Should pastors carry a gun ?

[EugenSpierer]

Hi,
I know this has been debated a lot but I'd like to raise it nevertheless in light of certain events happening in my country.
In the US, the second amendment guarantees the right to carry a gun to everyone eligible, including pastors. But should they?
It seems carrying a gun conveys something that maybe a pastor shouldn't.
What do you think ?

 

[anewman1993]

I wouldn't use the term "should", as no rule applies to everyone, but I will say there is nothing wrong with it. Remember in the bible when one of the apposles cut the guys ear off? Jesus didn't rebuke him for carrying a sword, or even so much defending him, as much as it was time and place, if carrying a sword was a problem then I feel like jesus would have told him at some earlier point when he put it on. Guns are a little different then swords but serve the same basic purpose. I personally don't have a problem with preachers carrying a gun, why would I? I mean, by and large they are logical people not given to extreme emotional outburst. I have a friend who is a minister and carries, the pastor at one of my past church carries, and had people he knew in the audience who did as well. Its just kinda a fact, this is a dangerous time we live in, and sometimes people want to hurt pastors, is it rare? Yea, is it unheard of? No.

 

[BryanW92]

I carry and I would continue to carry if I was a pastor. Even if you are willing to die, you might be called upon to protect someone else.

 

[chapmic]

I don't think a pastor should have a gun, God protects and provides. The goal is not to try to survive on this Earth as long as possible through our own power. The goal is to Love and bring others to Christ so we can all take part in his glory which lasts for eternity.

 

[abysmul]

What makes a pastor different than any other Christian? If they want to, so be it.

 

[RDKirk]

What does it take to "carry a gun?"

To be more precise, what does it take to be truly useful with a gun?

Most jurisdictions--in order to provide as much 2nd Amendment liberty as possible--have a very low bar to purchasing and carrying a gun. I took my daughter to the shooting range, and it only took two sessions before she was able to pass the state requirements for concealed carry.

But I've been through enough real-life experience, plus training and discussion with US Special Forces guys, to know that the legal bare minimum is nowhere near the real-world proficiency requirement, either in training or in the continuous psychological attitude a person must have to be truly useful with a gun.

It's common among concealed carry trainers to state, "Design your wardrobe around carrying and using the gun." In fact, though, one must orient his entire psychological outlook around carrying and using the gun in order to be truly useful with it.

Look at what we're really talking about here: A soldier or a policeman trains primarily for situations in which they initiate the confrontation: Soldiers train primarily to attack, police officers train primarily for situations they initiate, such as traffic stops. Most do not train for the majority of their confrontations to have taken them by surprise.

Yet, that is precisely the specific situation a civilian ostensively carries a gun in preparation to meet: A situation where he is not expecting a confrontation and is caught by it with very little warning.

The better training teaches people who are constantly armed that they must be constantly prepared for armed confrontation. The old expert in this training, Jeff Cooper, originated color codes to identify condition of mental preparedness: White, yellow, orange, red--in order of increasing readiness. He said that anyone who is armed should constantly be in at least "Condition Yellow"--viewing every situation as one in which he may need to shoot someone. Otherwise, the person carrying the firearm is actually depending on an attacker making several grave mistakes to give him time to get up from Condition White to a useful defensive condition.

I have had this confirmed to me by some Special Forces acquaintences who say they picked up the habit of constantly evaluating every situation and every person in terms of "I may have to kill this guy" or "I may have to kill someone here" and are constantly forming tactical prepartions in their heads as the environment changes around them. They tell me that they must consciously "turn off" that trained tendency.

In addition, to become proficient enough with the weapon to react constructively in surprise situations means training often enough, hard enough, and realistically enough to put it into "muscle memory." That's a lot of training--in fact, it's been scientifically discovered that a person can't go more than three or four days before "detraining" begins (ask any top-level athlete or muscian)--so twice-a-week realistic training is what is actually necessary for top-notch skill maintenance.

I used to carry a weapon back in the 80s--that was when I was doing this training and having those conversations. But as I became more Spiritually aware, I had to ask myself if I wanted to "give myself to the gun" to such an extent in mental outlook and constant physical training that I had to evaluate each person I saw in terms of "that guy may become a threat--I may have to shoot him."

Could I prepare myself daily for evangelism or witnessing--be in constant study and prayer and view every person as a potential brother in Christ--and simultaneously prepare myself daily to be ready and able to "take out" that same person? Both require "giving oneself over" to it to be truly effective.

Can I be top-notch with both the Gospel and a gun? For myself, the answer was, "No." I don't believe it's really any different for anyone else: It's always a decision of being top-notch with one and ineffective with the other.

 

[BryanW92]

Yet, that is precisely the specific situation a civilian ostensively carries a gun in preparation to meet: A situation where he is not expecting a confrontation and is caught by it with very little warning.

