The Administration Of Tongues

TheBarrd

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Well, a lot of us simply enjoy undoing the pretentions of man - and there are a few around (that's pretentions, not men)!

In my humble opinion, for what little it is worth, there is an awful lot of pretension going on within the charismatic movement.
I honestly do not know what to believe about it. I've actually spoken to people who admit that they "faked it".
And people who were paid to pretend to be handicapped so that they might be "healed".

And I know that the Bible tells me that false Christs an false prophets would arise with signs and wonders that, if it were possible, would deceive the very elect.

I know that anyone claiming a "special anointing of God" is claiming to be a Christ. Christ is not Jesus' last name...it is a term meaning "Anointed One"...and He is the only One.

From what I've personally seen living among Charismatics in the south as I do, most of them are not very nice people. They tend to be what I call "uppity". Christian love and charity do not seem to be major facets of their character.

And so much of it is so obviously fake. Every now and then, you might hear a bit of latin...or what sounds like latin...as someone babbles on...but mostly it is just gibberish, with no form or structure to it. Not a language, angelic or otherwise.

What scares me to my bones, however, is those few cases which do seem to be real. The person "under the spirit" has no control over it...he/she may even jerk or foam at the mouth as he/she speaks his/her tongue. More often than not, he/she is angry...or becomes so as he/she speaks. There will generally be a bit more structure to his/her speech...but it sure doesn't sound like praise or prayer. Some will say that they are pouring out God's wrath...and given the state we've let our nation get into, that is possible, I suppose...
Still, it frightens me. It seems more like these few...and they are a very few among all the fakes...might be under control of a demon. If it is the Holy Spirit, He is not in a good mood...

As for the rest of it...falling under the spirit, holy laughter, holy drunkeness, behaving like barnyard animals while under the spirit....you have to know that all of that is as ridiculous as it can be. It is very difficult to watch that nonsense without laughing...but the people involved are quite serious.

And as I say, I had friends involved in the "Toronto Blessing."
Three of them are dead now...rumor has it that they were in an apartment in Buffalo, and thought they saw Jesus out the window...so they decided to join him...and fell 6 stories to their deaths.
Holy Spirit?
I don't think so....
 
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Hillsage

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yikes .. the great sorrow is that he thought he was somehow lacking that is very sad .. singing in the spirit can be done perfectly in english also .. it need not be limited to tongues ..
Alithis,


I'm going to disagree with you. "Singing in the spirit" is NOT singing in English (for us English only speakers). Singing in English is singing with your soul/mind only (for us trichotomists anyway ^_^).

And in keeping with the Tri- POV EPH 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,

All I can say is I see more 'half hearted' singing in the "unlearned" type church [1 Cor.14:23], and more "with all your heart" type singing from those who are "charis/Pente".

Here's another TRI- observation of the above verse; Singing psalms written by inspiration of God, singing hymns written/inspired by the soul of man, And singing spiritual songs written/inspired by the spirit. Our spirit and not The Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:3 ...written not with ink, but with the Sspirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

According to Bullinger; no definite article above and therefore should not have been a capital 'S'. The A.V. 1611 correctly has a small 's'. But newer mis-translations capped it.

Short story being; pray/sing in English is praying/singing with your soul. Pray/sing in tongues is praying singing with your spirit. It therefore is not The Spirit praying and singing to Himself/God. Speech/tongues is a gift of The Spirit for our spirit and we "make melody with all our heart" for our spirit to sing (Eph 5:19). Scripture is simply plain on that IMO.
 
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Alithis

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Alithis,


I'm going to disagree with you. "Singing in the spirit" is NOT singing in English (for us English only speakers). Singing in English is singing with your soul/mind only (for us trichotomists anyway ^_^).

And in keeping with the Tri- POV EPH 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,

All I can say is I see more 'half hearted' singing in the "unlearned" type church [1 Cor.14:23], and more "with all your heart" type singing from those who are "charis/Pente".

Here's another TRI- observation of the above verse; Singing psalms written by inspiration of God, singing hymns written/inspired by the soul of man, And singing spiritual songs written/inspired by the spirit. Our spirit and not The Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:3 ...written not with ink, but with the Sspirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

According to Bullinger; no definite article above and therefore should not have been a capital 'S'. The A.V. 1611 correctly has a small 's'. But newer mis-translations capped it.

