Romans 11:25 - , not ; 'during', not 'until'

[revelation2217]

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

This verse says nothing about a hardening that will occur 'until' this fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in, as if to imply that there will ever be anything other than a half-hardening of earthly Israel. The word here is αχρις, not ἕως. It is not an 'until' with a terminus. It is a duration throughout an indefinite amount of time. Nor is there any implication in Romans 11 that there will ever be a time when there is not a partial hardening of earthly Jerusalem. For then if the question remains as to how they might be saved, Paul answers, 'Israel must be saved in the way it is written, The deliverer will come from Zion and remove ungodliness from Jacob', meaning that those who are not the hardened part shall be saved by accepting Jesus Christ, the deliverer who came out of Zion.

Furthermore, the pronoun ου is missing in the KJV and is rendered as 'until the fullness', when it should be rendered as 'during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered'. And this makes all the difference. The KJV tortures this verse in a rendering from the Greek.

Furthermore, the phrase το πληρωμα των εθνων (pleroma, fullness of the Gentiles) is not some future notion apart from Paul's time, for εισελθη is in the aorist and already having become a present reality when Paul is writing Romans.

 

[Interplanner]

But if the other version is repeated 1000x it must be true.

 

[Notrash]

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered.​

This verse says nothing about a hardening that will occur 'until' this fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in, as if to imply that there will ever be anything other than a half-hardening of earthly Israel. The word here is αχρις, not ἕως. It is not an 'until' with a terminus. It is a duration throughout an indefinite amount of time. Nor is there any implication in Romans 11 that there will ever be a time when there is not a partial hardening of earthly Jerusalem. For then if the question remains as to how they might be saved, Paul answers, 'Israel must be saved in the way it is written, The deliverer will come from Zion and remove ungodliness from Jacob', meaning that those who are not the hardened part shall be saved by accepting Jesus Christ, the deliverer who came out of Zion.

Furthermore, the pronoun ου is missing in the KJV and is rendered as 'until the fullness', when it should be rendered as 'during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered'. And this makes all the difference. The KJV tortures this verse in a rendering from the Greek.

Furthermore, the phrase το πληρωμα των εθνων (pleroma, fullness of the Gentiles) is not some future notion apart from Paul's time, for εισελθη is in the aorist and already having become a present reality when Paul is writing Romans.

Thank you.
Also note that pleroma (or pleroo) oft refers to a spiritual filling in the new testament.

So what is the "mystery"? I believe its that a jealousy (Paul believes unto emulation) was prophecked to occur during the last generation of the misaic covt in Deut 32:21 & Rom 10:19 in which the unbelieving jews would be made jealous by those whom they considered not a people of God (tribes of Israel, Samaratains and other gentiles.) because they recieved the filling, peace, freedom and joy of God APART FROM participation in and strivings/enslavements of the law.

Continue your word study with a breakdown of "houtos" in vs 26 and note the topic of context in Is 59 from where vs 26 is quoted. Note its associatiin (and that of Is 63) with feut 32.

 

[Danoh]

Thank you.
Also note that pleroma (or pleroo) oft refers to a spiritual filling in the new testament.

So what is the "mystery"? I believe its that a jealousy (Paul believes unto emulation) was prophecked to occur during the last generation of the misaic covt in Deut 32:21 & Rom 10:19 in which the unbelieving jews would be made jealous by those whom they considered not a people of God (tribes of Israel, Samaratains and other gentiles.) because they recieved the filling, peace, freedom and joy of God APART FROM participation in and strivings/enslavements of the law.

Continue your word study with a breakdown of "houtos" in vs 26 and note the topic of context in Is 59 from where vs 26 is quoted. Note its associatiin (and that of Is 63) with feut 32.

I don't understand that as the Mystery there, rather as what was prophesied, thus I do agree with you on that.

But keep in mind that I am Mid-Acts in my Dispensationalism, my understanding is that the Body began in Acts 9 with Paul, after Israel's Acts 7:51 fall per Matthew 12:30-32, just before Paul " a blasphemer" was saved not through Peter's Acts 2 and 3 requirement, for Paul had blasphemed the Spirit.

