn't take, there is no laying a new foundation...

Next you talk about spora and sperma and compare the new birth to the conception of Jesus in Mary's womb...

Now, this is not saying that I do not believe in the Holy Spirit, or Spiritual gifts, or miracles...as I told you before, I have experienced a real miracle.
I just think there is some confusion.

Hillsage, have you ever heard the voice of God?

 

[Hillsage]

I can only speak of that which I have actually seen and heard. I've spoken to several people who have been on Benny Hinn's television show, for instance...people who were paid to help him put on his "miracles".

And I ran around with, and did homeless people ministry in Denver a couple years back, with a guy who had been a guard at one of his crusades. He saw and experienced 'the real'. And I've talked to two people from my church who went to a crusade. One was slain 'in masse' and the other got healed. I believe them.

So much fakery going on that it is hard to tell who is for real!
Does that mean I don't believe that there are real miracles? Not only do I believe it, I have experienced it. I was mauled by a dog, and bleeding out...should be dead right now...but God sent an angel to me. Maybe one day I'll tell you the whole story.

Having the baptism of the Holy Spirit helps discern the real. And given how you feel about the Holy Spirit in these type things, maybe I shouldn't believe your story either. Ouch.

I believe that every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. But most of them do not speak in tongues. That doesn't mean that they don't have other abilities, however.

Quite frankly, I believe with all of my soul that God has given me a talent to write.

Quite frankly I believe the Holy Spirit has taught me the difference between spiritual gifts and soulish talents too.

Don't assume, Hillsage. First of all, you don't know me well enough for that.

Well, there goes your logic again. Tell me not to assume because I don't know you. OK, I'll just base my thoughts/comments on the facts....Wait I don't have any facts do I? Dang I guess we're...back to assuming again. Aren't WE?

I do hope we will get to be friends, though.

Can't prove that by the way most of your posts make me 'feel'. BOTH for myself as well as other Charis/Pente brethren here. Believe it or not, I was just about to come back to this thread and refuse to even talk to 'you guys' since I respect what I've read from Biblicist and felt like just talking to him was taking too much time. And then you address me with your "I like your name" post. Barrd, that truly floored me.

Don't mock, Hillsage. My friends are dead.
And those people who end up screaming in rage? Do you not wonder at that? Is that from God, do you think?
And some of them stay angry, even after the episode. Nice, normal people, changed into raging...well, demons.

Now it is you who is assuming. When I said 'bad spirit' I truly mean that. I was in the deliverance ministry for 2 years. I've seen things that scared 'big Christian talkers' in a church that believed 'they' should have been ministering with me too.

No one is doubting that our Heavenly Father does give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. The question is, why must so many people make believe? What are they trying to prove?

Because that is what the immature church does IMO. They all either want to make you think that they are 'spiritual' when they aren't. Your side is just as guilty IMO.

I don't have any idea who Bullinger is,nor do I particularly care.

Then don't expect to understand my position. I've been quoting him all along.

I have one teacher. He is all I need.

Apparently God has made you much better in your eyes, than I believe he has made me then. Because I got stuff you don't and I need stuff you 'believe' you don't too.

I think the gift of TEACHER in the fivefold ministry is for all the church to mature. Maybe you just biblically diagnosed the reason for your own lack of understanding concerning the things we do claim understanding and experience of.

Bullinger again. Whoever this guy is, he seems to be important to you. Why?

ministry gift of teaching IMO.

Also, are you saying that only "crazimatics" can say "Jesus is Lord"? I say it all the time...and I have never spoken in tongues, nor am I particularly eager for that gift.

I'm saying it plainly.and supporting it with scripture IMO. And don't people say "I am a Christian" all the time, too. Saying so doesn't necessarily make 'it' SO...right?

Has anyone ever interpreted for you?

I've only felt the 'unction' 2 times. The first time I wouldn't speak, the second time was in a homegroup and one of our church elders interpreted. Why didn't I 'speak' the first time you wonder? Because to do the real thing takes FAITH and I wimped. To FAKE it only takes a FOOL, which even non Spirit baptized people can apparently diagnose.

Tell me, Hillsage...have you ever heard the voice of God speaking to you directly?