Short story being; pray/sing in English is praying/singing with your soul. Pray/sing in tongues is praying singing with your spirit. It therefore is not The Spirit praying and singing to Himself/God. Speech/tongues is a gift of The Spirit for our spirit and we "make melody with all our heart" for our spirit to sing (Eph 5:19). Scripture is simply plain on that IMO.
thats to linear in thinking ,,, not when the "tongue" is english ... lets not place such limitations on the lord ..;)
 
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Hillsage

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thats to linear in thinking ,,, not when the "tongue" is english ... lets not place such limitations on the lord ..;)
Linear how? Spirit tongue is not an English tongue of "understanding". Thinking that the there is no difference between the tongues of the "unlearned" (1 Cor 14:23) and those who've been Spirit baptized receiving a tongue "unknown to man" 1 Cor 14:2, is simply 'limiting the Spirit's gift' IMO..;) When I pray in my 'spirit/tongue' "unknown to man" and when I sing in the spirit/tongue "unknown" to man, not even I understand that tongue with my English educated soul (mind will emotion). BUT if and when I THEN pray in my English speaking soulish tongue, and then sing in English which is also known unto me, then I fulfill the mandate of 1Co 14:15.

1CO 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

If you think this verse means you can do them both at the same time, then you may need to tell me how you do that. Because I can't. :eek:
 
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Hillsage

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This became a very long post but there was no other option as you had asked a number of questions which required reasonably indepth replies.

Before the Lord, anyone, be they a Pentecostal, charismatic or cessationist, if we have repented of our sin and confessed Jesus as Lord, where we subsequently receive the Holy Spirit then we each have equal standing before the Lord.
IF tht be true, then why didn't the Christians at Samaria get The Holy Spirit (man capitalized) when they believed and even got baptized 'the right way' I'm sure, because Phillip did it, and I'm assuming he surely used the 'right words/name'. ;)

ACT 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

So, according to what you just said they should have the Holy Spirit, right? Well apparently NOT...according to scripture;

ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Like I said, please don't tell me Phillip didn't know what name to use to baptize correctly. This story is one reason I say you receive A holy spirit IN you at salvation. And The Holy Spirit never is in your body, he is "fallen ON" you and is in the 'body of Christ' which body you are a member of.

If The Holy Spirit was fully in your body of sinful flesh, I personally believe you'd spontaneously combust. :zap::bomb:


Asaying; 'That which is not holy enough to contain the power of God, will be destroyed by the power of God.'
 
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Hillsage

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Hillsage, I like your signature.
But I wonder...
Do you have an unremitting readiness to admit that you may be wrong?
Thank you. Please note that it is 'Hill-sage' and not 'Mountain-sage'. And it really came to be, because I'm kinda old and live on 'Sagehill Trail'. So there you have it. Not as haughty as one might first think....I think. :idea:

As to your question. I have the most unorthodox belief system of anybody I've ever fellowshiped with for several years now. I did not get that way by just believing every doctrine one or two denominations, or even one or two cults taught/believed. I spent time with anyone who deemed themselves right and me wrong. There's a 'sage saying'; "He who only knows 'that' which he believes, doesn't even know 'that'." So yes I still have that same willingness to change, and still do. Just not much in the big things anymore.

And now, 'the hammer falls', I'm thinking?
 
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TheBarrd

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Thank you. Please note that it is 'Hill-sage' and not 'Mountain-sage'. And it really came to be, because I'm kinda old and live on 'Sagehill Trail'. So there you have it. Not as haughty as one might first think....I think. :idea:

As to your question. I have the most unorthodox belief system of anybody I've ever fellowshiped with for several years now. I did not get that way by just believing every doctrine one or two denominations, or even one or two cults taught/believed. I spent time with anyone who deemed themselves right and me wrong. There's a 'sage saying'; "He who only knows 'that' which he believes, doesn't even know 'that'." So yes I still have that same willingness to change, and still do. Just not much in the big things anymore.

And now, 'the hammer falls', I'm thinking?
LOL...I have no hammer, Hillsage. And I like your name. I think it's cool.
I don't agree with you about tongues, but I don't really care what you do as long as you don't try to tell other people that they aren't "holy" or they don't "have the holy spirit" unless they do as you do.