Rather, he was saved when God did the unexpected but to Him alone, delayed Israel's heading toward His wrath, and the Lord's return, and instead began to reveal a Mystery longsuffering, which, per Romans 9; 1 Timothy 1, and 2 Peter 3, He first began to reveal said longsuffering with its delay of His Son's return, through an odd, unexpected, one Apostle too many to Israel's Twelve - an Apostle of the Gentiles, Romans 11.

My understanding is that this kept "hid in God," Mystery longsuffering of God's during Israel's prophesied fall is "this mystery" that 11:25 is referring to.

 

[Biblewriter]

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered.​

This verse says nothing about a hardening that will occur 'until' this fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in, as if to imply that there will ever be anything other than a half-hardening of earthly Israel. The word here is αχρις, not ἕως. It is not an 'until' with a terminus. It is a duration throughout an indefinite amount of time. Nor is there any implication in Romans 11 that there will ever be a time when there is not a partial hardening of earthly Jerusalem. For then if the question remains as to how they might be saved, Paul answers, 'Israel must be saved in the way it is written, The deliverer will come from Zion and remove ungodliness from Jacob', meaning that those who are not the hardened part shall be saved by accepting Jesus Christ, the deliverer who came out of Zion.

Furthermore, the pronoun ου is missing in the KJV and is rendered as 'until the fullness', when it should be rendered as 'during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered'. And this makes all the difference. The KJV tortures this verse in a rendering from the Greek.

Furthermore, the phrase το πληρωμα των εθνων (pleroma, fullness of the Gentiles) is not some future notion apart from Paul's time, for εισελθη is in the aorist and already having become a present reality when Paul is writing Romans.

It is a common ruse of deceivers to explode a sentence, select alternate meanings of various words, and then put the sentences back together to mean something entirely different from the original text.

The meaning of a word is highly dependent on its context. Thus, our English word fast can mean either moving at a high rate of speed, capability of moving at a high rate of speed, or fastened so securely that it cannot move at all. But in each case, the same word is used.

In the case of Romans 11:25, the Greek word αχρις, (achris in our alphabet) which can indeed mean while in some contexts, clearly means until in this sentence.

I intended to demonstrate this by posting various translations here, but when I had finished checking, I found that to be totally impractical. For in only one afternoon, I was able to fine 51 different translations of Romans 11:25. And without a single exception, every single one of them rendered αχρις as either until or till in this sentence, except for a single one that rendered it as when.

So the alternate translation for this sentence being proposed here is contrary to the unanimous judgment of over 50 translations, most of which were produced by committees, not by individuals.

 

[revelation2217]

It is a common ruse of deceivers to explode a sentence, select alternate meanings of various words, and then put the sentences back together to mean something entirely different from the original text.

The meaning of a word is highly dependent on its context. Thus, our English word fast can mean either moving at a high rate of speed, capability of moving at a high rate of speed, or fastened so securely that it cannot move at all. But in each case, the same word is used.

In the case of Romans 11:25, the Greek word αχρις, (achris in our alphabet) which can indeed mean while in some contexts, clearly means until in this sentence.

I intended to demonstrate this by posting various translations here, but when I had finished checking, I found that to be totally impractical. For in only one afternoon, I was able to fine 51 different translations of Romans 11:25. And without a single exception, every single one of them rendered αχρις as either until or till in this sentence, except for a single one that rendered it as when.

So the alternate translation for this sentence being proposed here is contrary to the unanimous judgment of over 50 translations, most of which were produced by committees, not by individuals.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition is true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

 

[revelation2217]

Paul used αχρις in Romans 11:25 and not ἕως, because he meant αχρις and not ἕως.

αχρις is consistently understand and may be translated in every case as 'through'. ἕως is consistently understood and may be translated in ever case as 'until'. They are not the same words, they are not synonyms, and they have as much difference as the English words 'through' and 'until'.

And the weight and authority of traditions of poor English translation and politically correct committees bent on maintaining the tradition of poor English translation are of no moment whatsoever.

αχρις means 'through', 'throughout', and 'during'. And it doesn't denote anything else. ἕως means 'till', 'until' with a view toward the terminus.

Those who have based their eschatology on poor renderings of Romans 11:25 have based it on a foundation of sand.

And you will notice, o dear reader, in my OP, what I have done is correct the translation that fails to put in what the Greek actually states.

This is an accurate and word for word translation of Romans 11:25, without concern for tradition or politics.

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which the fullness of the Gentiles might be entered.​

 

[Notrash]

Breaking down eiserchome I think yields "been coming in" as a (then) presently occuring past event.

 

[ebedmelech]

The real lynchpin of Romans 11:25 is easily understood if one keeps Romans 11:17-24 in mind.

The natural olive tree has been grafted with the wild olive tree to make one tree. Hence, the tree is made up of Jew and Gentile Christians. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

The apostle warns that Gentile Christians not make the mistake the Jews made in attitude toward the rest of the world, thinking they were special as God's chosen people under the Old Covenant. Gentile Christians are not to then turn around with that same attitude toward Jews.

The fact is God is going to do an outpouring and open the eyes of many Jews to the Gospel AFTER the fullness of Gentiles have been saved.

This is not hard...but some make it that way. The totality of the passge cannot be turned on it's head by one verse or word.

 

[revelation2217]

The real lynchpin of Romans 11:25 is easily understood if one keeps Romans 11:17-24 in mind.

The natural olive tree has been grafted with the wild olive tree to make one tree. Hence, the tree is made up of Jew and Gentile Christians. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

The apostle warns that Gentile Christians not make the mistake the Jews made in attitude toward the rest of the world, thinking they were special as God's chosen people under the Old Covenant. Gentile Christians are not to then turn around with that same attitude toward Jews.

The fact is God is going to do an outpouring and open the eyes of many Jews to the Gospel AFTER the fullness of Gentiles have been saved.

This is not hard...but some make it that way. The totality of the passge cannot be turned on it's head by one verse or word.

I agree with that, ebed. I think as far as the homily and the portent of what Paul is communicating, you have stated it perfectly.

I'm only making one small technical point that Paul is not saying that the hardness of the Jews is only 'until' the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. That translation is just plainly wrong. The hardening of Israel is the very thing that made them crucify Jesus. This hardening was even used by the God in his providence to bring salvation to not only the remnant Jews who accepted the Deliverer who came from Zion, but also all the Gentiles. Paul's point is that the present hardening is the very time during which the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. And the 'fullness of the Gentiles' is simply Paul's way of saying that the whole plan of Salvation was always intended to be complete and full within all the nations of the world, not just the Jews.

 

[Notrash]

The real lynchpin of Romans 11:25 is easily understood if one keeps Romans 11:17-24 in mind.

The natural olive tree has been grafted with the wild olive tree to make one tree. Hence, the tree is made up of Jew and Gentile Christians. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

The apostle warns that Gentile Christians not make the mistake the Jews made in attitude toward the rest of the world, thinking they were special as God's chosen people under the Old Covenant. Gentile Christians are not to then turn around with that same attitude toward Jews.

The fact is God is going to do an outpouring and open the eyes of many Jews to the Gospel AFTER the fullness of Gentiles have been saved.

This is not hard...but some make it that way. The totality of the passge cannot be turned on it's head by one verse or word.

I diagree that this prophecies a future outpouring on the jews, though that may occur. If there is no distinction anymore then why would God continue a distinction saying that after a full amount of gentiles come in, then an outpouring is to go toward the jews.

The filling of the nations is the spiritual filling of God, his goodness, love, etc. that Paul hopes, according to prophecy (rom 10:19-21) will make some of the still unbelieving jews of @60 AD jealous of this filling (jealous unto emulatiin) befor the desolation and before their lives are demanded of them in accordance with deut 18:15-19 & acts 3:22-24.

Basically Paul is saying that he didn't want them to be ignorant ( and conceited) thinking that they had replaced the jews. No, they stood ingrafted into the olive tree of the father/Son/branches-spirit by faith and could be lopped off for discontinued belief.

Part or some of unbelievi.g israelites had been hardened to be especially provoked to faith by the fullness of Joy, peace & freedom which they would witness in the believers of the nations. The reason they were not to be ignorant is explained in the following context.

Some persecuting jews woukd come to believe through them and they were not to render evil for the coming evil and persecution of the judaizers. They were to render good to their enemies. Ch 12 has these thoughts connected to ch 11.

Through jealousy of their love and peace, some would come to faith through a desire for emulation. This, I believe is the myster hidden in the prophecy of deut 32:19-11.

 

[Job8]

This verse says nothing about a hardening that will occur 'until' this fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in..

As a matter of fact, this verse does indeed say exactly that "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". Here is the Textus Receptus and Berry's Interlinear translation:

Οὐ-γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί
For not do I wish you to be ignorant brethren,

τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παῤ
of this mystery, that ye may not be in

ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ
yourselves wise, that hardness in part to Israel

γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ
has happened UNTIL THE FULNESS of the nations be come in

You will find "until" in all the following translations: NIV, NLT, ESV,NASB, KJV, Holman, ISV, NET, ASV, Douay-Rheims, RV, etc. No exceptions.

So your attempt to misread (mislead?) or mistranslate, or whatever, is really an attempt to subvert the prophetic impact of this verse, as well as the next. Why don't you accept the truth and simply believe it?

 

[revelation2217]

As a matter of fact, this verse does indeed say exactly that "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". Here is the Textus Receptus and Berry's Interlinear translation:

Οὐ-γὰρ θέλω ὑμᾶς ἀγνοεῖν ἀδελφοί
For not do I wish you to be ignorant brethren,

τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο ἵνα μὴ ἦτε παῤ
of this mystery, that ye may not be in

ἑαυτοῖς φρόνιμοι ὅτι πώρωσις ἀπὸ μέρους τῷ Ἰσραὴλ
yourselves wise, that hardness in part to Israel

γέγονεν ἄχρις οὗ τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν εἰσέλθῃ
has happened UNTIL THE FULNESS of the nations be come in

You will find "until" in all the following translations: NIV, NLT, ESV,NASB, KJV, Holman, ISV, NET, ASV, Douay-Rheims, RV, etc. No exceptions.

So your attempt to misread (mislead?) or mistranslate, or whatever, is really an attempt to subvert the prophetic impact of this verse, as well as the next. Why don't you accept the truth and simply believe it?

There is one exception to the translation of this verse - my own translation of this verse. And I translate it this way because it is a true and accurate rendering. I have correctly translated αχρις ου here and no one else has. And that is the truth. I follow what Paul wrote, not what those who translate him poorly wrote. And I give it here so that those who are of the Truth may know the Truth.

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel during which the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

 

[revelation2217]

Actually, there is another witness to Romans 11:25, though not in English. It is none other than Jerome's Latin Vulgate.

Nolo enim vos ignorare fratres mysterium hoc: (ut non sitis vobisipsis sapientes) quia caecitas ex parte contigit in Israel, donec plenitudo Gentium intraret

I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, of this Mysterium (that you may not be wise in your own selves) that a hardening in part is happened to Israel, while the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​

 

[revelation2217]

Acts 7:17-18 is another case where we see the form αχρις ου. It may be rendered as follows:

καθως δε ηγγιζεν ο χρονος της επαγγελιας ης ωμοσεν ο θεος τω αβρααμ ηυξησεν ο λαος και επληθυνθη εν αιγυπτω αχρις ου ανεστη βασιλευς ετερος ος ουκ ηδει τον ιωσηφ

And as the time of the promise which God had made with an oath to Abraham was drawing near, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt, during which time another king arose, who did not know Joseph.​

I actually translate the pronoun ου as well. Others do not.

