Israel is Real! Avoid the Christian arrogance that Paul Specifically warned against (Romans 11:25)

[Grip Docility]

"As far as the election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs." (Ro 11:28)

It is the "election" (Ro 11:28), the part (remnant) who believes, who are not hardened (Ro 11:25), who are loved.

You've been patient with me. I'll just spill the opinionated beans. The Devil is going to get Flanked, HARD! Like, Israel will be under attack, almost fully conquered... and "some" folks that the devil thought belonged to him, are going to be Flanking his ranks from all sides and from within his ranks.

 

[Grip Docility]

You've been patient with me. I'll just spill the opinionated beans. The Devil is going to get Flanked, HARD! Like, Israel will be under attack, almost fully conquered... and "some" folks that the devil thought belonged to him, are going to be Flanking his ranks from all sides and from within his ranks.

@Hazelelponi You cracked me up, because I saw your emoji response change, several times! I do that too, sometimes.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

@Hazelelponi You cracked me up, because I saw your emoji response change, several times! I do that too, sometimes.

I didn't know how to emoji that.

I am likely to have a different eschatology than you so I hated going all in on an agree but I don't disagree .. God's doing something.

With Israel and Gentile believers both, together.

I don't know what... But I agree with your post.

 

[Clare73]

I disagree with your deduction. The election you are talking about above is linked to the gospel which all must believe in order to be part of the elect remnant - but Paul states specifically that they are enemies as far as the gospel is concerned

- yet regarding God's election of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Paul states that God still loves those who are enemies as far as the gospel is concerned

- and this is for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because God has His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in mind always. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
​

No election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, no election for us either.

Saying that God still loves them is not the same as saying that they are part of the elect remnant. It's saying that because of God's electi"andon of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He loves even those descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are broken off through their unbelief

- and the words "BELOVED of God" should not be overlooked, IMO.

If what you said were true then it nullifies the need for faith in Christ and belief of the gospel - because then Paul is talking about the elect remnant being beloved for the fathers' sakes,

rather than because of believing the gospel.​

The issue is clearly stated in Ro 11:23 -- they will be grafted in if they do not persist in unbelief.

 

[Clare73]

I didn't know how to emoji that.
I am likely to have a different eschatology than you so I hated going all in on an agree but I don't disagree ..
God's doing something. With Israel and Gentile believers both, together.
I don't know what... But I agree with your post.

Hopefully, the Jews are coming to the gospel. . .as Jesus told them--apart from it, they are not saved (Jn 3:18).

 

[Zao is life]

The issue is clearly stated in Ro 11:23 -- they will be grafted in if they do not persist in unbelief.

Clearly you do not know the difference between God's faithfulness and yours.

If the election of God was revocable no one would be saved because we are all sinners and were it alone for our works, we all deserve to be broken off.

Salvation is through faith, not of works. God's election and God's faithfulness to His own Word means that He will never stop loving the Jews - which is what Paul is saying.

The fact that it seems that you have not even read what I said but repeated what I already quoted about what Paul said is okay, because I'm not important so it does not matter, but It seems you have not read Romans 11:23-33 properly either, but have guessed what Paul is saying.

 

[Grip Docility]

...


I didn't know how to emoji that.

I am likely to have a different eschatology than you so I hated going all in on an agree but I don't disagree .. God's doing something.

With Israel and Gentile believers both, together.

I don't know what... But I agree with your post.

I appreciate your honesty! All Love in Jesus to you!

 

[Grip Docility]

Hopefully, the Jews are coming to the gospel. . .as Jesus told them--apart from it, they are not saved (Jn 3:18).

I wonder “when” they will say blessed be the One who comes in the name of YH-H?

Hey, doesn’t Jesus have those key thingies?

 

[Clare73]

Clearly you do not know the difference between God's faithfulness and yours.

If the election of God was revocable

It is the election of a people, which is not revoked as long as a remnant fulfills it.

no one would be saved because we are all sinners and were it alone for our works, we all deserve to be broken off.

Salvation is through faith, not of works. God's election and God's faithfulness to His own Word means that He will never stop loving the Jews - which is what Paul is saying.

He will never stop loving the elect.
The Jews who reject Jesus Christ have the same destiny as the rest of mankind which rejects Christ.
God has one purpose--to prepare a bride for his Son, which bride is the body of Christ (Eph 5:30-32); i.e., all who believe in Jesus of Nazareth.
All those not in the body of Christ because of rejection of him are condemned.