I believe that 90-95% of the so-called "charismatic movement" is nothing but pure fakery. It's just too hokey to be real.
It's that tiny percentage of people who are really under the influence of....something....that worry me.
People who walk out of sixth story windows because they "were in the spirit" and they saw a "vision" of Christ, beckoning to them. Do you honestly think this was "holy"?
Or people who, while under the spirit, get more and more angry, till they are screaming in rage...

If you don't understand your own "tongue"...how do you know that what you are saying isn't a curse, and not a blessing?

No hammer, no bell...
Only my little song...
 
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Hillsage

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LOL...I have no hammer, Hillsage. And I like your name. I think it's cool.
Thanks again. :oldthumbsup:

I don't agree with you about tongues,
Not even all of us Crazimatics agree. Take me and Biblicist for example. We're all still a work in progress.

but I don't really care what you do as long as you don't try to tell other people that they aren't "holy" or they don't "have the holy spirit" unless they do as you do.
Now we may have a problem. You want to 'blast' 90-95% of us, but I shouldn't do likewise? :doh: I hope that hits you as funny as it hit me. Another sage saying; 'OOOOOh consistency, thou art a jewel to be sought for.' ;)

OK how's this; I do believe that 'Other people can be holy and have A holy spirit.' That is Close anyway. This probably won't fly though. 'Other Christians can be holy but you can't 'receive/lambano' the baptism of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues.' Don't blast all of us, remember 'we' don't even all agree.

[/quote]I believe that 90-95% of the so-called "charismatic movement" is nothing but pure fakery. It's just too hokey to be real.
It's that tiny percentage of people who are really under the influence of....something....that worry me.[/quote]
What worries me, is that it worries you enough that you don't seek the supernatural 'more' that's available from God. Here's a 'principle' verse for you.

Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?

People who walk out of sixth story windows because they "were in the spirit" and they saw a "vision" of Christ, beckoning to them. Do you honestly think this was "holy"?
Or people who, while under the spirit, get more and more angry, till they are screaming in rage...
Yep, bad spirit, very bad spirit.

If you don't understand your own "tongue"...how do you know that what you are saying isn't a curse, and not a blessing?
LUK 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?....:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Bullinger would say here, that Holy Spirit should be holy spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't need fish or bread and He doesn't really have a Father in the context/sense of this verse IMO.

I would also say you really can't say Jesus is Lord unless you've submitted your tongue to your spirit by the Lord's baptism from the Spirit.

1CO 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking BY the Spirit OF God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except BY the Holy Spirit.

Bulllinger again says bad capitalization time again. Also do you know what the definition of the Greek word for "BY" is where it should say speaking BY spirit of God?

A better translation IMO. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in spirit from God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in holy spirit.


How do you speak "in holy spirit". I believe I do so when I speak in the tongue of my spirit. And yes I don't know what I"m saying but I trust God's promise to not give my spirit a 'serpents' tongue.

No hammer, no bell...
Only my little song...
Are you 'still' SURE? Good nite. :wave:
 
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Biblicist

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In my humble opinion, for what little it is worth, there is an awful lot of pretension going on within the charismatic movement.
You’re certainly right and considering there are reportedly 500 million Pentecostals and charismatics across virtually every denomination and country then why should we be surprised. Then we have the well-intended opinions, where we have developed less than perfect doctrines and practices; of course there is the outright abuse and deception as well. Of course I could very easily be summarising Paul’s letters to the various churches that he planted and then there’s the hard-core cessationist elements.

As for those whom you’ve met that have claimed that they were faking tongues, you must be well travelled as my 40 years in Pentecostal and charismatic circles from memory, has only produced one very embarrassed and frustrated Spanish speaking Bible college student who sang in Spanish during times of free praise and worship. Now to his credit, he wasn’t claiming that he was singing in tongues so he probably wasn’t doing anything wrong. Hopefully he eventually got over his emotional blockage where he could eventually pray in tongues. I have certainly met some new and inexperienced Christians who have wondered if they were speaking in tongues or in human syllables but these people tend to quickly sort themselves out. There are certainly a few who might ‘try and help the Spirit’ by saying things such as ‘i-am-a-honda’ over and over but these but these people are also quickly encouraged/counselled to stop getting in the way of the Spirit.

I honestly do not know what to believe about it. I've actually spoken to people who admit that they "faked it".
And people who were paid to pretend to be handicapped so that they might be "healed".
And we also have the many thousands of testimonies from both cessationists and ex-cessationists who have said that their congregations have used either coercion or even threats if they move into the things of the Spirit, or we're they dare go outside of their circles for prayer over some sickness; does this mean that all cessationists employ coercion or threats?

And I know that the Bible tells me that false Christs an false prophets would arise with signs and wonders that, if it were possible, would deceive the very elect.
You definitely have yourself in a bit of a self-induced cessationist bind as we are also warned against false teachers, so you should probably avoid any churches that contain teachers or for that matter who even teach; and it goes on and on where the only safe option is to stay home and lock our doors. Keep to the Word, it’s the only safe option.

From what I've personally seen living among Charismatics in the south as I do, most of them are not very nice people. They tend to be what I call "uppity". Christian love and charity do not seem to be major facets of their character.
Maybe you should broaden your horizons a bit more.

When I gave my heart to the Lord I was only a teenager where my foundations were within a cessationist congregation, not that I understood much of this at the time but I did start to notice that even though there were some very nice people in my circles, there were many not so nice people and in my opinion some very cold and very un-nice people. This was before satellite news and the Internet (but post-colour TV) so it wasn’t so easy to see what was happening around the world; this meant that the only contrast to what I was seeing around me was in the Word. I started to notice an ‘apparent’ discrepancy between what was seeing in my circles with what happened back in the so called Bible days. Anyway, once I left school I encountered some charismatics where I quickly met hundreds of people who had a fervency for the Lord that I had not seen before along with a huge amount of nice people, and of course, I still came across some not so nice people – but such is life.

So my point is that we need to avoid looking at the world around us and keep to the Word. When I consider the constant troubles that Paul went through with the churches of his day, he could probably be forgiven if he wanted to go and live in a secluded cave with a Do Not Enter sign on his door.


And so much of it is so obviously fake. Every now and then, you might hear a bit of latin...or what sounds like latin...as someone babbles on...but mostly it is just gibberish, with no form or structure to it. Not a language, angelic or otherwise.
The more knowledgeable Pentecostal or charismatic would know that when the Spirit prays through us within the congregational setting or during times of private prayer that he does not ever do so in a known human language. Now even though my tongue sounds similar (and only similar) to French I know full well that it is not a human language, where scholars will often say that tongues is “language-like but not language”.

Paul himself has been very careful to never equate tongues with human languages which is evidenced by his use of “species of tongues” (1Cor 12:10) and in 13:1 he carefully describes how he speaks in both a human tongue and an angelic tongue where he employs γλῶσσα glossa and not the Greek διάλεκτος dialektos for this purpose, as Luke did in Acts 2:8 where the spokesman for the crowd said “we hear them in our own (dialektos) languages”.

What scares me to my bones, however, is those few cases which do seem to be real. The person "under the spirit" has no control over it...
As everyone always has full control of their faculties and emotions then what you are witnessing is obviously hype and foolish emotion, which is often produced for the likes of “GOD”TV; they know that this will sadly attract the less astute Pentecostal and charismatic – and yes, they are among us.


...he/she may even jerk or foam at the mouth as he/she speaks his/her tongue. More often than not, he/she is angry...or becomes so as he/she speaks. There will generally be a bit more structure to his/her speech...but it sure doesn't sound like praise or prayer. Some will say that they are pouring out God's wrath...and given the state we've let our nation get into, that is possible, I suppose...
Still, it frightens me. It seems more like these few...and they are a very few among all the fakes...might be under control of a demon. If it is the Holy Spirit, He is not in a good mood...
May I suggest that you avoid Youtube (along with the erratic antics of the various Todd Bentley’s) and allow yourself to experience the harmonious and joyful praise of Christians in a prayer-group; now that’s generally something to behold!

As for the rest of it...falling under the spirit, holy laughter, holy drunkeness, behaving like barnyard animals while under the spirit....you have to know that all of that is as ridiculous as it can be. It is very difficult to watch that nonsense without laughing...but the people involved are quite serious.
I agree, as do countless millions of others.