RD,

The "situation" is going to come upon you whether you are armed or not, prepared or not. The unarmed person needs to learn to be prepared as much as the armed person. Cooper's conditions are a good thing for any person to know and understand because I see women (and men) every day walking through a parking lot, reading their smart phone, no keys in hand, and almost brushing the corners of vans as they walk past them. They are victims waiting to happen. As I ride my bicycle, I see women jogging with their earbuds in their ears and iPod cranked up who freak out when I ride past them and they never even knew I was there, despite intentionally ratcheting my gears and even ringing the little bell I mounted just for that reason. They are victims waiting to happen.

The criminal chooses the victim. He chooses the time and place. He chooses the mode of attack, and his goals. He chooses whether his victim will be a witness after the crime. Being aware, "giving yourself to the gun", is your best defense even if you don't own a gun.

I have had to use my gun twice in the past 30 years to stop a crime. Both times, all it took was the display of the weapon and nothing else happened. But, it could have required taking a shot and I was prepared for that.

Having a prepared mind does require that you always have a plan to kill every person you encounter, but it also requires that you have an escape route and a friendly encouter as well, smiling and acknowledging their existence. In 30 years of carrying a gun, I've smiled at thousands of people for every one who got to see my gun.

 

[abysmul]

Can I be top-notch with both the Gospel and a gun? For myself, the answer was, "No." I don't believe it's really any different for anyone else: It's always a decision of being top-notch with one and ineffective with the other.

You are indeed the person to make that decision for yourself, you have no right to try and bind that on "anyone else".

 

[miamited]

He eugenspierer,

Only if they are afraid that God isn't big enough to watch over their way.

I'm a psalm 1 kind of believer. I have never owned, nor never will, a firearm. I buy my meat at the grocers and as far as protection, I've been promised that God watches over the way of the righteous.

However, I have no problem with anyone who wants to own a hunting rifle, although I know that for several centuries man did hunt meat without one. But, today we're pretty spoiled and shooting one's food is so much easier. Nothing much easier than sitting in a blind and shooting some animal that walks within range, if one desires to hunt their own meat.

So, each will do what he has purposed in his or her heart to do and I have purposed that if anyone should ever threaten my life or my family's life with a firearm, either God will step in and prevent it or I will soon be joyful with Him.

I'm 60 years old and God has watched over my way perfectly well now for all those years. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I can assure you it won't be me carrying a firearm. Psalm one promises me that God is watching over my way.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[abysmul]

I've been promised that God watches over the way of the righteous.

I have a question Ted: are you saying all of the defenseless men, women, and children who have been raped, tortured, and brutally murdered throughout history were not righteous? Or they were and that was God's way of watching over them? I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

I understand this can be difficult and uncomfortable to talk about, but you'd just stand by and let someone rape/torture/murder your friends/family/neighbors?

 

[BryanW92]

I have a question Ted: are you saying all of the defenseless men, women, and children who have been raped, tortured, and brutally murdered throughout history were not righteous? Or they were and that was God's way of watching over them? I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

I understand this can be difficult and uncomfortable to talk about, but you'd just stand by and let someone rape/torture/murder your friends/family/neighbors?

When I was a teenager, they showed "The Winds of War" as a miniseries on TV. Back in those days, most people in the US didn't know much about the Holocaust, but in one episode the family of someone in the show had been sent to a Nazi concentration camp. They showed the people being forced to strip naked and then stand in line to enter the shower room to be gassed to death.

I decided that I would never die as a helpless victim like that, whether it be at the hands of a regime in Washington DC, or at the hands of invaders, or as the victim of some criminal who just doesn't like loose ends. The same God that watches over me gave me a mind, hands, and the ability to use tools. One of those tools is a gun. Would anyone stand in front of a tree, expecting God to saw it down and chop it into firewood?

 

[miamited]

I have a question Ted: are you saying all of the defenseless men, women, and children who have been raped, tortured, and brutally murdered throughout history were not righteous? Or they were and that was God's way of watching over them? I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

I understand this can be difficult and uncomfortable to talk about, but you'd just stand by and let someone rape/torture/murder your friends/family/neighbors?

Hi abysmul,

I can't speak for the hearts of others. I don't know what their position might have been before God. What I'm saying is that for me and my house, we will trust the Lord. If that means that I or one of my loved ones is raped, tortured or brutally murdered, I will trust the Lord. If I find that while God watches over me He allows someone to treat me in such a way as you describe, I will trust the Lord.

