Futurist Only Seal 7 separated to chapter 8, in Revelation

[Douggg]

The scriptures do not say that it is the blood of martyred saints.
Jesus says it is the blood of His enemies.

In Revelation 19, it says neither. A person has to put things together to conclude whose blood it is at that point.

I don't see any scripture that indicates Jesus descending to earth to judge the armies and the wicked in Israel and Bozrah - and then returning to heaven to be joined by the armies of heaven - which include the saints and the angels - to come back to earth again to the Mt. of Olives.

There's a partial truth there but the rest doesn't align. Jesus after His return has a campaign into Edom and then returns to Israel, He is intercepted at Armageddon. If you read Daniel 11, Antichrist is in Egypt and Africa and hears disturbing reports coming from the north and east, that'd be reports coming from Israel and Jordan.

Jesus does not conduct a "campaign". Jesus will move swiftly through those areas like the wind on His way to Jerusalem - not on his way back to heaven.

We are not told in Matthew 24:30a, but at the time of the appearing of the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Jesus garments dipped in the blood of the martyred great tribulation saints to be part of His appearance, as well as holding a sickle in His Hand (from Revelation 14:14), of why the wicked men of the world are about to be judged.

The battles in Daniel 11:40-45 are a prelude to Armageddon. Daniel 11:40-45 are battles between armies of earthly kings (leaders).

In Daniel 11:45, the beast will make his stand in the glorious holy mountain - the temple mount. No-one will be able to help the beast.

Well, because you've chosen to have the trumpets NOT come after the seals you put yourself into a corner, because you still want to stick with Matthew 24:29 meaning the end of the 70th week

Matthew 24:29-30a IS before Jesus coming in power and great glory in the text.

The sixth seal event is in blue. Jesus's return in red.

From AoD setup to verse 29 the sixth seal event, is "the tribulation of those days" - i.e. the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11. Then seeing the Son of Man in heaven, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[shepherdsword]

If you think Revelation 19:1-3 proves the 'rapture', you are wrong.
That vast throng who cry out for vengeance, are all dead people. The martyrs: killed for their faith, their souls allowed at times to cry out. Revelation 6:9-11

The only thing pre-tribbers have going for them is that in Rev 19 we see the wedding supper taking place before the second coming. What is your view on that?

 

[Douggg]

rather than compare scripture to scripture and see that the great tribulation is over by the time of the sixth seal.

The sixth seal event is why the kings of the earth begin to assemble their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16.

After that - but before Jesus descends down to earth - is Revelation 16:17-20, the seventh and last vial of God's wrath of the great tribulation. The global earthquake and great hail.

Use scripture to interpret scripture.

Then - after that final vial of God's wrath of judgment on Babylon in Revelation 16:19, Jesus and His armies of heaven descend to earth. Jesus in the lead ahead of those armies of heaven, sweeps through Israel and Edom, quickly like the wind, executing judgment, on His way to Jerusalem, where He will destroy the beast and the false prophet, and render Satan a terror no more.

 

[Timtofly]

Jamdoc, that timeline sequence of events makes no sense, to have the trumpets and vials after Jesus Returns.

In Revelation 19, at the time of Jesus's return, the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Their kingdom destroyed.

The trumpet and vials take place during the 42 month rule of the beast.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. Revelation 19 is the return after Satan is allowed 100% control of the earth for 42 months. Satan and Jesus do not co-reign for 42 months during the 7th Trumpet's 42 month interruption. Satan, the FP, and the beast are in control for those 42 months.

The AoD is allowed a few days after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding. That is when those in Judaea need to flee from Satan's newly set up kingdom. Revelation 13 splits this week in half. The 2 witnesses begin their campaign against this kingdom. At the end of the 42 months, they are killed. Those 3.5 days they lay dead is the end of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. These 3.5 days are when the 7 vials are poured out. Satan's Babylonian kingdom is being destroyed during these 3.5 days and the 7 vials. That is described in the parenthetical chapters 17 and 18, that covers these 3.5 days. The battle of Armageddon is the one hour all of earth unites and when Adam's flesh comes to an end.

If Satan is not allowed 42 months. The week of the 7th Trumpet ends in the winepress of who is left on that last Sunday, Revelation 14. There will be no Babylonian kingdom set up for 42 months of the AoD. The end will be declared in Revelation 14. Revelation 20 will see Satan bound and the Millennium will start with the sheep and wheat harvested during the Trumpets and Thunders. The final harvest during the GT is the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom. None of Adam's flesh will enter the Millennium. The sheep and wheat are changed and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to live for the next 1,000 years. They will have dozens of generations of human offspring, but not sinners. A child who is born who decides to rebel, disobey, is considered cursed and destroyed at the first act of disobedience. Sin will not be allowed to enter, like Adam's disobedience brought sin into the world.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

Tim, in Matthew 24:29-30, what coming is this one highlighted in red?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

____________________________________________________________

Next question: Tim which of these verses in Matthew 24:29-30 match with the powers of heaven shaken in the sixth seal event?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sixth seal event...

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Douggg]

Those 3.5 days they lay dead is the end of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

You have that wrong, Tim.

In Revelation, the two witnesses come back to life (Revelation 11:11-12) before the 7th trumpet begins to sound (Revelation 11:15).

 

[keras]

The only thing pre-tribbers have going for them is that in Rev 19 we see the wedding supper taking place before the second coming. What is your view on that?

Revelation 19:9 only says; Happy are those who are invited to the Wedding banquet.....
It will take place after Jesus has Returned.

 

[keras]

You have that wrong, Tim.

In Revelation, the two witnesses come back to life (Revelation 11:11-12) before the 7th trumpet begins to sound (Revelation 11:15).

You have when the 2W preach wrong. It is plain that they must be in Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ is in control. During the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
Revelation 11:1-13 is a complete narrative about the 2 Witnesses and Jesus calls them to Him at His Return.

Revelation 11:14 continues the Trumpet sequence from the Sixth Trumpet in Revelation 9:21.

You are also in error about how Jesus got His robe bloodied.
Isaiah 63:3-4.....I trampled on the nations in My anger and their blood splashed my garments.....I resolved on a day of vengeance, the day for redeeming My own people had come.
This Prophecy is a plain reference to the Sixth Seal, when millions will die, but the Lords faithful people will be redeemed. Habakkuk 3:12-13, Psalms 37:39-40

 

[Jamdoc]

In Revelation 19, it says neither. A person has to put things together to conclude whose blood it is at that point.

Here's the difference. I'm using hermeneutics, I'm comparing scripture to scripture. I'm comparing Revelation 14, Revelation 19, and Isaiah 63, and Obadiah together to get a clear revelatory picture of Jesus returning to Earth, and having a bloody campaign through Edom before returning towards Jerusalem that stains His clothes red. It matches. It shows Jesus in the clouds before the wrath of God, during the wrath of God it's blood up to the Horse's bridle, there's a campaign of vengeance beginning at the Day of the Lord against Edom in Obadiah, and Isaiah 63 has Jesus coming from the direction of Edom covered in blood and Revelation 19 has John seeing Jesus on Earth on a white horse covered in blood.

It's a puzzle, and I'm using scripture with scripture to find the pieces and put them together.

You on the other hand, use 1 section of scripture, and then just make up the details that aren't explained in that section of scripture to be something that sounds good to you out of your own imagination.

NOWHERE in scripture does it say that Jesus' clothes are stained with the blood of martyrs, just like nowhere does the scripture say that the blood is symbolic for the blood He shed for us on the cross the way Amillennialists will say.

What scripture does say is that Jesus stains His clothes with blood from the blood of His enemies in Edom, and it's before Isaiah meets Him, and before John sees Him in Revelation 19.

I don't see any scripture that indicates Jesus descending to earth to judge the armies and the wicked in Israel and Bozrah - and then returning to heaven to be joined by the armies of heaven - which include the saints and the angels - to come back to earth again to the Mt. of Olives.

I already said. Jesus does not go back up to Heaven. Jesus is already on Earth, and the saints rejoin Him at Revelation 19. Jesus doesn't show up in Revelation 19 even though there is a scene in heaven, He's not shown until the heavens open up. There's saints, there's angels, there's the 24 elders, there's the 4 beasts, there's the Angel that's been explaining things to John, there's John, there's God the Father on the throne.
But unlike Revelation 4, 5, and 7, there's no Lamb.

Compare this from Revelation 7:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

So, separating out the characters in the heavenly scene. You have the saints, you have the throne/God on the throne (God the Father is NEVER shown off His throne), you have the Lamb (Jesus), you have the angels, you have the 24 elders, and you have the four beasts/Cherubim.

Now, I'm going to color code the scene in Heaven in Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

So Jesus is talked about, but He's not mentioned as actually being there. instead of them worshiping God on the throne and the Lamb, as in Revelation 7, they just worship God on the throne... why?

and I will say because Jesus is not present. He is on Earth.

Jesus does not conduct a "campaign". Jesus will move swiftly through those areas like the wind on His way to Jerusalem - not on his way back to heaven.