And as I say, I had friends involved in the "Toronto Blessing."
Three of them are dead now...rumor has it that they were in an apartment in Buffalo, and thought they saw Jesus out the window...so they decided to join him...and fell 6 stories to their deaths.
Holy Spirit?
I don't think so....
These stories tend to bemuse me, by the way, did their heads spin around and around while smoke was pouring out of their ears? I did see this on in a movie once so I was wondering if we’re talking about the same movie.
 
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Biblicist

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IF tht be true, then why didn't the Christians at Samaria get The Holy Spirit (man capitalized) when they believed and even got baptized 'the right way' I'm sure, because Phillip did it, and I'm assuming he surely used the 'right words/name'. ;)
Providing that I'm following your line of though correctly, this would be the sixty-four dollar (with no allowance for inflation) question. The overall feeling is that Philip was only prepared to share the Good News of the new Messiah and that as he did not have any direct authority from the Jerusalem Council to explain to the Samaritans that they could receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit along with the evidence of speaking in tongues then they missed out.

The big question is did the Samaritans receive the Holy Spirit under Philip's ministry but as they did not know about the power of the Holy Spirit they could have very easily received and not known; much the same occurrs today with our Evangelical brethren.
 
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Biblicist

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thats to linear in thinking ,,, not when the "tongue" is english ... lets not place such limitations on the lord ..;)
Could it be that you might be inadvertantly placing your own thoughts back onto both the Word and God.

As the Spirit (through Paul) has already explained that tongues are always directed to the Lord within inarticulate language and that prophecy is always directed to the congregation in their native tongue; then why would the Holy Spirit feel compelled to go against what he has already told us?
 
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Biblicist

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Now we may have a problem. You want to 'blast' 90-95% of us, but I shouldn't do likewise? :doh: I hope that hits you as funny as it hit me. Another sage saying; 'OOOOOh consistency, thou art a jewel to be sought for.'
TheBarrds comment was not lost on me either! I was going to go back and provide links to where she had critised others but there are only so many hours in the day.
 
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TheBarrd

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Thanks again. :oldthumbsup:

Not even all of us Crazimatics agree. Take me and Biblicist for example. We're all still a work in progress.

Now we may have a problem. You want to 'blast' 90-95% of us, but I shouldn't do likewise? :doh: I hope that hits you as funny as it hit me. Another sage saying; 'OOOOOh consistency, thou art a jewel to be sought for.' ;)

I can only speak of that which I have actually seen and heard. I've spoken to several people who have been on Benny Hinn's television show, for instance...people who were paid to help him put on his "miracles".
I've never, ever seen anyone that I know who is crippled, or has some other infirmity, healed by any of the local "crazimatics"...although they have gone to be healed, and firmly do believe in it...
Now, maybe it is different elsewhere, but in upstate New York where I grew up, the crazimatic thing is rather rare, and when it does happen the people involved in it usually do not fare very well. To my knowledge, no one has ever actually been healed by these people. And here in Alabama, where it is everywhere you look...oh my! So much fakery going on that it is hard to tell who is for real!
Does that mean I don't believe that there are real miracles? Not only do I believe it, I have experienced it. I was mauled by a dog, and bleeding out...should be dead right now...but God sent an angel to me. Maybe one day I'll tell you the whole story.

OK how's this; I do believe that 'Other people can be holy and have A holy spirit.' That is Close anyway. This probably won't fly though. 'Other Christians can be holy but you can't 'receive/lambano' the baptism of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues.' Don't blast all of us, remember 'we' don't even all agree.

I believe that every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. But most of them do not speak in tongues. That doesn't mean that they don't have other abilities, however.
Quite frankly, I believe with all of my soul that God has given me a talent to write. I cannot take credit for the stories and poems, or for the book that I have written, because they came to me through God's Holy Spirit.

[/quote]I believe that 90-95% of the so-called "charismatic movement" is nothing but pure fakery. It's just too hokey to be real.
It's that tiny percentage of people who are really under the influence of....something....that worry me.[/quote]
What worries me, is that it worries you enough that you don't seek the supernatural 'more' that's available from God. Here's a 'principle' verse for you.
Romans 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?


Don't assume, Hillsage. First of all, you don't know me well enough for that. I do hope we will get to be friends, though.
Second, it is sorta rude. Especially if your assumption should turn out to be untrue. And it would be quite embarrassing for you if you turn out to be wrong, and I have sought the supernatural. Even moreso if you were to find out that God has also granted me His spirit, also.
And no...their faithlessness can never nullify the faithfulness of God.


Yep, bad spirit, very bad spirit.

Don't mock, Hillsage. My friends are dead.
And those people who end up screaming in rage? Do you not wonder at that? Is that from God, do you think?
And some of them stay angry, even after the episode. Nice, normal people, changed into raging...well, demons.


LUK 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?....:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


No one is doubting that our Heavenly Father does give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. The question is, why must so many people make believe? What are they trying to prove?
There is no question that a great many people do fake it. Many have admitted it. Why do they do it? Well, the number one reason, as far as I can make out, is to appear holy to the rest of the group.
But God is not fooled for a second...


Bullinger would say here, that Holy Spirit should be holy spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't need fish or bread and He doesn't really have a Father in the context/sense of this verse IMO.

I don't have any idea who Bullinger is, nor do I particularly care. I have one teacher. He is all I need.

I would also say you really can't say Jesus is Lord unless you've submitted your tongue to your spirit by the Lord's baptism from the Spirit.

Do you think that everyone who says "Lord, I submit unto thee my tongue" will then begin speaking in tongues? Why? Our tongues, I remember reading somewhere, are the smallest of our members...and yet they do the most damage. Should we not, then, submit them unto our Lord, that we may speak as He would have us to speak...in love for one another?
And in this age of the computer, I believe that would include communication such as you and I are sharing now.

1CO 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking BY the Spirit OF God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except BY the Holy Spirit.

Bulllinger again says bad capitalization time again. Also do you know what the definition of the Greek word for "BY" is where it should say speaking BY spirit of God?

A better translation IMO. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in spirit from God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in holy spirit.


Bullinger again. Whoever this guy is, he seems to be important to you. Why?
Also, are you saying that only "crazimatics" can say "Jesus is Lord"? I say it all the time...and I have never spoken in tongues, nor am I particularly eager for that gift.


How do you speak "in holy spirit". I believe I do so when I speak in the tongue of my spirit. And yes I don't know what I"m saying but I trust God's promise to not give my spirit a 'serpents' tongue.

Has anyone ever interpreted for you?

I read somewhere that there is a devil worshiping cult in the Philippines that believes that the sign that one has received the spirit of the demon is the same "speaking in tongues". Makes one wonder...


Are you 'still' SURE? Good nite.
Sure of my little song?
Absolutely.
I know in Whom I have believed.

Tell me, Hillsage...have you ever heard the voice of God speaking to you directly?
 
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TheBarrd

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TheBarrds comment was not lost on me either! I was going to go back and provide links to where she had critised others but there are only so many hours in the day.
And if you look real hard, you might even find some links that show where TheBarrd has praised some folks. But again, your time is too valuable to waste on such pursuits.
I understand.
 
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Biblicist

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And if you look real hard, you might even find some links that show where TheBarrd has praised some folks. But again, your time is too valuable to waste on such pursuits.
I understand.
True, very true indeed and you do so to your credit. But it is a bit much too expect us to ignore your remark - it was priceless!
 
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TheBarrd

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You’re certainly right and considering there are reportedly 500 million Pentecostals and charismatics across virtually every denomination and country then why should we be surprised. Then we have the well-intended opinions, where we have developed less than perfect doctrines and practices; of course there is the outright abuse and deception as well. Of course I could very easily be summarising Paul’s letters to the various churches that he planted and then there’s the hard-core cessationist elements.
As for those whom you’ve met that have claimed that they were faking tongues, you must be well travelled as my 40 years in Pentecostal and charismatic circles from memory, has only produced one very embarrassed and frustrated Spanish speaking Bible college student who sang in Spanish during times of free praise and worship. Now to his credit, he wasn’t claiming that he was singing in tongues so he probably wasn’t doing anything wrong. Hopefully he eventually got over his emotional blockage where he could eventually pray in tongues. I have certainly met some new and inexperienced Christians who have wondered if they were speaking in tongues or in human syllables but these people tend to quickly sort themselves out. There are certainly a few who might ‘try and help the Spirit’ by saying things such as ‘i-am-a-honda’ over and over but these but these people are also quickly encouraged/counselled to stop getting in the way of the Spirit.

Since you are also one of them, what is the chance that one of your own is going to tell you that she faked it? LOL, no. That would sort of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? Then you would know that they aren't as "holy" as you are, or that's the way they seem to think.
If your church teaches that the evidence of having received the HS is speaking in tongues, and you aren't speaking in tongues, then obviously, you haven't received the HS.
And no one wants to be left out of the group...


And we also have the many thousands of testimonies from both cessationists and ex-cessationists who have said that their congregations have used either coercion or even threats if they move into the things of the Spirit, or we're they dare go outside of their circles for prayer over some sickness; does this mean that all cessationists employ coercion or threats?

I have no idea what a "cessationist" is supposed to be...but I've never, ever heard anyone being warned not to move into the things of the Spirit or not to go outside of their circles for prayer.
I am very sorry if you've ever encountered such.

You definitely have yourself in a bit of a self-induced cessationist bind as we are also warned against false teachers, so you should probably avoid any churches that contain teachers or for that matter who even teach; and it goes on and on where the only safe option is to stay home and lock our doors. Keep to the Word, it’s the only safe option.

I'm not sure if that is meant to be sarcastic or not...the bit about locking my door does sound as if you are trying to mock me. However, you are right about one thing. Keeping to the Word is, indeed, the only safe option.


Maybe you should broaden your horizons a bit more.

Always good advice. Thank you.

When I gave my heart to the Lord I was only a teenager where my foundations were within a cessationist congregation, not that I understood much of this at the time but I did start to notice that even though there were some very nice people in my circles, there were many not so nice people and in my opinion some very cold and very un-nice people. This was before satellite news and the Internet (but post-colour TV) so it wasn’t so easy to see what was happening around the world; this meant that the only contrast to what I was seeing around me was in the Word. I started to notice an ‘apparent’ discrepancy between what was seeing in my circles with what happened back in the so called Bible days. Anyway, once I left school I encountered some charismatics where I quickly met hundreds of people who had a fervency for the Lord that I had not seen before along with a huge amount of nice people, and of course, I still came across some not so nice people – but such is life.

I am happy for you that you met so many good people. Now, I have also met several good people who have a fervent desire for the Lord, and who live to do His Will. Yes, I even know a charismatic preacher that I believe is authentic, even if he is a tad naive. He is a wonderful man of God, and one who will always be poor... Why? Because he gives everything away. His congregation is forever hitting him up for money...and he's always giving it to them.
I've had him to my house for dinner a few times...I mean, the guy's got to eat, fapeetsakes...

So my point is that we need to avoid looking at the world around us and keep to the Word. When I consider the constant troubles that Paul went through with the churches of his day, he could probably be forgiven if he wanted to go and live in a secluded cave with a Do Not Enter sign on his door.

I sometimes wonder...if Paul could see what we have made of the church in the 2000 or so years since Christ, what would he think? Perhaps he would wish that he had gone to live in that secluded cave...

The more knowledgeable Pentecostal or charismatic would know that when the Spirit prays through us within the congregational setting or during times of private prayer that he does not ever do so in a known human language. Now even though my tongue sounds similar (and only similar) to French I know full well that it is not a human language, where scholars will often say that tongues is “language-like but not language”.

Is this so that the devil won't be able to understand your prayers? I have heard some charismatics say so.

Paul himself has been very careful to never equate tongues with human languages which is evidenced by his use of “species of tongues” (1Cor 12:10) and in 13:1 he carefully describes how he speaks in both a human tongue and an angelic tongue where he employs γλῶσσα glossa and not the Greek διάλεκτος dialektos for this purpose, as Luke did in Acts 2:8 where the spokesman for the crowd said “we hear them in our own (dialektos) languages”.

What did Paul actually say?
Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Notice that in each of these verses, Paul is NOT saying that he does have or do these things...but only IF he did, but did not have charity...we would say love...none of them would be worth anything.
IF he spoke in the tongues of men and angels, but did not have love, he would be nothing more than a bunch of annoying noise...


As everyone always has full control of their faculties and emotions then what you are witnessing is obviously hype and foolish emotion, which is often produced for the likes of “GOD”TV; they know that this will sadly attract the less astute Pentecostal and charismatic – and yes, they are among us.

I see we share the same opinion of "GOD" TV. You know, if you ever got to know me, you might find out I'm not such a bad ol' lady after all...

May I suggest that you avoid Youtube (along with the erratic antics of the various Todd Bentley’s) and allow yourself to experience the harmonious and joyful praise of Christians in a prayer-group; now that’s generally something to behold!

I don't really watch Youtube too much...till very recently, the laptop I was using had no speakers. Most of what I've seen of the charismatic movement I've seen in various churches. There is one near here called "New Beginnings"...well, I don't think you'd be any more pleased than I am with that bunch. And it is quite a large church for this small town. Of course, they always seem to have a lot of folks from out of town in their parking lot...


I agree, as do countless millions of others.

Yes. But again, the people who are involved in it are quite serious. In this little Alabama town where I live, being "slain in the spirit" is very popular.


These stories tend to bemuse me, by the way, did their heads spin around and around while smoke was pouring out of their ears? I did see this on in a movie once so I was wondering if we’re talking about the same movie.

My friends are dead. That is nothing to mock at.
It's been a very, very long time ago...
 
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Alithis

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Linear how? Spirit tongue is not an English tongue of "understanding". Thinking that the there is no difference between the tongues of the "unlearned" (1 Cor 14:23) and those who've been Spirit baptized receiving a tongue "unknown to man" 1 Cor 14:2, is simply 'limiting the Spirit's gift' IMO..;) When I pray in my 'spirit/tongue' "unknown to man" and when I sing in the spirit/tongue "unknown" to man, not even I understand that tongue with my English educated soul (mind will emotion). BUT if and when I THEN pray in my English speaking soulish tongue, and then sing in English which is also known unto me, then I fulfill the mandate of 1Co 14:15.

1CO 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

If you think this verse means you can do them both at the same time, then you may need to tell me how you do that. Because I can't. :eek:
its linear in the sense that it assumes that it is not of the Spirit when our own language comes out your mouth .. sure if we premeditate what we are about to say..its us ..OR its inspired of the Holy Spirit .. but when it just flows from us .. it can be of the "in" the spirit the same as an unknown tongue .. lets not limit the lord .
One time recently the lord showed me as i prayed in tongues that in a single sentence the spirit was interceding for a number of differing things in different places and differing languages simultaneously .this is hardly a difficult thing for the Holy Spirit to do seeing that he is already omnipotent and omnipresent .

its only a thought to consider (not a doctrine ,don't get me wrong ) but also when he tells us in the bible that when we speak in tongues we speak mysteries .. it does not necessarily mean only that it's a mystery because we do not know what we speak.. but it's a mystery also because we do not comprehend the unlimited scope of the power of the holy Spirit by whom we speak .
i guess all im saying is we should not view these things only from our limited human mindset ..God is simply not bound to the limits of our imaginations.he is far more ..

sorry i didnt mean to argue with you .. just expressing a point of view that attempts to allow for the truth that God- is without limitation :)
 
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Alithis

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Could it be that you might be inadvertantly placing your own thoughts back onto both the Word and God.

As the Spirit (through Paul) has already explained that tongues are always directed to the Lord within inarticulate language and that prophecy is always directed to the congregation in their native tongue; then why would the Holy Spirit feel compelled to go against what he has already told us?
see other reply :)
 
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Hillsage

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Providing that I'm following your line of though correctly, this would be the sixty-four dollar (with no allowance for inflation) question. The overall feeling is that Philip was only prepared to share the Good News of the new Messiah and that as he did not have any direct authority from the Jerusalem Council to explain to the Samaritans that they could receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit along with the evidence of speaking in tongues then they missed out.

The big question is did the Samaritans receive the Holy Spirit under Philips's ministry but as they did not know about the power of the Holy Spirit they could have very easily received and not known; much the same occurrs today with our Evangelical brethren.
Wow, is that what you really believe personally? You believe people get 'the Holy Spirit' when they are first saved? And if so, didn't Phillip 'the evangelist' have 'that' authority in your opinion?

Personally, I believe what lines up with my theology and scripture as I understand it.. They "received/decomai the word of God" and got saved then "water baptized" which is exactly what Jerusalem apparently believed. So, after Billy Graham....Phillip...left town, these believers still didn't have the baptism of the Spirit which is subsequent to salvation IMO.. So they sent Peter and John that they might receeive/lambano the holy spirit.

That also was my experience which I personally feel lines up with scripture. And BTW no one ever 'authorized' me to baptize with the Holy Spirit, but I have.
 
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