Sanhedrin plans to put Pope on trial

[Open Heart]

St. Paul talks about the "wild vines" being grafted in while some of the original branches have been "cut off"

Oleanster ("wild olive") is a separate species form Olive.

 

[Open Heart]

So if one has Jacob as an ansestor, that meets the condition.

Not always. The Samaritans are cut off for example.

 

[ebia]

Not always. The Samaritans are cut off for example.

Moving goalposts?

 

[Open Heart]

Moving goalposts?

The whole discussion of what descent means is moved from the main point.

 

[ebia]

The whole discussion of what descent means is moved from the main point.

So you keep claiming. But people do not have to agree with you about what the main points are.

What it illustrates is that it isn't really about physical descent at all.

 

[Open Heart]

What it illustrates is that it isn't really about physical descent at all.

YES , it is.

 

[Rhamiel]

YES , it is.

well you have said that those who are not descendants of Abraham are open to that promise (converts to Judaism)
and you have said that those who are descendants might not be open to that promise (converts away from Judaism)

so really, this is about the supremacy of Talmudic Judaism
which evolved from the sect of the Pharisees

 

[ebia]

YES , it is.

Clearly it isn't when you have to say "but these people who aren't physically descended... count as though they are, and the vast majority of those who are physically descended count as though they are not". It's a sham; a pretence.

 

[Open Heart]

so really, this is about the supremacy of Talmudic Judaism
which evolved from the sect of the Pharisees

The Pharisees, whose rabbis were the descendants of the Judges of Israel via the unbroken chain of leaning of hands.

 

[Open Heart]

Clearly it isn't when you have to say "but these people who aren't physically descended... count as though they are, and the vast majority of those who are physically descended count as though they are not". It's a sham; a pretence.

Nonsense. It has worked since Moses, and if it works, don't fix it.

 

[Rhamiel]

Nonsense. It has worked since Moses, and if it works, don't fix it.

the whole point of the OT is that it IS broke
that it is insufficient

they had a king
God is sending them a messiah

they had manna from heaven
God is sending them Jesus who is the Bread of Life

they had Israel
God is sending His Church

 

[Open Heart]

the whole point of the OT is that it IS broke

The OT is broke? What does that say about the God who gave it?

 

[gordonhooker]

Where does Paul say that the land of Canaan is given to all of humanity? That wouldn't even make sense. In the verses I quoted, God gave the land to the descendants of Abraham FOREVER. To then give the land to someone else would make God a liar. God is no liar.

Abrahams descendants also include the descendants of Ishmael and descendants of Isaac which broke off into different tribes, and also Esau and Jacob broke off into different tribes. I believe the most Jews see themselves as being the descendants of the 12 tribes after Jacobs 12 sons. It wouldn't be an argument I would want to try and win in law because the descendants of Ishmael and Esau would also get a look in.

 

[ebia]

Nonsense. It has worked since Moses, and if it works, don't fix it.

And yet you seem unable to say what "it" is, except in terms that, on examination, turn out to be untrue.

 

[ebia]

the whole point of the OT is that it IS broke
that it is insufficient

they had a king
God is sending them a messiah

they had manna from heaven
God is sending them Jesus who is the Bread of Life

they had Israel
God is sending His Church

I wouldn't say it's broke. It's the story without the climax and resolution. Like getting stuck replaying act one of the play instead of moving on to the second act.

 

[Rhamiel]

I wouldn't say it's broke. It's the story without the climax and resolution. Like getting stuck replaying act one of the play instead of moving on to the second act.

you said this better then I did

this topic aggravates me, sorry if I am loose with the language

 

[Open Heart]

It wouldn't be an argument I would want to try and win in law because the descendants of Ishmael and Esau would also get a look in.

Except that Ishmael and Esau were specifically excluded from the covenant.

 

[Open Heart]

And yet you seem unable to say what "it" is, except in terms that, on examination, turn out to be untrue.

oh brother

 

[Rhamiel]

the Catholic Church does not support Zionism
it is a false teaching that is the tool of racial supremacists

we do not believe that the Jews still have any claim to the Holy Land

Jesus speaks to this in a parable in Mark 12
Jesus told us how the master of the vineyard would treat those who killed His son, He would kill them and give the vineyard to others
the unrepentant Jews of the time knew this was about them

Mark 12:12 "Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd so they left him and went away"

 

[gordonhooker]

Except that Ishmael and Esau were specifically excluded from the covenant.

Yikes time to put on the tin foil hat....