Sanhedrin plans to put Pope on trial

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
I realize that I am a Protestant, and therefore a guest on this forum. With that being considered, I will try to be reserved and not debate Catholic theology. God gave the Jewish people the land of Israel. It is God's land, but he essentially leased it to Abraham and his descendants. Therefore the Jews have a right to Israel until Christ returns. Neither the Pope nor anyone else can take that away.
This Catholic likes what you said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zach91
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,079
310
Midwest
✟102,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I understand your reasoning, but I do not accept it. You are adopted into the family of God, yes. That is not the same as being adopted into Israel. You are part of the commonwealth, Yes. That is also not the same as being part of Israel. You are spiritually circumcised. That is ALSO not the same as being part of Israel. You are simply not part of Israel. YOu are not a Jew, by your own admission, and the Land is not yours.

You are free to believe as you wish. :)
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I realize that I am a Protestant, and therefore a guest on this forum. With that being considered, I will try to be reserved and not debate Catholic theology. God gave the Jewish people the land of Israel. It is God's land, but he essentially leased it to Abraham and his descendants. Therefore the Jews have a right to Israel until Christ returns. Neither the Pope nor anyone else can take that away.

thank you for being so respectful and clear

what about all of the Jews over the centuries who have converted to Christianity?

the Spanish Inquisition, say what you will about it, it is a fact that many Jews became Christians
do these descendants of Abraham have any right to the land?
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,079
310
Midwest
✟102,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Well then, you MUST be a believer in Torah then right? Because during the Millenail reign we find the following will happen.

ISAIAH 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass at the end of the days, that the mountain of the house of Yahweh shall be established at the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

(Zechariah 14:16-19)
And it shall come to pass, that every one who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoever will not come up of all the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up, and does not come, who have no rain: there shall be the plague, with which Yahweh will smite the heathen who do not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that do not come up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So in your view, the Torah is not for the gentile yet during the mellinial reign ALL mankind will will observe the Torah or Adonai will close up the heavens so that their will be no rain for those who fail to come up to Jerusalem

I can see how you came to this conclusion according to your own interpretation. Here is a different explanation than yours:

https://www.gci.org/law/festivals/zech14
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
what about all of the Jews over the centuries who have converted to Christianity?
Like me? It makes me part of Israel as well as part of the Church. Israel is my ethnicity, Catholicism is my religion.
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Like me? It makes me part of Israel as well as part of the Church. Israel is my ethnicity, Catholicism is my religion.
you
and possibly millions of others who have Jewish ancestry
does the modern secular state of Israel just ignore them?
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Not at all. Jews all over the world can make aliyah to Israel.

what is the aliyah?

ok, if someone is part of a Catholic Spanish family that can trace its roots back to Jews who converted in 1650, they can go to Israel?
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
what is the aliyah?

ok, if someone is part of a Catholic Spanish family that can trace its roots back to Jews who converted in 1650, they can go to Israel?
Aliyah means immigration to Israel based on the fact that one is a Jew.

As to the modern day descendants of the Marranos, no. The rule with the State of Israel is that you have to have parents or grandparents who were Jews, or you must be a convert. Now the Orthodox will consider a Marrano a Jew if they can trace their lineage back directly through the matrilineal line. However, most Marranos can't do that, and go through conversion if they return to Judaism.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
ok, if someone is part of a Catholic Spanish family that can trace its roots back to Jews who converted in 1650, they can go to Israel?

Aliyah is when a Jewish person moves to Israel.

Israel generally goes with the Orthodox halakhic definition of a Jew (Jewish mother, convert), although their Supreme Court has stated that people who convert to Judaism within Reform or Conservative branches are allowed. In your example, the answer would be no unless they could prove an unbroken maternal line back to those Jews.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
well the promises of God are for the "children of Abraham"
there is no talk of paternal lines or maternal lines
just his descendants

Well, you'd have to get into a whole Tanach discussion here but there's a part where people return to Israel and then men are required to give up their wives and children who were not of Israel. There was no such requirement for women to give up their children if their husbands were not of Israel. The logical conclusion is that the children of the men were not part of Israel whereas the children of the women were. Seeing that, we have maternal lines now. So, it kind of does talk of maternal lines.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
well the promises of God are for the "children of Abraham"
there is no talk of paternal lines or maternal lines
just his descendants
Not necessarily. Ishmael was not included, so said God. Neither was Esau, as per God. So per God, not ALL descendents of Abraham are included in the covenant. It is up to Israel to decide who is and is not Israel. At least for now. When the Messiah returns, we all assume he will return those who are Israel but are unknown to us, including to themselves.The Land belongs to them as well, but we are unable to act on that at this time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zach91
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Not necessarily. Ishmael was not included, so said God. Neither was Esau, as per God. So per God, not ALL descendents of Abraham are included in the covenant. It is up to Israel to decide who is and is not Israel. At least for now. When the Messiah returns, we all assume he will return those who are Israel but are unknown to us, including to themselves.The Land belongs to them as well, but we are unable to act on that at this time.

ahhh yes, now we are getting somewhere

so you can be biologically a descendant of Abraham
but for other reasons not inherit the promises given to Abraham and his offspring

why do those who are in open rebellion to their King have a right to the land?
how did God deal with those who rebelled against Moses?
how did David deal with those who rebelled against him?
is not Christ greater then Moses? is not Christ greater then David?


Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Romans 2:28-29
28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
you said this was based on unbroken maternal lines?

can Ashkenazi prove that they have an unbroken maternal line that goes back to the tribes of Israel?

It is my understanding that there is some evidence that they are of Khazar stock (Southern Russian-Turkish)
thus no biological ties to the tribes Israel

as for Israel
you do say that Jesus is a Jew
and all Christians are part of the body of Christ
so would not all Christians be under the blessings of Israel?

to say no you would have to say either
1, we are NOT part of the body of Christ
2, Jesus was not a Jew
 
Upvote 0

Zach91

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2011
611
87
New Bordeaux
✟16,279.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
thank you for being so respectful and clear

what about all of the Jews over the centuries who have converted to Christianity?

the Spanish Inquisition, say what you will about it, it is a fact that many Jews became Christians
do these descendants of Abraham have any right to the land?

Yes, I think they do. When I say that Jews have a right to the land, I am talking about the genetic descendents of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob---the Hebrew people. This could include follows of Judaism, Christian Jews, Agnostic Jews, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Zach91

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2011
611
87
New Bordeaux
✟16,279.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
Not necessarily. Ishmael was not included, so said God. Neither was Esau, as per God. So per God, not ALL descendents of Abraham are included in the covenant. It is up to Israel to decide who is and is not Israel. At least for now. When the Messiah returns, we all assume he will return those who are Israel but are unknown to us, including to themselves.The Land belongs to them as well, but we are unable to act on that at this time.

I agree with you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Open Heart
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Yes, I think they do. When I say that Jews have a right to the land, I am talking about the genetic descendents of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob---the Hebrew people.
Properly speaking, Hebrew means descendent of Eber. Perhaps you meant Israelite people.

This could include follows of Judaism, Christian Jews, Agnostic Jews, etc.
...muslims
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
...muslims

To be fair, a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could be any religion, lifestyle, or whatever. Arabs wouldn't automatically be included because they view themselves as though Ismael if I recall which means not though Isaac.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zach91
Upvote 0