God does not have two people, one in the body of Christ and one outside the body of Christ.
The apostolic teaching from Christ (Gal 1:11-12) is one olive tree of God's one people (Ro 11:16-23), from which unbelieving Jews have been cut off and believing Gentiles have been grafted in, and to which the Jews will be grafted back if they do not persist in unbelief.

According to Christ's teaching given to Paul (Gal 1:11-12), the Jews have one conditional destiny--to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17), if they do not persist in unbelief.(Ro 11:23).

Ir's not complicated.

 

[Clare73]

I wonder “when” they will say blessed be the One who comes in the name of YH-H?

Hey, doesn’t Jesus have those key thingies?

He gave them to the apostles, who with the preaching of the gospel declare on the authority of Jesus who is and is not in the kingdom of God, which is here now (Da 2:44**, Eph 2:6 , 1 Pe 2:5, 9, Rev 1;6, 5:9-10), invisible, within (Lk 7:20-21) and never ending (Lk 1:33).

** "in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21).
The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).

 

[Grip Docility]

Clearly you do not know the difference between God's faithfulness and yours.

If the election of God was revocable no one would be saved because we are all sinners and were it alone for our works, we all deserve to be broken off.

Salvation is through faith, not of works. God's election and God's faithfulness to His own Word means that He will never stop loving the Jews - which is what Paul is saying.

The fact that it seems that you have not even read what I said but repeated what I already quoted about what Paul said is okay, because I'm not important so it does not matter, but It seems you have not read Romans 11:23-33 properly either, but have guessed what Paul is saying.

It is the election of a people, which is not revoked as long as a remnant fulfills it.

He will never stop loving the elect.
The Jews who reject Jesus Christ have the same destiny as the rest of mankind which rejects Christ.
God has one purpose--to prepare a bride for his Son, which bride is the body of Christ (Eph 5:30-32); i.e., all who believe in Jesus of Nazareth.
All those not in the body of Christ because of rejection of him are condemned.

God does not have two people, one in the body of Christ and one outside the body of Christ.
The apostolic teaching from Christ (Gal 1:11-12) is one olive tree of God's one people (Ro 11:16-23), from which unbelieving Jews have been cut off and believing Gentiles have been grafted in, and to which the Jews will be grafted back if they do not persist in unbelief.

According to Christ's teaching given to Paul (Gal 1:11-12), the Jews have one conditional destiny--to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:17), if they do not persist in unbelief.(Ro 11:23).

Ir's not complicated.

I’m finding both of your posts scripturally edifying. I can’t help but love the scriptural discussion that isn’t off the rails!

Thank you to both of you for the scriptural blessing!

 

[Grip Docility]

He gave them to the apostles, who with the preaching of the gospel declare on the authority of Jesus who is and is not in the kingdom of God, which is here now, invisible and within (Lk 7:20-21).

Hmmmm… I’m talking about the Ones that the Grey Haired Super Awesome Fiery Eyed God has in Revelation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

God has one purpose--to prepare a bride for his Son, which bride is the body of Christ (Eph 5:30-32); i.e., all who believe in Jesus of Nazareth.

Yes... But there's no proof he's just finished with Israel.

Jews do become Christian sometimes yet today, and so perhaps God isn't done with them yet ..

Can we watch more Jews come into the fold if the Jewish people are wiped out?

Everything God does is for His Glory. Perhaps including saving a particular people from extinction, even if not many are saved.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes... But there's no proof he's just finished with Israel.

Jews do become Christian sometimes yet today, and so perhaps God isn't done with them yet ..

Can we watch more Jews come into the fold if the Jewish people are wiped out?

Everything God does is for His Glory. Perhaps including saving a particular people from extinction, even if not many are saved.

“This Gene-ration shall not pass” Mt 24:34

 

[Hazelelponi]

“This Gene-ration shall not pass” Mt 24:34

Well, I'm sure that's not what that verse means but good try.

All my love in Christ... I'm pretty firm in what I do believe, I'm really not easily convinced of anything.

It took Christ hitting me over the head with a skillet (imagery of a point, not reality) to bring me to Christ. Now that I have a set of beliefs I'm not someone to change them without another skillet... though another isn't beyond God.. haha

Though I have to mention the Jewish thing surprised me, so I'm just rolling with it according to my Faith.

 

[Grip Docility]

Well, I'm sure that's not what that verse means but good try.

All my love in Christ... I'm pretty firm in what I do believe, I'm really not easily convinced of anything.

It took Christ hitting me over the head with a skillet (imagery of a point, not reality) to bring me to Christ. Now that I have a set of beliefs I'm not someone to change them without another skillet... though another isn't beyond God.. haha

I never forget… our relationship with God and all that we learn in the Spirit, is very special and unique to each of us!

All Love in Jesus, to You!

 

[Clare73]

Yes... But there's no proof he's just finished with Israel.

Israel has until the end to believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

He will never stop loving the elect.

Exactly. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the fathers of the elect.

God does not have two people, one in the body of Christ and one outside the body of Christ.

I never said he did. You and I read the passage and what Paul is saying in almost the same way, except that you change what Paul says in verse 28 to:

"As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, YOU are beloved for the father's sakes."

But that's not what Paul wrote. This is what he wrote:

As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, THEY are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God still loves them because HE remembers His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His covenant with Abraham. Though they are unfaithful, yet God is faithful. THEREFORE,

They also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For as all of you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Questions: Did Joseph continue to love his brothers in all the time he was estranged from them, or not?

Did Joseph weep so loud when the reconciliation came that the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs, or not?

Did Paul say that he could wish that he would become accursed from Christ for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh, or not?

And did he say that he had great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart for those who had been broken off, or not?

Did he call them those "who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises", or not?

Did he refer to them as those "WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.", or not?

So what do you think Paul means when he says,

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul is telling you that those who have been broken off are still BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers - because though they have been unfaithful, yet God is faithful.

What's wrong with Christ caring about and LOVING His lost sheep of Israel and wanting nothing more than for them ALL to be grafted back in again?

We can glean from scripture in the account of Joseph and in many other accounts, as well as in what Paul said about the continual pain and sorrow in his heart because of Jews being cut off how God feels about it, how Jesus feels about it.

He who was born a Jew, of a Jewish woman in a Jewish family in a Jewish town in a Jewish community in a Jewish homeland. How do you think HE feels about the fact that most of His kinsmen according to the flesh are cut off?

As concerning the gospel, THEY are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning THE ELECTION, they are beloved for THE FATHER'S sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

"who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

IMO Romans 11 is misread alike by all who believe there are two Israel's, as well as by nearly all who know there is only one Israel - the latter misread it because they either fail to see. or see but fail to fully grasp the meaning of the words "BELOVED FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE.

I agree, it's not complicated if you understand the faithfulness of God and understand that God's faithfulness is not nullified by their unfaithfulness:

".. to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.".

Christ is not done yet. He's coming back, you know?

 

[Clare73]

Exactly. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the fathers of the elect.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The election of Israel was not to salvation, but to receive God's revelation, God's law, to prepare for and to produce the Messiah.
Election to salvation means faith in Jesus Christ.

I never said he did. You and I read the passage and what Paul is saying in almost the same way, except that you change what Paul says in verse 28 to:
"As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, YOU are beloved for the father's sakes."
But that's not what Paul wrote. This is what he wrote:

As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, THEY are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

And that (i.e., beloved for the Father's sake) is being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 11:5), so that the gifts and calling of God remain without repentance.

God still loves them because HE remembers His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His covenant with Abraham. Though they are unfaithful, yet God is faithful. THEREFORE,

They also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For as all of you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Questions: Did Joseph continue to love his brothers in all the time he was estranged from them, or not?

Did Joseph weep so loud when the reconciliation came that the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs, or not?

Did Paul say that he could wish that he would become accursed from Christ for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh, or not?

And did he say that he had great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart for those who had been broken off, or not?

Did he call them those "who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises", or not?

Did he refer to them as those "WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.", or not?

So what do you think Paul means when he says,

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul is telling you that those who have been broken off are still BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers

Beloved, but not saved because of their unbelief.

- because though they have been unfaithful, yet God is faithful.

That faithfulness is fulfilled in a remnant.

What's wrong with Christ caring about and LOVING His lost sheep of Israel and wanting nothing more than them to be grafted back in again?

We can glean from scripture in the account of Joseph and in many other accounts, as well as in what Paul said about the continual pain and sorrow in his heart because of Jews being cut off how God feels about it, how Jesus feels about it.

He who was born a Jew, of a Jewish woman in a Jewish family in a Jewish town in a Jewish community in a Jewish homeland. How do you think HE feels about the fact that most of His kinsmen according to the flesh are cut off?

As concerning the gospel, THEY are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning THE ELECTION, they are beloved for THE FATHER'S sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Correct. . .and their election is still being fulfilled. . .in those who believe; i.e., the remnant (Ro 11:5).
The gifts and calling of God to Israel is still without repentance, it being fulfilled in a remnant who believe.