Audibly? No. But I did audibly hear the devil (or a demon once). And I was also physically grabbed at that same time. It scared the...."I plead the blood of Jesus" out of me.

Shorter posts please, I don't want to spend this much time here really. I shouldn't have jumped in on that other thread but I did.

 

[Hillsage]

I think you may have misread the verse you quoted..

And I still 'think' NOT.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The passage says that we need not lay again the foundation.
This foundation has already been laid, we must now build on it, if God permit.

You're reading it right, but understanding it wrong. Multiple baptisms ARE 'part' of the foundational doctrines you NEED to "go on to perfection". And scripture is saying the only reason God won't "permit" you to go to perfection is IF you haven't met these doctrinal foundation requirements FIRST.

And then, what verse do you quote 'with poor understanding' to prove your point that you don't need "baptisms" plural? Eph 4:4 "one baptism". Now you want me to believe you have the foundational requirements of "baptismS".of which the baptism of the Spirit is ONE. Barrd, the bible simply won't allow me to have that opinion.

But there is no point in laying this foundation again,

You aren't laying it again because you never laid it for the first time. You have never had multiple baptisms. You even fight us on trying to tell you to get the baptism of the Spirit. IMO You blaspheme gifts we testify are real and we back that biblically also, but you refute them.

I just think there is some confusion.

That can be cleared up by asking questions and not by making declarations based upon lack of understanding. If you decide you don't understand Eph 4:4, then ASK.

Hillsage, have you ever heard the voice of God?

Too many posts between us now. My fault, I missed your earlier 'big' one by missing all day Friday when this thing was puking out too much sibling rivalry IMO. Like I said; "Not audibly", but YES! emphatically I've heard God speak to me many many times over the years. But I've also thought I heard when I didn't too. Like Paul "I am not already perfect, but I press on to make it my own."[/QUOTE]

 

[Biblicist]

Nope, they just acted like and behaved JUST like those over in Africa practicing VOODOO.

Blessings,

MEC

I notice that your faith icon has you down as "someone who is ever seeking but never knowing", so I should not be surprised to see your humanism attacking what you do not understand.

 

[Biblicist]

Since you are also one of them, what is the chance that one of your own is going to tell you that she faked it? LOL, no. That would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? Then you would know that they aren't as "holy" as you are, or that's the way they seem to think.
If your church teaches that the evidence of having received the HS is speaking in tongues, and you aren't speaking in tongues, then obviously, you haven't received the HS.
And no one wants to be left out of the group...

As I was reading through your reply, I thought, hang-on, haven’t I just posted a fair amount of material that made a reasonably indepth reply talking about a particular Spanish student who was in an A0G Bible college and with how numerous people within “my ranks” have queried if they’re really speaking in tongues (so <Up Arrow> <Up Arrow> <Up Arrow>) yep I sure did! (<Down Arrow> x 3)

I have no idea what a "cessationist" is supposed to be...but I've never, ever heard anyone being warned not to move into the things of the Spirit or not to go outside of their circles for prayer.
I am very sorry if you've ever encountered such.

Okay, all you need to do is to undertake a quick Google search which will get you up to speed. Essentially the cessationist worldview was a natural consequence of the so called “enlightenment” where human rationalism began to remove the power of God from the Gospel. So when Pentecostals and charismatics speak of prophecy, healing, praying in the Spirit (tongues) and for many hard-core cessationists, when we even say that we can expect answers to our prayers, many cessationists will quickly go on the attack.

I'm not sure if that is meant to be sarcastic or not...the bit about locking my door does sound as if you are trying to mock me. However, you are right about one thing. Keeping to the Word is, indeed, the only safe option.

Sarcasm! Would an Australian ever employ such a wonderful tool? In this case it was more along the lines of situational irony where some could possibly deem this particular reply as maybe containing a hint of sarcasm. Some would also say that Australians have probably mastered (or that we think we have) the art of sarcasm and situational irony, but of course, it is definitely satisfying when others are not aware that they have been the target (umm…so I’m told). As for sarcasm, it can be defined as the ability to extract and point out the minutest points of weakness in a conversation.

Sarcasm is also aligned with satire which interestingly enough is generally protected by Law as it is a highly valued debating tool; anyway, most of us like a good laugh.

