The 10 Horns of Revelation 17:12-14

[Semper-Fi]

Vaticinium ex eventu means prophecy written after the fact.. That's why the OT was always a work in progress. It was subject to endless redactions, amendments and rewrites.

Those allegations where proven false.
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls

The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Torah
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Writings
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Prophets

 

[summerville]

Those allegations where proven false.
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls

The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Torah
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Writings
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Prophets

The Dead Sea scrolls are no older than the 2nd century BC which is about the same time the Torah was finished. What is your point?

The Ugarit tablets from Ras Shamra dated to 1200-1500 BC and are written in a half dozen ancient languages. Talk about a treasure!

1. Ugarit - Quartz Hill School of Theology
   www.theology.edu/ugarit.htm
   Ugarit. I. Archeological Background. The excavation of Ugarit began at a site known as Minet el-Beida, the "White Harbor", on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea north of Beirut, now in Syria. From antiquity to the present, the site has been an important seaport.
   
   
2. Ugarit and the Bible - Quartz Hill School of Theology
   www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm
   In short, when one has well in hand the literature and theology of Ugarit, one is well on the way to being able to comprehend some of the most important ideas contained in the Old Testament. For this reason it is worthwhile that we pursue this topic. 2. The Discovery of Ugarit and the Ugaritic Texts.
   

 

[Semper-Fi]

"This creates some moral dilemma. Because the same authors writing the famous commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness” (Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20) would have then “borne false witness” by writing repeatedly that Moses wrote the Torah (e.g. Exodus 17:14; Numbers 33:2; Deuteronomy 31:9). And it would throw under the bus the rest of the biblical books and authors that say likewise (e.g. Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Malachi).

 

[summerville]

"This creates some moral dilemma. Because the same authors writing the famous commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness” (Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20) would have then “borne false witness” by writing repeatedly that Moses wrote the Torah (e.g. Exodus 17:14; Numbers 33:2; Deuteronomy 31:9). And it would throw under the bus the rest of the biblical books and authors that say likewise (e.g. Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Malachi).

Only if you don't understand didactic literature.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Vaticinium ex eventu means prophecy written after the fact.. That's why the OT was always a work in progress. It was subject to endless redactions, amendments and rewrites.

A common belief (faith) amoung secularists. No historical data to verify it though.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

This author has done an intensive study of Josephus alongside the OT. Offered as food for thought. HIs information on the "beast" is also quite interesting

Here’s a list of these 10 generals and the territories they were to oversee in preparation for war with Rome:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion (Governor of Jerusalem)
2. Ananus, the high priest (Governor of Jerusalem)
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests (Idumaea)
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest (Idumaea)
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea (Idumaea)
6. Joseph, the son of Simon (Jericho)
7. Manasseh (Perea)
8. John, the Esscue (toparchy of Thamna; “Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus”)
9. John, the son of Matthias (toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene)
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias (both the Galilees; “Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command”)

Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1 ...
Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)month-locust-invasion-in-70-ad-revelation-91-11
Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

Easiest way to figure out who the ten emperors of the Roman Empire were. Start at the end of the Roman Empire. 1453 ad. Lop of 1280 years. That is the number given in Daniel regarding the beginning of the reign of that 11th emperor and given 5 more time in Revelation in relationship to the empire. That brings you to 193 ad. The first year of the reign of Septimious Severes. Then check out if he precisely fulfilled the prophecy about that 11th emperor. Not just in a sort of could apply to anyone way. If he PRECISELY FULFILLED that prophecy. If so. Then the ten before him are the ten emperors.

 

[ewq1938]

Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

And how about those lion teeth the Roman soldiers had in their mouths. They must have looked like literal monsters.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Basically a perfect match for Roman soldiers of AD70 as they weren't allowed to kill anyone, and no one could die even if they wanted. That's what happened at that time right?

 

[summerville]

And how about those lion teeth the Roman soldiers had in their mouths. They must have looked like literal monsters.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Basically a perfect match for Roman soldiers of AD70 as they weren't allowed to kill anyone, and no one could die even if they wanted. That's what happened at that time right?

The Jews chased the Romans away in 66 AD and they didn't return until 70 AD. The locusts weren't Romans.. The Gentiles that trampled Jerusalem for 42 months were Zealots.