But that's not what Paul wrote. This is what he wrote:

As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, THEY are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God still loves them because HE remembers His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His covenant with Abraham. Though they are unfaithful, yet God is faithful.
THEREFORE:
They also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For as all of you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Exactly. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the fathers of the elect.

I never said he did. You and I read the passage and what Paul is saying in almost the same way, except that you change what Paul says in verse 28 to:

"As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, YOU are beloved for the father's sakes."

But that's not what Paul wrote. This is what he wrote:

As concerning the gospel, they (those who have been broken off through their unbelief) are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, THEY are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God still loves them because HE remembers His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His covenant with Abraham. Though they are unfaithful, yet God is faithful. THEREFORE,

They also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For as all of you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief, even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Questions: Did Joseph continue to love his brothers in all the time he was estranged from them, or not?

Did Joseph weep so loud when the reconciliation came that the whole house of Pharaoh heard his loud sobs, or not?

Did Paul say that he could wish that he would become accursed from Christ for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh, or not?

And did he say that he had great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart for those who had been broken off, or not?

Did he call them those "who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises", or not?

Did he refer to them as those "WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.", or not?

So what do you think Paul means when he says,

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Paul is telling you that those who have been broken off are still BELOVED of God for the sake of the fathers - because though they have been unfaithful, yet God is faithful.

What's wrong with Christ caring about and LOVING His lost sheep of Israel and wanting nothing more than for them ALL to be grafted back in again?

We can glean from scripture in the account of Joseph and in many other accounts, as well as in what Paul said about the continual pain and sorrow in his heart because of Jews being cut off how God feels about it, how Jesus feels about it.

He who was born a Jew, of a Jewish woman in a Jewish family in a Jewish town in a Jewish community in a Jewish homeland. How do you think HE feels about the fact that most of His kinsmen according to the flesh are cut off?

As concerning the gospel, THEY are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning THE ELECTION, they are beloved for THE FATHER'S sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

"who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

IMO Romans 11 is misread alike by all who believe there are two Israel's, as well as by nearly all who know there is only one Israel - the latter misread it because they either fail to see. or see but fail to fully grasp the meaning of the words "BELOVED FOR THE FATHER'S SAKES. FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE.

I agree, it's not complicated if you understand the faithfulness of God and understand that God's faithfulness is not nullified by their unfaithfulness:

".. to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. WHOSE ARE THE FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.".

Christ is not done yet. He's coming back, you know?

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The election of Israel was not to salvation, but to receive God's revelation, God's law, to prepare for and to produce the Messiah.
Election to salvation means faith in Jesus Christ.


And that (i.e., beloved for the Father's sake) is being fulfilled in a remnant only (Ro 11:5), so that the gifts and calling of God remain without repentance.


Beloved, but not saved because of their unbelief.

That faithfulness is fulfilled in a remnant.

Correct. . .and their election is still being fulfilled. . .in those who believe; i.e., the remnant (Ro 11:5).
The gifts and calling of God to Israel is still without repentance, it being fulfilled in a remnant who believe.

What you are asserting is that Paul said,

"As touching the election, the elect remnant are beloved for the fathers’ sakes, but as concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes." -- Romans 11:28.

It is indeed what you have said, because you insist that Romans 11:28 is talking about the elect remnant.

Of course, what you assert makes no sense, and the reason why so many don't understand it IMO is because you do not fully understand what this means:

"If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, since he cannot deny himself." -- 2 Timothy 2:13

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." -- Romans 11:29.

It's clear you do not understand that their unfaithfulness does not change the faithfulness of God - so you have the elect remnant being beloved of God concerning the election, but enemies of the gospel, if your assertion is followed to its close - which makes no sense at all, of course.

You do not understand why being loved of God for the fathers' sakes concerning the election does not have to mean that they who are broken off are saved.

You underestimate God's faithfulness to His Word IMO, because you make God's faithfulness depend on whether or not humans are faithful. You place all the faithfulness of God into the hands of humans who are unfaithful. This is why you assert that God was talking about the elect remnant in Romans 11:28 and assert that it means,

"As touching the election, the elect remnant are beloved for the fathers’ sakes, but as concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes." -- Romans 11:28.
​

Anyway it's probably precisely because of this failure to believe in and understand the faithfulness of God as pertaining to His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and why it's not dependent on man's faithfulness, that Paul states that what he was saying is a mystery.