The 10 Horns of Revelation 17:12-14

[summerville]

This author has done an intensive study of Josephus alongside the OT. Offered as food for thought. HIs information on the "beast" is also quite interesting

Here’s a list of these 10 generals and the territories they were to oversee in preparation for war with Rome:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion (Governor of Jerusalem)
2. Ananus, the high priest (Governor of Jerusalem)
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests (Idumaea)
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest (Idumaea)
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea (Idumaea)
6. Joseph, the son of Simon (Jericho)
7. Manasseh (Perea)
8. John, the Esscue (toparchy of Thamna; “Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus”)
9. John, the son of Matthias (toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene)
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias (both the Galilees; “Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command”)

Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1 ...
Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)month-locust-invasion-in-70-ad-revelation-91-11
Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

 

[Douggg]

This author has done an intensive study of Josephus alongside the OT. Offered as food for thought. HIs information on the "beast" is also quite interesting

Here’s a list of these 10 generals and the territories they were to oversee in preparation for war with Rome:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion (Governor of Jerusalem)
2. Ananus, the high priest (Governor of Jerusalem)
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests (Idumaea)
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest (Idumaea)
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea (Idumaea)
6. Joseph, the son of Simon (Jericho)
7. Manasseh (Perea)
8. John, the Esscue (toparchy of Thamna; “Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus”)
9. John, the son of Matthias (toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene)
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias (both the Galilees; “Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command”)

Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1 ...
Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)month-locust-invasion-in-70-ad-revelation-91-11
Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

I don't think any of those person's were significant leaders to part of the ten kings. "Their" kingdom was what?

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Also concerning the ten kings, in Daniel 7, who was the little horn person? Nero did not come up among those ten kings.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[summerville]

I don't think any of those person's were significant leaders to part of the ten kings. "Their" kingdom was what?

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Also concerning the ten kings, in Daniel 7, who was the little horn person? Nero did not come up among those ten kings.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

They were generals..

The context of Daniel 7 is oppression of the Jews by the Seleucid ruler Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who outlawed Jewish customs and built an altar to Zeus in the Temple (the "abomination of desolation"), sparking a popular uprising which led to the retaking of Jerusalem and the Temple by Judas Maccabeus.

Chapter 7 introduces the theme of the "four kingdoms", which is that Israel would come under four successive world-empires, each worse than the last, until finally God would end oppression and introduce the eternal kingdom.

Daniel 7 - Wikipedia

Genre[edit]
The Book of Daniel is an apocalypse, a literary genre in which a heavenly reality is revealed to a human recipient. Apocalypses are characterized by visions, symbolism, an other-worldly mediator, an emphasis on cosmic events, angels and demons, and pseudonymity (false authorship).

Apocalypses were common from 300 BC to AD 100, not only among Jews and Christians, but Greeks, Romans, Persians and Egyptians.

Daniel, the book's hero, is a representative apocalyptic seer, the recipient of the divine revelation: has learned the wisdom of the Babylonian magicians and surpassed them, because his God is the true source of knowledge. Daniel is one of the maskilim, the wise, whose task is to teach righteousness. The book is also an eschatology, meaning a divine revelation concerning the end of the present age, a moment in which God will intervene in history to usher in the final kingdom.

 

[summerville]

Then Daniel was further shown that the male goat would grow “very great” and “strong,” but that four notable horns would take the place of the one horn (verse 8). Then a little horn would come out of one of the four horns and would grow “exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land” (verse 9).

This little horn would challenge the host of heaven (verse 10), take away the daily sacrifices and cast down the place of God’s sanctuary (verse 11), and “cast truth down to the ground” (verse 12).

Daniel 2: Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece/Macedonia

Gabriel let Daniel know that the ram with the two horns represented the kings of Media and Persia (verse 20) and that the male goat was the kingdom of Greece (verse 21).

The large horn was the first king (whom we know to be Alexander the Great), and we know from history that the four horns that later came up in its place (verse 22) were four generals of Alexander the Great (Cassander, Ptolemy, Seleucus, and Lysimachus) who ruled over separate territories in that kingdom.

Verses 23-26 go into detail about the little horn that “grew exceedingly,” who we know to be Antiochus Epiphanes.

It’s important to notice the key time markers that Gabriel used as he described the rise and fall of Antiochus, the Hellenistic Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175-164 BC:

 

[Douggg]

@summerville , I think I jumped to a wrong conclusion, thinking you are advocating the preterist view. Instead, are you advocating the historist view? Could you please clarify?

btw, I fashioned by screen-name information to let everyone know that I am a futurist, non-dispensationalist, anytime rapture view. If everyone did similar, it would really help in these discussions.

 

[summerville]

@summerville , I think I jumped to a wrong conclusion, thinking you are advocating the preterist view. Instead, are you advocating the historist view? Could you please clarify?

btw, I fashioned by screen-name information to let everyone know that I am a futurist, non-dispensationalist, anytime rapture view. If everyone did similar, it would really help in these discussions.

I am not a preterist or a historist.. I am just interested in understanding what the scriptures meant 2000 years ago.

 

[summerville]

Beast of Revelation

I used to believe that the beast of Revelation was Rome/Nero. During the last half of 2016, however, I came to believe that Zealot-led Israel was “the beast” in the book of Revelation that partnered with the false prophets of first century Israel. The following is an outline for a series I’m creating on this subject, which covers various passages in Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

when you do not allow the bible to interpret itself with history (prophecy is history in advance history is prophecy fulfilled) anything can be developed with misinterpretation supplied by man.

 

[summerville]

when you do not allow the bible to interpret itself with history (prophecy is history in advance history is prophecy fulfilled) anything can be developed with misinterpretation supplied by man.

Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias

 

[Douggg]

Beast of Revelation

I used to believe that the beast of Revelation was Rome/Nero. During the last half of 2016, however, I came to believe that Zealot-led Israel was “the beast” in the book of Revelation that partnered with the false prophets of first century Israel. The following is an outline for a series I’m creating on this subject, which covers various passages in Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20.

Too many factors in Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20 to put the ten kings into the first century.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Vaticinium ex eventu is a form of hindsight bias

it is all about worship

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

 

[Berean Tim]

This author has done an intensive study of Josephus alongside the OT. Offered as food for thought. HIs information on the "beast" is also quite interesting

Here’s a list of these 10 generals and the territories they were to oversee in preparation for war with Rome:

1. Joseph, the son of Gorion (Governor of Jerusalem)
2. Ananus, the high priest (Governor of Jerusalem)
3. Jesus, the son of Sapphias, one of the high priests (Idumaea)
4. Eleazar, the son of Ananias, the high priest (Idumaea)
5. Niger, the then governor of Idumea (Idumaea)
6. Joseph, the son of Simon (Jericho)
7. Manasseh (Perea)
8. John, the Esscue (toparchy of Thamna; “Lydda was also added to his portion, and Joppa, and Emmaus”)
9. John, the son of Matthias (toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabattene)
10. Josephus, the son of Matthias (both the Galilees; “Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command”)

Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1 ...
Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)month-locust-invasion-in-70-ad-revelation-91-11
Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

Which 3 were uprooted and replaced by the Little Horn ? The ten Kings do not war against the Beast , they are aligned with the Beast.
Revelation 17
15And the angelc said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

 

[summerville]

it is all about worship

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Vaticinium ex eventu means prophecy written after the fact.. That's why the OT was always a work in progress. It was subject to endless redactions, amendments and rewrites.

 

[summerville]

Which 3 were uprooted and replaced by the Little Horn ? The ten Kings do not war against the Beast , they are aligned with the Beast.
Revelation 17
15And the angelc said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”

“The Beast of Revelation Was Zealot-Led Israel.” The introduction and outline to this series can be seen here.

The "beast" may have been the savage zealots who terrorized Jerusalem and the countryside for so many years.

Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1 ...
Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)month-locust-invasion-in-70-ad-revelation-91-11
Sep 19, 2014 · And they had HAIR AS THE HAIR OF WOMEN, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions” These “crowns like gold” and the “hair as the hair of women” is a precise description of the Roman helmets worn at that particular period.

 

[Berean Tim]

Vaticinium ex eventu means prophecy written after the fact.. That's why the OT was always a work in progress. It was subject to endless redactions, amendments and rewrites.

I don't know what to say except
2Peter
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
There were no redactions, amendments or rewrites

 

[summerville]

I don't know what to say except
1Peter
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
There were no redactions, amendments or rewrites

Absolutely there were redactions and amendments.. Israel and Judea had different stories that were cobbled together during the time of King Omri.. His ambition was to reunite Israel and Judea into one kingdom. Didn't work.. For one thing Israel and Judea despised each other.

 

[Berean Tim]

Absolutely there were redactions and amendments.. Israel and Judea had different stories that were cobbled together during the time of King Omri.. His ambition was to reunite Israel and Judea into one kingdom. Didn't work.. For one thing Israel and Judea despised each other.

2 Peter
16For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son,i with whom I am well pleased,” 18we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Vaticinium ex eventu means prophecy written after the fact.. That's why the OT was always a work in progress. It was subject to endless redactions, amendments and rewrites.

I am out of this thread (ball game) as it is my opinion you are playing in left field

 

[summerville]

I don't know what to say except
2Peter
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
There were no redactions, amendments or rewrites

If that's what you believe, the facts don't matter and never will.

I am out of this thread (ball game) as it is my opinion you are playing in left field

Its probably way too much for you to read.


Jewish tradition holds that all five books of the Pentateuch were originally written by Moses sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE, by the 17th century leading scholars had rejected Mosaic authorship.

The Pentateuch is seen as a compilation of short, independent narratives, which were gradually brought together into larger units in two editorial phases: the Deuteronomic and the Priestly phases.

Scholars frequently use these newer hypotheses in combination with each other, making it difficult to classify contemporary theories as strictly one or another.

The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, likely completed during the Persian period (539-333 BCE)

Composition of the Torah - Wikipedia

 

[Berean Tim]

If that's what you believe, the facts don't matter and never will.


Its probably way too much for you to read.


Jewish tradition holds that all five books of the Pentateuch were originally written by Moses sometime in the 2nd millennium BCE, by the 17th century leading scholars had rejected Mosaic authorship.

The Pentateuch is seen as a compilation of short, independent narratives, which were gradually brought together into larger units in two editorial phases: the Deuteronomic and the Priestly phases.

Scholars frequently use these newer hypotheses in combination with each other, making it difficult to classify contemporary theories as strictly one or another.

The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, likely completed during the Persian period (539-333 BCE)

Composition of the Torah - Wikipedia

Yes I believe the Word of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls were a thousand years earlier than the text we had before they were found, proving the text was correct.
Why do you do doubt the Word of God ? and hold Josephus almost canonical ?
From Wikipedia
Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew-language manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic textsdating to the 10th century CE, such as the Aleppo Codex.[503] Today, the oldest known extant manuscripts of the Masoretic Text date from approximately the 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back a full thousand years, to the 2nd century BCE.[504] This was a significant discovery for Old Testament scholars who anticipated that the Dead Sea Scrolls would either affirm or repudiate the reliability of textual transmission from the original texts to the oldest Masoretic texts at hand. The discovery demonstrated the unusual accuracy of transmission over a thousand-year period, rendering it reasonable to believe that current Old Testament texts are reliable copies of the original works.