Obadiah disagrees, Isaiah 63 disagrees. and I already mentioned it's not on the way back to Heaven. There is one second coming, but it is earlier than you think, and more involved than you think. Isaiah 62:11, His work is set before Him. That is, when He comes back, there is work to be done.

We are not told in Matthew 24:30a, but at the time of the appearing of the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Jesus garments dipped in the blood of the martyred great tribulation saints to be part of His appearance, as well as holding a sickle in His Hand (from Revelation 14:14), of why the wicked men of the world are about to be judged.

again with the eisegesis. The whole concept of tribulation saints is eisegesis to begin with, and your idea of the blood on Jesus raiment discards what scripture says it is for something out of your imagination.

The battles in Daniel 11:40-45 are a prelude to Armageddon. Daniel 11:40-45 are battles between armies of earthly kings (leaders).

They are, that's why I cited them. when Jesus returns, Antichrist is in Africa, laying waste to Egypt and capturing Libya and Ethiopia, then there's trouble in the north east, that is the direction of Israel.

In Daniel 11:45, the beast will make his stand in the glorious holy mountain - the temple mount. No-one will be able to help the beast.

Yup, and His armies will be at Armageddon, outside of Jerusalem. Here's a part I'm a little bit confused about. as Armageddon is north of Jerusalem, but Edom is south, so Jesus comes from Edom, on the way to Jerusalem northward, but then continues northward to Armageddon?

From AoD setup to verse 29 the sixth seal event, is "the tribulation of those days" - i.e. the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11. Then seeing the Son of Man in heaven, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You say you don't equate the tribulation to the wrath of God, but then you do it again.
For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It's earlier than the end of the 70th week, otherwise it's not shortened.
Jesus isn't talking about no flesh being saved from unbelievers. Jesus is talking about believer's flesh being saved. IE there's going to be Christians still alive when He returns. That's part of where Paul even got his rapture doctrine from I believe.

 

[Jamdoc]

The sixth seal event is why the kings of the earth begin to assemble their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16.

After that - but before Jesus descends down to earth - is Revelation 16:17-20, the seventh and last vial of God's wrath of the great tribulation. The global earthquake and great hail.

Use scripture to interpret scripture.

Then - after that final vial of God's wrath of judgment on Babylon in Revelation 16:19, Jesus and His armies of heaven descend to earth. Jesus in the lead ahead of those armies of heaven, sweeps through Israel and Edom, quickly like the wind, executing judgment, on His way to Jerusalem, where He will destroy the beast and the false prophet, and render Satan a terror no more.

You're doing the equation again of tribulation to God's wrath.
That is chief of your errors.

also, here's an error that I don't even know if you realize it.
If Jesus descends to the Mount of Olives, as prophecied, how is Edom on the way to Jerusalem? The Mount of Olives is just outside of Jerusalem.
So whether you realize it or not,
you can see that Jesus lands on the mount of Olives, mounts a campaign in Edom, and then comes BACK to Jerusalem.

Now, a little sanctified imagination here I admit, but here's something I've been considering in Daniel 11, which talks about all these campaigns, the WHY Edom breaks away from Antichrist's grip, and WHY Egypt, Libya, and Cush have to be brought back under control.

Daniel 11

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

So first off, this is the Antichrist shortly after polluting the sanctuary, he exalts himself above God, and divides the land of Israel for gain. In Obadiah, Jordan/Edom is shown to participate in this division.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

So, Egypt attacks him and Jordan breaks away from him after this declaration of being above God.
Why? After the abomination of desolation, why are Muslim nations breaking away from Antichrist?

It's the claim to be God.
Here's where the sanctified imagination comes into play, to explain why these facts happen. We know the facts from scripture, they break away.

But why they break away, now that's profound.
It's because prior to the Abomination of Desolation, Muslims believe that the Antichrist is the Mahdi, afterall, he leads them to take over Israel, just as the Qur'an says he would.
But after declaring himself to be God? Muslims will break away, it's the highest of blasphemies.

Egypt will fight, and while Antichrist has moved south against Egypt and Africa, Ammon, Moab, and Edom (Jordan) breaks away without a fight.

However, they still participated in the division of God's land, still participated in the scattering and taking captive of Israel, and if man will not bring war against Edom, Jesus will. It's an even graver crime for Edom, because Esau was Jacob's brother. Jesus wipes out all the descendants of Esau forever.

That last part, is again fact no longer imagination. That's the book of Obadiah.

Short book, seemingly generic..
but when you put it into context of the 2nd coming, and Daniel 11 and Isaiah 63? Profound.
I should thank you for bringing the discussion that actually opened that book up to me. Prior to now? I didn't get it.

The Holy Spirit only seems to guide me and explain scripture to me when I am prompted by other people's questions.

all I can do is yield when I feel guided.

But the picture gets sharper every time.
More scripture is connected.

 

[Douggg]

You have when the 2W preach wrong. It is plain that they must be in Jerusalem when the Anti-Christ is in control. During the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
Revelation 11:1-13 is a complete narrative about the 2 Witnesses and Jesus calls them to Him at His Return.

Revelation 11:14 continues the Trumpet sequence from the Sixth Trumpet in Revelation 9:21.

kears, you are not understanding by what two woes are passed means. It does not mean that in reality they have been fulfilled. What it means John was already shown what the first two woes were and he was about to be show what the third woe will be when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet.

John was shown what the third woe is in Revelation 12 of the war in the second heaven and Satan cast down to earth knowing that he has only a short time left, the time/times/half time.

The third to the inhabiters to the earth and sea is in Revelation 12:12.

So that puts the third woe just past the midpoint as shown on my chart.

Keras, you want to put the 7th angel sounding near the very end of the seven years, right after the two witnesses are killed and come back to life - and the people of the world celebrate exchanging presents over their deaths.

Do you know what is wrong with your timing ? The second woe is the killing of a 1/3 of mankind by a huge army - that of the kings of the east. 1/3 !!! There is no way the people of the world will be making merry, exchanging presents in that setting.

 

[Douggg]

You're doing the equation again of tribulation to God's wrath.
That is chief of your errors.

Please go back - edit your post and quote me correctly - I wrote "great tribulation" not "tribulation".

The vials of God's wrath take place during the great tribulation - the 1335 days.

The "tribulation of those days" is a phrase used in Matthew 24:28 to distinguish it as being shorter than the great tribulation.

I show both on my chart.

 

[Douggg]

It's because prior to the Abomination of Desolation, Muslims believe that the Antichrist is the Mahdi, afterall, he leads them to take over Israel, just as the Qur'an says he would.

The person in Daniel 11:36-11:45 is the beast, the Antichrist after he claims to be God. In Islam, Muslims believe the Mahdi never claims to be God. The Mahdi to them is a supermuslim - human only.

The muslims believe that the Antichrist will be called the dajjal, and followed by 70,000 Jews.

10 Facts About Dajjal Every Muslims Needs To Know Today


There is no Mahdi, dajjal, Isa, scenario possible. Joel Richardson, Joel Rosenberg who push the scenario you are talking about are both Jews -and cannot cope with the reality of the Antichrist being a Jew, who will go bad and become the beast. So they make the Antichrist out to be a muslim - the Mahdi.

 

[Douggg]

It's because prior to the Abomination of Desolation, Muslims believe that the Antichrist is the Mahdi, afterall, he leads them to take over Israel, just as the Qur'an says he would.
But after declaring himself to be God? Muslims will break away, it's the highest of blasphemies.

Jamdoc, in that scenario when the muslim Mahdi declares to be God, the muslims turn away from him. By going into the Dome of the Rock sitting claiming to be God ?

The problem is that a muslim, such as the Mahdi, cannot become the (perceived) King of Israel messiah - the Antichrist - to start with.

The Jews, nor the west, i.e. EU , the U.S, Canada, are not going to embrace some Mahdi supermuslim as a messiah figure.

 

[Douggg]

also, here's an error that I don't even know if you realize it.
If Jesus descends to the Mount of Olives, as prophecied, how is Edom on the way to Jerusalem? The Mount of Olives is just outside of Jerusalem.
So whether you realize it or not,
you can see that Jesus lands on the mount of Olives, mounts a campaign in Edom, and then comes BACK to Jerusalem.

Descends to earth, and like a whirlwind in a circular movement of a hurricane sweeps through Israel and Edom executing judgment. Jerusalem in the eye of the storm.

 

[Timtofly]

You have that wrong, Tim.

In Revelation, the two witnesses come back to life (Revelation 11:11-12) before the 7th trumpet begins to sound (Revelation 11:15).

Parenthetical verses deal with future chapters, not chapters prior to them.

Chapter 10 already points to the 7th Trumpet.

Tim, in Matthew 24:29-30, what coming is this one highlighted in red?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

____________________________________________________________

Next question: Tim which of these verses in Matthew 24:29-30 match with the powers of heaven shaken in the sixth seal event?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sixth seal event...

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

There is only one Second Coming mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

The 5th and 6th Seals cover this Second Coming. 2 Peter 3 is the only reference that does not specify the angels coming to earth. But when the heavens dissolve would be the same time the stars are no longer seen, so they have come to earth as the angels.

Revelation 19 and Armageddon is not even after the GT. It is after Satan's 42 months, which is not the GT, but the AoD.

Matthew 24:14-15

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,"

The AoD is not after the end comes. The AoD is the last event before the end. Armageddon is the end, not the Second Coming. The Gospel still goes out after the Second Coming. The 2 witnesses have the Gospel until they are killed after the 42 months. Between their death and the end is only 3.5 days. The end of Satan's 42 months is the end of the Gospel. No one can change their minds once the 2 witnesses are dead. All of Adam's flesh will be killed by Armageddon and the end. The Millennium is the start of a newly created heaven and earth. But there is no Gospel during the Millennium. There are not any lost souls living in the Millennium.

The end in Matthew 24:14 is not the end of the Millennial reign of Christ. The end is the need and ability to accept the Atonement Covenant. The end is supposed to be when the 7th Trumpet starts, or at least the end of the week of celebration. Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

 

[Jamdoc]

Please go back - edit your post and quote me correctly - I wrote "great tribulation" not "tribulation".

The vials of God's wrath take place during the great tribulation - the 1335 days.

The "tribulation of those days" is a phrase used in Matthew 24:28 to distinguish it as being shorter than the great tribulation.

I show both on my chart.

ANY reference to tribulation, is not God's wrath is the point.
Tribulation is persecution, it's done by men.

Once the wrath of God starts, the great tribulation is over.
That's my point in that.

 

[Douggg]

All of Adam's flesh will be killed by Armageddon and the end. The Millennium is the start of a newly created heaven and earth.

There is no end to Adam's flesh, which sin now dwells, until after the millennium and the Great White Throne judgment.

Prior to the beginning of the millennium, Armageddon is the location where the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus.

At His Return, the Second Coming, in both Matthew 24 :30b and Revelation 19,
Revelation 19:19 are those armies.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

In Revelation 19:21, Jesus destroys those armies.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

_______________________________________________________

In Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the same account. After the destruction of the armies, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan imprisoned - in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus will then bring all of the house of Israel, Jacob's descendants, back to the land of Israel - in their Adam's flesh bodies.

To live long life's in the messianic age. When men will live to over 100 years old, Isaiah 65:20 And he wolf will lay down with the lamb will feed together, Isaiah 65.25.

 

[Douggg]

Once the wrath of God starts, the great tribulation is over.
That's my point in that.

Jamdoc, are you meaning....

The great tribulation begins, then ends - then the vials of of God's wrath begin ?

____________________________________________________

Once the abomination of desolation is setup, what ends the 1335 days in Daniel 12:12 ?

 

[Jamdoc]

The person in Daniel 11:36-11:45 is the beast, the Antichrist after he claims to be God. In Islam, Muslims believe the Mahdi never claims to be God. The Mahdi to them is a supermuslim - human only.

The muslims believe that the Antichrist will be called the dajjal, and followed by 70,000 Jews.

10 Facts About Dajjal Every Muslims Needs To Know Today


There is no Mahdi, dajjal, Isa, scenario possible. Joel Richardson, Joel Rosenberg who push the scenario you are talking about are both Jews -and cannot cope with the reality of the Antichrist being a Jew, who will go bad and become the beast. So they make the Antichrist out to be a muslim - the Mahdi.

Joel Richardson is not Jewish he's an American Evangelical Christian, if I had to pick on Richardson's theology at all it'd be that he falls into the Charismatic denominations.

and think.
The Nations that surround Jerusalem are Muslim, the ones given by name, Ammon, Moab, Edom, Egypt, Lebanon, Put, Cush, Persia, Elam, Magog, Gomer, Togarmah, Meshech, Tubal, all those nations that are listed as coming against Israel in various places in the bible, they're all Islamic today.

You're right, Islamic tradition doesn't have Mahdi claiming to be God, when the person they believe is Mahdi claims to be God, that's when some of these Muslim nations start breaking away in Daniel 11.

What Daniel 11 portrays, is, conflict between Turkey and Persia (also in Daniel 8), the Empire then breaks up, and you have competing factions, King of the North, and King of the South (Egypt). The King of the North conquers a lot, but then has a sudden accidental death on the way home. He's replaced by a tax collector, who dies mysteriously days later. Then the "vile person" who is Antichrist takes his place. Antichrist takes Jerusalem, divides the land, with nations like Ammon, Moab, and Edom aligned with him.
So they're following Antichrist for a time, but then when Antichrist magnifies himself above God they break away.
so it lends itself to Muslims believing that Antichrist is Mahdi.. until he magnifies himself above God. then they revolt.

There's a distinct change between Jordan helping Antichrist take Jerusalem, and Jordan backing out of Antichrist's confederation after the magnifying himself above God.
That much is fact

The only speculation is why.