Romans 11:25 - , not ; 'during', not 'until'

[Job8]

There is one exception to the translation of this verse - my own translation of this verse.

So if there are 99 witnesses in a court of law which testify to one fact, and 1 witness who comes along and testifies to something else, whom should we believe?

The same principle applies. Unless you believe your scholarship far surpasses all those who have gone before, it might be wise to accept that the majority witness rules. Given the fact that all these various translations represent a cross-section of theological positions, there is no reason to reject "until". In fact it makes perfect sense.

God has blinded Israel in part (many Jews have been saved and are being saved but the majority are in unbelief), and God does not deal with Israel as Israel at this time. Why? Because the Gospel is being preached throughout the world (Mk16:15,16), and in the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

When the "fulness of the Gentiles" (the exact number of Gentiles who will be saved, and become a part if the Church) is completed, the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) will be complete, and will then be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18). That is another passage where Paul says "I would not have you ignorant brethren".

From that point on (after the Rapture) God will begin to deal with Israel as Israel, and all the prophecies pertaining to Israel in the future will be fulfilled. There will be "the time of Jacob's trouble" in the future, followed by the national mourning, repentance, and redemption of "ALL Israel". Hence the next verse.

 

[revelation2217]

So if there are 99 witnesses in a court of law which testify to one fact, and 1 witness who comes along and testifies to something else, whom should we believe?

The same principle applies. Unless you believe your scholarship far surpasses all those who have gone before, it might be wise to accept that the majority witness rules. Given the fact that all these various translations represent a cross-section of theological positions, there is no reason to reject "until". In fact it makes perfect sense.

God has blinded Israel in part (many Jews have been saved and are being saved but the majority are in unbelief), and God does not deal with Israel as Israel at this time. Why? Because the Gospel is being preached throughout the world (Mk16:15,16), and in the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

When the "fulness of the Gentiles" (the exact number of Gentiles who will be saved, and become a part if the Church) is completed, the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) will be complete, and will then be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18). That is another passage where Paul says "I would not have you ignorant brethren".

From that point on (after the Rapture) God will begin to deal with Israel as Israel, and all the prophecies pertaining to Israel in the future will be fulfilled. There will be "the time of Jacob's trouble" in the future, followed by the national mourning, repentance, and redemption of "ALL Israel". Hence the next verse.

This is the majority witness. It's right in front of you. You wanted the consensus, and this is the consensus.

καθως δε ηγγιζεν ο χρονος της επαγγελιας ης ωμοσεν ο θεος τω αβρααμ ηυξησεν ο λαος και επληθυνθη εν αιγυπτω αχρις ου ανεστη βασιλευς ετερος ος ουκ ηδει τον ιωσηφ

And as the time of the promise which God had made with an oath to Abraham was drawing near, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt, during which time another king arose, who did not know Joseph.

αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας

But rather exhort one another according to every day, during which time it is called Today, in order that none of you might be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

δει γαρ αυτον βασιλευειν αχρις ου αν θη παντας τους εχθρους υπο τους ποδας αυτου

For, indeed, he is to keep reigning during which time his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.

τεκνια μου ους παλιν ωδινω αχρις ου μορφωθη χριστος εν υμιν

My children with whom I again cramp, during which time Christ is developed in you

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel, during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

 

[revelation2217]

Here is another consensus. In Hebrews 3:13, every English translation without exception has translated αχρις ου as 'while', or 'as long as'. Why would all the translations without exception translate it as 'while', or 'as long as' here, and then as 'until' in other places? The answer is simple. It is a combination of tradition and bias. As it is clearly 'while' and 'as long as' in Hebrews 3:13, so αχρις ου (lit. 'during which) in all other instances should be translated accordingly and consistently.

☞ αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας - TR (c. 64)

☞ but exhorte one another dayly whill is it called to daye lest eny of you wexe harde herted thorow ye deceytfullnesse of sinne - Tyndalle (1330)

☞ But exhort one another dayly, while it is called to day, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulnes of sinne. - Geneva (1599)

☞ But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. - KJV (1769)

☞ but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: - ASV (1901)

☞ But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. - ESV (2001)​

αχρις is not ἕως. It does not mean 'until', but rather 'while', 'as long as', 'during', or 'through'. And there is no reason that it should not be translated as it is correctly translated in Heb. 3:13 in every other other case. That it is not is a clear case of a poor translation being passed on to the generations by nothing but tradition, and not good translation. I intend to correct this in my English version.

 

[Biblewriter]

What you are doing is the very definition of argumentum ad populum. Your entire argument boils down to 'But that's not what the consensus is!'

So, since I see you prefer consensus, I'll give you a consensus.

καθως δε ηγγιζεν ο χρονος της επαγγελιας ης ωμοσεν ο θεος τω αβρααμ ηυξησεν ο λαος και επληθυνθη εν αιγυπτω αχρις ου ανεστη βασιλευς ετερος ος ουκ ηδει τον ιωσηφ

And as the time of the promise which God had made with an oath to Abraham was drawing near, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt, during which time another king arose, who did not know Joseph.

αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας

But rather exhort one another according to every day, during which time it is called Today, in order that none of you might be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

δει γαρ αυτον βασιλευειν αχρις ου αν θη παντας τους εχθρους υπο τους ποδας αυτου

For, indeed, he is to keep reigning during which time his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.

τεκνια μου ους παλιν ωδινω αχρις ου μορφωθη χριστος εν υμιν

My children with whom I again cramp, during which time Christ is developed in you

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel, during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

You are simply igniring the fact that the meaning of a word depends on how it is being used. In this case, you whose credentials we do not even know, are claiming to know better how to trasnslate this sentence that every committee of scholars that has ever been conveined.

For the lone translation that you even claim to back you up was the work of a single individual, and that individual was such a committed amillennial that he even went so far as to falsify the comments of Victorinus, re-writing that to say the very opposite of what he said, and then publishing the wors as that of Victorinus.

So the lone translation you claim to have found to back you up, was made by a man who is known to have willfully mistranslated other works.

 

[revelation2217]

You are simply igniring the fact that the meaning of a word depends on how it is being used. In this case, you whose credentials we do not even know, are claiming to know better how to trasnslate this sentence that every committee of scholars that has ever been conveined.

For the lone translation that you even claim to back you up was the work of a single individual, and that individual was such a committed amillennial that he even went so far as to falsify the comments of Victorinus, re-writing that to say the very opposite of what he said, and then publishing the wors as that of Victorinus.

So the lone translation you claim to have found to back you up, was made by a man who is known to have willfully mistranslated other works.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding whoever this amillennialist that you are off on is, nor do I know anything as to his translation.

However, Hebrews 3:13 demonstrates that 'while', or 'as long as' are well documented translations of αχρις ου, and therefore, my thesis is proven. There is no reason for not translating it literally in every other case - 'during which'. And αχρις ου may be consistently translated as 'during which' in every case without exception. It is simply an incorrect translation to translate 'during which' as 'until'. And no matter how strong tradition is in favor of doing that in other places, it is as strong or stronger for not doing it here. And to ignore that fact, is to simply ignore facts.

☞ αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας - TR (c. 64)

☞ but exhorte one another dayly whill is it called to daye lest eny of you wexe harde herted thorow ye deceytfullnesse of sinne - Tyndalle (1330)

☞ But exhort one another dayly, while it is called to day, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulnes of sinne. - Geneva (1599)

☞ But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. - KJV (1769)

☞ but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: - ASV (1901)

☞ But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. - ESV (2001)

​

 

[revelation2217]

Calvin actually has the right idea about this passage, writing:

That blindness in part, etc. “In part,” I think, refers not simply to time, nor to the number, but means, in a manner, or in a measure; by which expression he intended, as it seems to me, only to qualify a declaration which in itself was severe. Until does not specify the progress or order of time, but signifies the same thing, as though he had said, “That the fullness of the Gentiles,” etc. The meaning then is, — That God had in a manner so blinded Israel, that while they refused the light of the gospel, it might be transferred to the Gentiles, and that these might occupy, as it were, the vacated possession. And so this blindness served the providence of God in furthering the salvation of the Gentiles, which he had designed. And the fullness of the Gentiles is to be taken for a great number: for it was not to be, as before, when a few proselytes connected themselves with the Jews; but such was to be the change, that the Gentiles would form almost the entire body of the Church. - John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 11:25​

 

[revelation2217]

Jerome also understood the purpose of Paul's words here in unmistakable terms. He takes the fullness of the Gentiles as having already been brought in to Israel. He sees the hardness of the Jews as being the temporal opportunity during which the fullness of the Gentiles had been brought in.

<Nolo enim vos ignorare,>etc. AUG. Legis defensores, legis tractatores, legis doctores, legis intellectores, auctorem legis crucifixerunt. O caecitas! Ipsa est quae ex parte cecidit in Israel, ut crucifigeretur Christus, et plenitudo gentium intraret.

<I would not have you to be ignorant,>, etc. AUG. Of the Law, defenders of the Law, teachers of the law, the law of the understanders, the author of the law, they crucified. Oh, blindness! For it is this which is the part of the sentence having fallen upon Israel, in order that Christ might be crucified, and the fullness of the Gentiles be entered. - Jerome, Gloss on Romans 11:25​

 

[revelation2217]

Martin Luther translates Romans 11:25 quite accurately in his 1545 edition of the German New Testament.

Ich will euch nicht verhalten, liebe Brüder, dieses Geheimnis, auf daß ihr nicht stolz seid. Blindheit ist Israel einesteils widerfahren, so lange, bis die Fülle der Heiden eingegangen sei

I will not have you ignorant, dear Brethren, of this Mystery, that you not be proud. Blindness to Israel is partially befallen, so long, up to the Fullness of the Gentiles having been entered.
​

 

[revelation2217]

Luther translates it the same in Hebrews 3:13

sondern ermahnet euch selbst alle Tage, solange es heute heißt, daß nicht jemand unter euch verstocket werde durch Betrug der Sünde.

But exhort one another every Day, so long is it called Today, lest any of you be hardened through the Deceitfulness of Sin.​

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP

The times of the Gentile rule over the earth is still on going

70 AD was not the time of the end still pending

Luke 21:20-36 and Matthew 24 are all a focus upon national Israel during the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30]

And the times of the Gentiles will end toward the end of the coming tribulation period [Revelation 11]

These events are all future and to come as described in detail .... never happening in the past all taken together