As I said, each one must decide in their own heart what seems right to them. For me, I will trust that the Lord will watch over my way. One thing that may make a great difference between you and I is that I don't see this life as something worth fighting for. It is the next life that I am seeking. I will live every day that the Lord gives me and when my day has come to depart this place, I am ready. I'm not willing to kill or wound someone else in order to save this life that God has given me. I believe that if God wants me to live another day, then He is perfectly capable of seeing to it that I do without my having to 'protect' myself. I love God and He loves me and however I depart from this life - I love God and He loves me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

When I was a teenager, they showed "The Winds of War" as a miniseries on TV. Back in those days, most people in the US didn't know much about the Holocaust, but in one episode the family of someone in the show had been sent to a Nazi concentration camp. They showed the people being forced to strip naked and then stand in line to enter the shower room to be gassed to death.

I decided that I would never die as a helpless victim like that, whether it be at the hands of a regime in Washington DC, or at the hands of invaders, or as the victim of some criminal who just doesn't like loose ends. The same God that watches over me gave me a mind, hands, and the ability to use tools. One of those tools is a gun. Would anyone stand in front of a tree, expecting God to saw it down and chop it into firewood?

Hi bryan,

Well, you and I will just have to disagree that God gave us the firearm as a 'tool'. As far as I am concerned, man created the firearm. Just as man generally turns everything that God gave us for good into something to be used for evil.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[South Bound]

Hi,
I know this has been debated a lot but I'd like to raise it nevertheless in light of certain events happening in my country.
In the US, the second amendment guarantees the right to carry a gun to everyone eligible, including pastors. But should they?
It seems carrying a gun conveys something that maybe a pastor shouldn't.
What do you think ?

Why shouldn't pastors carry guns? Are pastors and their families and churches immune from violence? Should pastors not wear seatbelts, as well?

Hi abysmul,

I can't speak for the hearts of others. I don't know what their position might have been before God. What I'm saying is that for me and my house, we will trust the Lord. If that means that I or one of my loved ones is raped, tortured or brutally murdered, I will trust the Lord.

So, by that logic, if a loved one is sick, would you take them to a doctor? Or would you just "trust the Lord"?

 

[abysmul]

So, by that logic, if a loved one is sick, would you take them to a doctor? Or would you just "trust the Lord"?

Why mow the grass? Why wash clothes? Why go buy groceries? Why have a smoke alarm? Why have a job? Why have a fire extinguisher? Why stop at stop signs? Really, why do anything at all? Why not just sit and pray 100% of the time and let God take care of everything?

Where is the line? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really do not understand.

 

[miamited]

Hi southbond,

Well, I'm not one to trust doctors much either as far as long term care. Sure, I'll go to a doctor if I have a cut or a broken limb, but as far as the inner workings of my body and the natural progression of death, yes, I have pretty much the same attitude.

For abysmul,

I cut my grass because I want my lawn to look good and be healthy, but for centuries people didn't. I also cut my lawn because in my town, as with many others, there are zoning laws on the books that require it. I wash my clothes because I want them to be clean and I'm pretty sure that mankind has always washed clothing. God even prescribes that for those who have had infections or other skin ailments. I buy groceries because I want to eat. Even Adam had to pick the fruit. I don't have a smoke alarm. I have a job because God's word says that if a man doesn't work then he doesn't eat. I stop at stop signs because I know that if I am going to use a vehicle for conveyance, then I'm obligated to drive in a reasonable manner. I'm not out to test God.

But look, you guys live your lives the way that seems right to you. The question was asked and I gave my feelings about it. I don't expect that my faith or my understanding of God and who He is and what He will do for me to be accepted by everyone.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[South Bound]

I'll go to a doctor if I have a cut or a broken limb...

Why? Why do you trust God so much that you're OK just standing by and watching an innocent person (your alleged "loved ones", no less!) be raped and murdered, but then, you have no problem going to a doctor for yourself, rather than "trusting God"?

Why the double standard?

 

[South Bound]

Why mow the grass? Why wash clothes? Why go buy groceries? Why have a smoke alarm? Why have a job? Why have a fire extinguisher? Why stop at stop signs? Really, why do anything at all? Why not just sit and pray 100% of the time and let God take care of everything?

Where is the line? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really do not understand.

It sounds like you understand just fine. If one is going to stand by and watch someone raped and murdered because they "trust God", then where is the line?

Why get out of my chair? If God wants me to move, He'll move me. Why eat? If God wants me to eat, He'll feed me. Why work? If God wants me to have money to feed my family, He'll make money magically appear.

 

[abysmul]

A little humor:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]God Will Save Me[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!” [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?” [/FONT]

 

[BryanW92]

Hi bryan,

Well, you and I will just have to disagree that God gave us the firearm as a 'tool'. As far as I am concerned, man created the firearm. Just as man generally turns everything that God gave us for good into something to be used for evil.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Man "created" every tool under the sun. He found ways to harness fire and water. He found ways to move rocks, dig in the ground, fly through the air, and to kill animals that are physically superior to us.

I agree that any tool can be used for evil. They can also be used for good. The tool is neither. It is just an object to be wielded according to what's in the heart of the wielder.