You know what, you’ve got this aussie on a role where I wonder, as this website is undoubtedly bound by US Law and that the US Law protects satire/parody, does this mean that the following is a protected right on the forum:

“Satire is an indirect form of critique, in that it mocks or attacks an individual or idea by proxy. Satirical speech and literature is generally used to observe and judge the "evils" or morally questionable ideals held by individuals, groups and sometimes entire cultures. The attack itself is derived from what is known as the satirist's social motive--these critiques illustrate what the satirist, within the context of their own world view, believes is "right" based upon what they ridicule as "wrong". Jean Weisgerber's Satire and Irony a Means of Communication states, "Satire is manifestly directed to people. It involves the victim it attacks and the public it tries to persuade, it restores to language its full status as a means of communication, its end is rhetorical."

Weisgerber, Jean. "Satire & Irony as Means of Communication", Comparative Literature Studies Vol. 10 No. 2 Special Issue in Honor of Chandler B. Beall (Jun, 1973), pp. 160.​

Okay, I’ve now repented (sarcasm) and lit a few candles (satire) so back to some more serious discussion (situational irony). Rhetorically (rhetoric … no surprise here) its been a rather long day, but I’m tempted to post this in the CF assistance forum and see if I can ruffle a few feathers – it would be hilarious, especially if I were to place (very…mischievously) “mock or attacks” in bold type.

I sometimes wonder...if Paul could see what we have made of the church in the 2000 or so years since Christ, what would he think? Perhaps he would wish that he had gone to live in that secluded cave...

Is this so that the devil won't be able to understand your prayers? I have heard some charismatics say so.

That’s the second sixty-four dollar question I’ve come across today. I was going to post the following paragraph to someone (and a Pentecostal at that!) who said that when we pray in the Spirit that this can be in English (but he is a Kiwi). Anyway, this could be a good place to paste it and of course it might not ruffle his Kiwi (New Zealand) feathers (by the way, Kiwi’s have feathers).

Could you imagine what would happen when a home group is praying for one of its members “in the Spirit” due to some sickness. If (and I say if) the sickness was due to some unknown sin/s (James 5:14) then the prayer could go something along the lines of “Even though “Fred” has been in a long term adulterous affair with the senior ministers wife and just stolen money from his business partner who is a part of this home group …..Amen!” Okay folks, prayer time is over so now lets all have some coffee and biscuits.​

Somehow I suspect that the meeting might suddenly take a turn for the worst where they just might need something a little stronger than coffee with maybe some first aid and a lawyer.

Even though we frequently hear where the Spirit is supposed to speak to the Father in a heavenly language that Satan does not know, it’s a pleasing concept but it is still conjecture as the Scriptures don’t give us any hint of this. The main problem that I have with this is that as Satan is still a reasonably finite being, I really doubt that he would have the capacity to understand what the Spirit would be saying simultaneously through maybe millions of Christians.

What did Paul actually say?
Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Notice that in each of these verses, Paul is NOT saying that he does have or do these things...but only IF he did, but did not have charity...we would say love...none of them would be worth anything.
IF he spoke in the tongues of men and angels, but did not have love, he would be nothing more than a bunch of annoying noise...

Now here’s the fun part; don’t forget, as Paul spoke both Aramaic and Hebrew and being a Roman citizen he would have had a good grasp of Latin where he probably also had a working knowledge of Greek. So here we have Paul definitely having to speak at least one language Aramaic (otherwise his teaching sessions would be pretty boring). Paul goes to great lengths in 1Cor 14 to tell us that “no one can understand what the Spirit says”, how then can our ability to allow the Spirit to audibly pray through us to the Father be in anything other than an inarticulate communication as no-one can understand what the Spirit is saying?

What most cessationist commentators tend to fail to address (or maybe they choose to ignore) is that Paul also tells us that the three tongues that we give in our congregational meetings must each be interpreted through the Holy Spirit. If tongues were given in known human languages, this would have demanded that Paul probably would have had to spend another chapter giving us some instructions as to how to deal with someone (particularly an unsaved visitor) who falsely claims that the Believers were cursing the name of Jesus – what a nightmare it would be.

I see we share the same opinion of "GOD" TV. You know, if you ever got to know me, you might find out I'm not such a bad ol' lady after all...