 

[revelation2217]

Hebrews 3:13 is another example of the same form as in Romans 11:25

αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας

But rather exhort one another according to every day, during which it is called Today, in order that none of you might be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.​

 

[revelation2217]

1 Corinthians 15:25 is also the same form and may be rendered as follows.

δει γαρ αυτον βασιλευειν αχρις ου αν θη παντας τους εχθρους υπο τους ποδας αυτου
For, indeed, he is to keep reigning during which time his enemies should be made the footstool of his feet.​

 

[revelation2217]

Galatians 4:19 is also the same form and may be rendered as follows:

τεκνια μου ους παλιν ωδινω αχρις ου μορφωθη χριστος εν υμιν
My children with whom I again cramp, during which time Christ is developed in you​

 

[Biblewriter]

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition is true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

This is totally false. It is not even close to an argument from popularity. It is simply pointing out something that even surprised me, that in all the 51 translations I was able to check, there was not even one scholar that agreed with the way you are trying to represent this word.

I usually do not appeal to "scholars," for that is often just an excuse to justify false doctrine by finding one that agrees with you. But in the case of questions as to the meaning of a word, there are very few of us that that are personally qualified to speak on the fine nuances involved in translating Biblical languages. But in this case, there was unanimous agreement among the scholars that, in the way this word is used in this sentence, its true meaning is obviously until, and not while.

So I am forced to conclude that you are willfully wresting scripture, not making qualified comments on what it actually means. It is obvious that the entire basis of your opinion is a desire to "get around" what this passage obviously says. And that being the case, I am not even going to bother to check out all the other passages where you are making the same false and baseless arguments.

 

[revelation2217]

This is totally false. It is not even close to an argument from popularity. It is simply pointing out something that even surprised me, that in all the 51 translations I was able to check, there was not even one scholar that agreed with the way you are trying to represent this word.

I usually do not appeal to "scholars," for that is often just an excuse to justify false doctrine by finding one that agrees with you. But in the case of questions as to the meaning of a word, there are very few of us that that are personally qualified to speak on the fine nuances involved in translating Biblical languages. But in this case, there was unanimous agreement among the scholars that, in the way this word is used in this sentence, its true meaning is obviously until, and not while.

So I am forced to conclude that you are willfully wresting scripture, not making qualified comments on what it actually means. It is obvious that the entire basis of your opinion is a desire to "get around" what this passage obviously says. And that being the case, I am not even going to bother to check out all the other passages where you are making the same false and baseless arguments.

What you are doing is the very definition of argumentum ad populum. Your entire argument boils down to 'But that's not what the consensus is!'

So, since I see you prefer consensus, I'll give you a consensus.

καθως δε ηγγιζεν ο χρονος της επαγγελιας ης ωμοσεν ο θεος τω αβρααμ ηυξησεν ο λαος και επληθυνθη εν αιγυπτω αχρις ου ανεστη βασιλευς ετερος ος ουκ ηδει τον ιωσηφ

And as the time of the promise which God had made with an oath to Abraham was drawing near, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt, during which time another king arose, who did not know Joseph.

αλλα παρακαλειτε εαυτους καθ εκαστην ημεραν αχρις ου το σημερον καλειται ινα μη σκληρυνθη τις εξ υμων απατη της αμαρτιας

But rather exhort one another according to every day, during which time it is called Today, in order that none of you might be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

δει γαρ αυτον βασιλευειν αχρις ου αν θη παντας τους εχθρους υπο τους ποδας αυτου

For, indeed, he is to keep reigning during which time his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.

τεκνια μου ους παλιν ωδινω αχρις ου μορφωθη χριστος εν υμιν

My children with whom I again cramp, during which time Christ is developed in you

ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστηριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απο μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις ου το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

For I do not want you to be unaware of this Mysterium, brethren, lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that hardness in part has come to Israel, during which time the fullness of the Gentiles be entered.​