The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem for 42 Months (Revelation ...
January 28, 2017 – Pursuing Truththe-gentiles-trampled-jerusalem-for-42-months...
Jan 28, 2017 · During the 42 months before the Romans came, Jerusalem was indeed trampled, but it was by a different group of people. In early 68 AD Jesus ben Gamala, one of the former high priests, gave a speech in which he described what was happening to Jerusalem because of the Zealots:

 

[summerville]

Zealots - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry

The Zealots were a political movement in 1st-century Second Temple Judaism, which sought to incite the people of Judea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the Holy Land by force of arms, most notably during the First Jewish–Roman War (66–70). Zealotry was the term used by Josephus for a "fourth sect" or "fourth Jewish philosophy" during this period.

 

[ewq1938]

The locusts weren't Romans.

I thought you said they were, "These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period."

 

[summerville]

I thought you said they were, "These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period."

The Romans weren't there.. They were chased out in 66 AD and didn't return until 70 AD.

It helps to read Josephus as you go. I know that I was left with many false impressions about the zealots in particular.

 

[Davy]

The Romans weren't there.. They were chased out in 66 AD and didn't return until 70 AD.

It helps to read Josephus as you go. I know that I was left with many false impressions about the zealots in particular.

In a previous post you said you were not a follower of Historicism nor Preterism, yet that is exactly the bent you are showing in your posts, and also it would appear your whole approach to The Bible itself as just being a work of history, and not containing prophecy of events still future to us.

 

[ewq1938]

The Romans weren't there.

Of course they weren't but certain ignorant (PP) preterists think and teach that THEY were and try to match the hair and gold helmets to them but ignore the not killing and lion teeth parts.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Yes I believe the Word of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls were a thousand years earlier than the text we had before they were found, proving the text was correct.
Why do you do doubt the Word of God ? and hold Josephus almost canonical ?
From Wikipedia
Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew-language manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic textsdating to the 10th century CE, such as the Aleppo Codex.[503] Today, the oldest known extant manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date from approximately the 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back a full thousand years, to the 2nd century BCE.[504] This was a significant discovery for Old Testament scholars who anticipated that the Dead Sea Scrolls would either affirm or repudiate the reliability of textual transmission from the original texts to the oldest Masoretic texts at hand. The discovery demonstrated the unusual accuracy of transmission over a thousand-year period, rendering it reasonable to believe that current Old Testament texts are reliable copies of the original works.

Those allegations where proven false.
The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls

The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Torah
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Writings
The Antiquity of the Scriptures: The Prophets

"This creates some moral dilemma. Because the same authors writing the famous commandment “Thou shalt not bear false witness” (Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20) would have then “borne false witness” by writing repeatedly that Moses wrote the Torah (e.g. Exodus 17:14; Numbers 33:2; Deuteronomy 31:9). And it would throw under the bus the rest of the biblical books and authors that say likewise (e.g. Joshua, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Malachi).

A common belief (faith) amoung secularists. No historical data to verify it though.

Friendly reminder that;

1) The bible's contents are infallible and God-breathed; the interpretations, compilations and translations may not always be thanks to VERY fallible mankind.

2) Men have and will continue to try and get away with as much as possible to suit their narrative, as the Gospel has been perverted into a tool used for power(organized religion)rather than Faith many times...and will continue to do so. Need I remind you all that the KJV was written with a political bias, Martin Luther almost removed several beloved books in the Bible that disagreed with his view(God bless him for not following through) and the Catholic church once executed a man(William Tyndale)for translation the bible so people could read the scripture themselves. That's not even including the gnostic gospels or the Christians who believe Paul(of all people)is a false apostle.

3) Not all denominations even share the same biblical canon. We, the Protestant group, are actually missing quite a few books that are included in Orthodox and Catholic Scripture.

4) If the bible clashes with history, something is off. Either our interpretations are wrong, our translations are wrong--something is wrong because God is not the author of confusion. Y'all sometimes act like anything outside of the bible(even if it's historical) is 'secular'. Do you not think God owns every part of our history and our very being? He created our reality; it is one of the best measuring tools, as it is unchanging and cannot be influenced by man.

5) If you know God, you don't need confusion OT prophecies and a literal reading of parts of scripture to believe in his Sovereignty. His handiwork and influence are visible everywhere, and there are many things science and optimistic nihilism will never be able to explain.

6) Adding to the previous point, it is my personal opinion that even when you feel like you could be wrong and nothing makes any logical sense, having Faith in God still is a true show of faith. It's easy to be a believer when everyone is agreeing with you and you believe you've got God and religion all figured out...but the life of a Christian is a balancing act; the constant struggle and 'running the race' as Paul said.