You might be surprised with how much I (and others) will agree with you on these types of matters.

Yes. But again, the people who are involved in it are quite serious. In this little Alabama town where I live, being "slain in the spirit" is very popular.

As much as I would like to say that this type of thing is an “American development”, who would I be kidding. It seems that even the elect can be prone to, shall I politely say, aberrations and distractions. For that matter, even Paul decided to record for posterity how he had to bring Peter back into line when he rebuked him for associating with those who wanted to return to the “old ways”. Paul would undoubtedly have a field day if he were here amongst us today.

My friends are dead. That is nothing to mock at.
It's been a very, very long time ago...

I saw this with your reply to Hillsage and I must admit that it was certainly a sad event. I suspect that their emotional states were questionable for a long time where maybe anything could have been the trigger. Many atheists would undoubtedly blame the Gospel and others would lay blame elsewhere.

 

[Biblicist]

Hey Barrd,

Perhaps you can clear up something that has yet to be addressed in any manner discernible to ME:

What does this mean:

Tongues are for a SIGN, not to them that BELIEVE, but to them that believe NOT.

Now, the ONLY way you can offer ANYTHING that makes any sense is to offer it IN CONTEXT.

Paul has already offered that if a NON believer were to enter a 'church' and witness people speaking in GIBBERISH they would think those speaking in such a manner BARBARIANS. I think that it's pretty obvious Paul IS NOT trying to encourage the 'church' to appear AS BARBARIANS.

So, IN context, what is Paul saying when he offers that 'tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT.

In 1Cor 14:4-20 Paul explains how uninterpreted tongues within the congregational setting provides nothing of any benefit to the congregation (other than to the one who is praising God in the Spirit). In 14:21 Paul raises the stakes by making reference back to how the Assyrians sacked Jerusalem and how the foreign and unknown commands of the Assyrian soldiers made no sense to them, which often results with soldiers acting callously.

As a result of these unknown articulations from those who are praising God in the Spirit, Paul makes the valid point that those who are not initiated into the things of the Spirit will most likely be repulsed by the Spirits activity, where they may to a certain extent be justified with saying “you are mad” where they walk away being further hardened to the Gospel.

In the case of 1Cor 14:22, the Greek word semion is therefore being used in a negative sense.

 

[Biblicist]

Oh, and my use of capital letters is for emphasis. Not a 'screamer'. And I certainly don't adhere to everyone else ideas about what everything HAS to mean. I am ME. Just a simple man and I type REALLY REALLY fast.

Blessings,

MEC

My typing speed is around 75 wpm but we still need to adhere to accepted conventions when it comes to written communication in particular.

 

[TheBarrd]

I notice that your faith icon has you down as "someone who is ever seeking but never knowing", so I should not be surprised to see your humanism attacking what you do not understand.

My faith icon has me down as a Christian.
It is my sincere belief that cutting the Body of Christ up into some 30,000 pieces is a great shame to His church.
I do not affiliate myself with any denomination.
Make of it what you will.

 

[TheBarrd]

And I ran around with, and did homeless people ministry in Denver a couple years back, with a guy who had been a guard at one of his crusades. He saw and experienced 'the real'. And I've talked to two people from my church who went to a crusade. One was slain 'in masse' and the other got healed. I believe them.

Having the baptism of the Holy Spirit helps discern the real. And given how you feel about the Holy Spirit in these type things, maybe I shouldn't believe your story either. Ouch.

I believe that every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. But most of them do not speak in tongues. That doesn't mean that they don't have other abilities, however.

Quite frankly I believe the Holy Spirit has taught me the difference between spiritual gifts and soulish talents too.

Well, there goes your logic again. Tell me not to assume because I don't know you. OK, I'll just base my thoughts/comments on the facts....Wait I don't have any facts do I? Dang I guess we're...back to assuming again. Aren't WE?

Can't prove that by the way most of your posts make me 'feel'. BOTH for myself as well as other Charis/Pente brethren here. Believe it or not, I was just about to come back to this thread and refuse to even talk to 'you guys' since I respect what I've read from Biblicist and felt like just talking to him was taking too much time. And then you address me with your "I like your name" post. Barrd, that truly floored me.

Now it is you who is assuming. When I said 'bad spirit' I truly mean that. I was in the deliverance ministry for 2 years. I've seen things that scared 'big Christian talkers' in a church that believed 'they' should have been ministering with me too.

Because that is what the immature church does IMO. They all either want to make you think that they are 'spiritual' when they aren't. Your side is just as guilty IMO.

Then don't expect to understand my position. I've been quoting him all along. Apparently God has made you much better in your eyes, than I believe he has made me then. Because I got stuff you don't and I need stuff you 'believe' you don't too.

I think the gift of TEACHER in the fivefold ministry is for all the church to mature. Maybe you just biblically diagnosed the reason for your own lack of understanding concerning the things we do claim understanding and experience of.

ministry gift of teaching IMO.

I'm saying it plainly.and supporting it with scripture IMO. And don't people say "I am a Christian" all the time, too. Saying so doesn't necessarily make 'it' SO...right?

I've only felt the 'unction' 2 times. The first time I wouldn't speak, the second time was in a homegroup and one of our church elders interpreted. Why didn't I 'speak' the first time you wonder? Because to do the real thing takes FAITH and I wimped. To FAKE it only takes a FOOL, which even non Spirit baptized people can apparently diagnose.

Audibly? No. But I did audibly hear the devil (or a demon once). And I was also physically grabbed at that same time. It scared the...."I plead the blood of Jesus" out of me.

Shorter posts please, I don't want to spend this much time here really. I shouldn't have jumped in on that other thread but I did.

Okay, well, we won't argue. I can see that there is not going to be any meeting of the minds between us.
However, I still do like your name...it makes me think of fresh meadow breezes.
I would like to leave you with a blessing.
May God watch over you and keep you, and lead you into His truth.
Amen

 

[TheBarrd]

As I was reading through your reply, I thought, hang-on, haven’t I just posted a fair amount of material that made a reasonably indepth reply talking about a particular Spanish student who was in an A0G Bible college and with how numerous people within “my ranks” have queried if they’re really speaking in tongues (so <Up Arrow> <Up Arrow> <Up Arrow>) yep I sure did! (<Down Arrow> x 3)


Okay, all you need to do is to undertake a quick Google search which will get you up to speed. Essentially the cessationist worldview was a natural consequence of the so called “enlightenment” where human rationalism began to remove the power of God from the Gospel. So when Pentecostals and charismatics speak of prophecy, healing, praying in the Spirit (tongues) and for many hard-core cessationists, when we even say that we can expect answers to our prayers, many cessationists will quickly go on the attack.



Sarcasm! Would an Australian ever employ such a wonderful tool? In this case it was more along the lines of situational irony where some could possibly deem this particular reply as maybe containing a hint of sarcasm. Some would also say that Australians have probably mastered (or that we think we have) the art of sarcasm and situational irony, but of course, it is definitely satisfying when others are not aware that they have been the target (umm…so I’m told). As for sarcasm, it can be defined as the ability to extract and point out the minutest points of weakness in a conversation.

Sarcasm is also aligned with satire which interestingly enough is generally protected by Law as it is a highly valued debating tool; anyway, most of us like a good laugh.

You know what, you’ve got this aussie on a role where I wonder, as this website is undoubtedly bound by US Law and that the US Law protects satire/parody, does this mean that the following is a protected right on the forum:

“Satire is an indirect form of critique, in that it mocks or attacks an individual or idea by proxy. Satirical speech and literature is generally used to observe and judge the "evils" or morally questionable ideals held by individuals, groups and sometimes entire cultures. The attack itself is derived from what is known as the satirist's social motive--these critiques illustrate what the satirist, within the context of their own world view, believes is "right" based upon what they ridicule as "wrong". Jean Weisgerber's Satire and Irony a Means of Communication states, "Satire is manifestly directed to people. It involves the victim it attacks and the public it tries to persuade, it restores to language its full status as a means of communication, its end is rhetorical."

Weisgerber, Jean. "Satire & Irony as Means of Communication", Comparative Literature Studies Vol. 10 No. 2 Special Issue in Honor of Chandler B. Beall (Jun, 1973), pp. 160.​

Okay, I’ve now repented (sarcasm) and lit a few candles (satire) so back to some more serious discussion (situational irony). Rhetorically (rhetoric … no surprise here) its been a rather long day, but I’m tempted to post this in the CF assistance forum and see if I can ruffle a few feathers – it would be hilarious, especially if I were to place (very…mischievously) “mock or attacks” in bold type.



That’s the second sixty-four dollar question I’ve come across today. I was going to post the following paragraph to someone (and a Pentecostal at that!) who said that when we pray in the Spirit that this can be in English (but he is a Kiwi). Anyway, this could be a good place to paste it and of course it might not ruffle his Kiwi (New Zealand) feathers (by the way, Kiwi’s have feathers).

Could you imagine what would happen when a home group is praying for one of its members “in the Spirit” due to some sickness. If (and I say if) the sickness was due to some unknown sin/s (James 5:14) then the prayer could go something along the lines of “Even though “Fred” has been in a long term adulterous affair with the senior ministers wife and just stolen money from his business partner who is a part of this home group …..Amen!” Okay folks, prayer time is over so now lets all have some coffee and biscuits.​

Somehow I suspect that the meeting might suddenly take a turn for the worst where they just might need something a little stronger than coffee with maybe some first aid and a lawyer.

Even though we frequently hear where the Spirit is supposed to speak to the Father in a heavenly language that Satan does not know, it’s a pleasing concept but it is still conjecture as the Scriptures don’t give us any hint of this. The main problem that I have with this is that as Satan is still a reasonably finite being, I really doubt that he would have the capacity to understand what the Spirit would be saying simultaneously through maybe millions of Christians.


Now here’s the fun part; don’t forget, as Paul spoke both Aramaic and Hebrew and being a Roman citizen he would have had a good grasp of Latin where he probably also had a working knowledge of Greek. So here we have Paul definitely having to speak at least one language Aramaic (otherwise his teaching sessions would be pretty boring). Paul goes to great lengths in 1Cor 14 to tell us that “no one can understand what the Spirit says”, how then can our ability to allow the Spirit to audibly pray through us to the Father be in anything other than an inarticulate communication as no-one can understand what the Spirit is saying?

What most cessationist commentators tend to fail to address (or maybe they choose to ignore) is that Paul also tells us that the three tongues that we give in our congregational meetings must each be interpreted through the Holy Spirit. If tongues were given in known human languages, this would have demanded that Paul probably would have had to spend another chapter giving us some instructions as to how to deal with someone (particularly an unsaved visitor) who falsely claims that the Believers were cursing the name of Jesus – what a nightmare it would be.


You might be surprised with how much I (and others) will agree with you on these types of matters.


As much as I would like to say that this type of thing is an “American development”, who would I be kidding. It seems that even the elect can be prone to, shall I politely say, aberrations and distractions. For that matter, even Paul decided to record for posterity how he had to bring Peter back into line when he rebuked him for associating with those who wanted to return to the “old ways”. Paul would undoubtedly have a field day if he were here amongst us today.


I saw this with your reply to Hillsage and I must admit that it was certainly a sad event. I suspect that their emotional states were questionable for a long time where maybe anything could have been the trigger. Many atheists would undoubtedly blame the Gospel and others would lay blame elsewhere.

You're Australian? That is fascinating to me. I came very near to getting on a boat with my brood and heading "down under" back in the 80's...long story.
Anyhow, I will say to you the same thing I said to Hillsage. I just do not see any meeting of the minds between us.
I'm not one to continue to engage in vain and useless debate.
Therefore, I will bid you a fond fare thee well.
And I will pray that my God might watch over you and keep you, and lead you into His truth.
In Christian love,
TheBarrd

 

[Biblicist]

My faith icon has me down as a Christian.
It is my sincere belief that cutting the Body of Christ up into some 30,000 pieces is a great shame to His church.
I do not affiliate myself with any denomination.
Make of it what you will.

Actually my reply was to Imagican with his "christian-seeker" which implies that they have not yet made a decision for Christ. As for your "Christian" icon I've used that as well but I felt that it was a bit too general.

 

[TheBarrd]

Actually my reply was to Imagican with his "christian-seeker" which implies that they have not yet made a decision for Christ. As for your "Christian" icon I've used that as well but I felt that it was a bit too general.

My apologies.
Imagican is on my ignore list for behavior unbecoming to a gentleman.