 

[summerville]

In a previous post you said you were not a follower of Historicism nor Preterism, yet that is exactly the bent you are showing in your posts, and also it would appear your whole approach to The Bible itself as just being a work of history, and not containing prophecy of events still future to us.

It might be helpful to study up on what a prophet did. There were schools for prophets all over Palestine from the time of Samuel. They were like news analysts... keen observers who watched the course of events carefully.. and they were the conscience of the community. So, typically they scold the Jews saying if you don't shape up, this will happen. They weren't like gypsy fortunetellers. They weren't magical or supernatural.

In a general sense, a prophet is a person who speaks God’s truth to others. The English word prophet comes from the Greek word prophetes, which can mean “one who speaks forth” or “advocate.”

 

[Davy]

It might be helpful to study up on what a prophet did. There were schools for prophets all over Palestine from the time of Samuel. They were like news analysts... keen observers who watched the course of events carefully.. and they were the conscience of the community. So, typically they scold the Jews saying if you don't shape up, this will happen. They weren't like gypsy fortunetellers. They weren't magical or supernatural.

In a general sense, a prophet is a person who speaks God’s truth to others. The English word prophet comes from the Greek word prophetes, which can mean “one who speaks forth” or “advocate.”

Gypsy fortunetellers???

That is your opinion of God giving HIS WORD through His chosen prophets? You do realize that talk like yours points directly towards 'humanist secularism', and away from God's Holy Writ, don't you?

Based on your above definition of what a prophet is, it could mean a simple journalist working for news media! What absolute balderdash!!!

 

[summerville]

Gypsy fortunetellers???

That is your opinion of God giving HIS WORD through His chosen prophets? You do realize that talk like yours points directly towards 'humanist secularism', and away from God's Holy Writ, don't you?

Based on your above definition of what a prophet is, it could mean a simple journalist working for news media! What absolute balderdash!!!

Why do you suppose there are so many failed prophecies?

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Gypsy fortunetellers???

That is your opinion of God giving HIS WORD through His chosen prophets? You do realize that talk like yours points directly towards 'humanist secularism', and away from God's Holy Writ, don't you?

Based on your above definition of what a prophet is, it could mean a simple journalist working for news media! What absolute balderdash!!!

Did you miss the part that said "They weren't like gypsy fortunetellers", or what?

Pretty sure Summer was eluding to the fact that(from what I understood of their post)back then, a lot of Prophets must've observed events and warned people who weren't following God's word. This could've been either by comparing it to what God had already said or, in my own opinion, it could've also been through direct revelation; I'm sure there were minor prophets in the bible that wasn't explicitly named(thinking of the verse where Paul references to women 'prophesizing' in the church of Corinth).


Also, if your best response involves pulling the 'human secularism' card and accusing someone of taking away from God's word when they bring up a point that isn't considered 'mainstream' or 'popular' by the majority instead of taking delight in potentially learning more about the MOSTLY UNSPOKEN history of God's people...perhaps you aren't cut out for debating.

 

[Davy]

Why do you suppose there are so many failed prophecies?

There are many failed prophecies because there are many FALSE prophets, just as there were among old Israel, and the Apostles warned those in Christ about this for the end...

2 Peter 2:1-3
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
KJV

This doesn't mean the prophecies written in God's Word have failed, not at all.

Your ultimate question on this matter really should be, 'why does God allow false prophets and false prophecies'?

And the answer to that is easy -- to see IF we will listen to Him, in His Word, or not. Simple as that.

 

[Davy]

Did you miss the part that said "They weren't like gypsy fortunetellers", or what?

Pretty sure Summer was eluding to the fact that(from what I understood of their post)back then, a lot of Prophets must've observed events and warned people who weren't following God's word. This could've been either by comparing it to what God had already said or, in my own opinion, it could've also been through direct revelation; I'm sure there were minor prophets in the bible that wasn't explicitly named(thinking of the verse where Paul references to women 'prophesizing' in the church of Corinth).

Also, if your best response involves pulling the 'human secularism' card and accusing someone of taking away from God's word when they bring up a point that isn't considered 'mainstream' or 'popular' by the majority instead of taking delight in potentially learning more about the MOSTLY UNSPOKEN history of God's people...perhaps you aren't cut out for debating.

ANY kind of inference that the idea of God's prophets in The Bible is like "gypsy fortunetellers" is essentially blasphemy against God's Word and particularly The Holy Spirit...

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV