Remnant of Israel = 144,000

[trialbyfire]

Your statement is incorrect, Trialbyfire. Nowhere is it written that the 144,000 are standing before the throne. Instead, "they are without fault before the throne". Notice that "standing" is not part of that description.

For example, I can be "innocent" before the Supreme Court without ever literally standing before the justices. Exact wording is often quite important.

There is contradictory scriptural evidence indicating that the 144,000 are not literally standing before the throne. The first Biblical precedent is that "sealing" protects one so that one doesn't die. If the 144,000 are appointed to die or be raptured, what was the point of sealing them in the first place?

Second, they are appointed to be priests and reign "on earth" during the millennium.

Third, you and I may be "redeemed", but that does not necessarily mean we are in heaven at the throne.

Finally, there's that pesky detail about them standing on Mount Sion, on earth, with the Father's name on their foreheads. That sealing is for mere mortals. If they've already ascended to heaven then they no longer need to have the Father's name written in their foreheads.

If someone is singing before the throne of God, having been redeemed from the earth, where are they standing, Nighthawkeye?

Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These people are standing in heaven, before the throne, having been redeemed FROM THE EARTH!

 

[NightHawkeye]

If someone is singing before the throne of God, having been redeemed from the earth, where are they standing, Nighthawkeye?

LOL. Thought I already answered that, Trialbyfire.

Let me think about your question for a few moments ...

We already know where they are standing, that is on Mount Sion. Since you're choosing to ignore that pesky detail though, let me answer from a different perspective.

Hmm ... What exactly does singing before the throne mean? How far can God see? How far can God hear? Since Jesus already redeemed my soul am I in heaven now? (All, rhetorical questions, BTW.)

 

[zeke37]

and, hasn't His throne been here before?

why yes it has....

and, is God coming here ?

why yes He is

hmmm...

 

[zeke37]

and the very point that "a voice from heaven" is also heard, contrasts the ones on Mt Zion...

IOW, the Mt Zion group is NOT in heaven, where the voice is heard coming from...

 

[Jazer]

We know though that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel,

12,000 from each tribe and they will be able to verify it with DNA. They have already identified the Cohen gene marker from the natural decendants of Levi.

 

[anthony55]

The remnant of the 144000 is all the elect of God, saved from all over the World, both geographically and from the beginning of History, saved by the Triune God ! Its a symbolical figure !

 

[zeke37]

12,000 from each tribe and they will be able to verify it with DNA. They have already identified the Cohen gene marker from the natural decendants of Levi.

God is the One that knows who is who,
and He is the One that chose the 144,000...

God does not need DNA proof of anything.

so, who is this "they" that will be able to verify it ?

 

[NightHawkeye]

God is the One that knows who is who,
and He is the One that chose the 144,000...

God does not need DNA proof of anything.

so, who is this "they" that will be able to verify it ?

I was kinda thinking along similar lines, Zeke.

And to continue the thought, it seems like by the time the 144,000 are all present and going about their jobs, there's not gonna be much need for DNA testing. Anyone needing DNA proof for the 144,000 probably won't have been paying attention. Hmm ..., sounds a lot like those 5 foolish virgins, doesn't it?

 

[miamited]

Hello Nighthawkeye,

As for me, the remnant spoken of here is not the same remnant spoken of in many, not all, of the OT passages. Afterall, remnant is just a word to describe a small bit left from some original larger piece. There is a remnant of Israel, but I don't think that is what the Lord is speaking of here. We find in this passage of the revelation of our Lord, that the woman spoken of first has a child (vs 5). After the birth of the child, the woman fled into the desert (vs 6). After Jesus was born Israel's purpose was no longer necessary and was cast aside to make way for the the Savior. 'She' fled into the desert. Desert signifying a place where something might be put away, no longer useful. Then we are told that the Dragon disregarded the woman and began to make war against the 'rest of her offspring'. This 'offspring' is defined as those who obey God and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Satan is making war against the 'church'. The new body of believers who have come to God through the sacrifice of the Son.

This verse is actually one of the passages from which I gather that the faith of Israel is a dead faith today. Now, don't misunderstand. I am not implying in anyway that God will not keep His promise to faithful Israel, but the faith that God showed the children of Abraham through Moses of special food and sacrifice is now a dead faith. That faith was a tool in the hands of mighty and wise God. You see, today, we have more historical evidence of Jesus than any other 'religious' leader because God raised up the nation of Israel to do His bidding. However, now that Jesus has come, what the Scriptures refer to as the 'fullness of time', that law of faith that was given to Israel is no longer applicable nor serviceable.

I'm confident, in the Spirit, that the 'remnant of the seed' spoken of here are the believers since Jesus was born. The entire chapter follows a logical sequence of events.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Hello Nighthawkeye,

As for me, the remnant spoken of here is not the same remnant spoken of in many, not all, of the OT passages. Afterall, remnant is just a word to describe a small bit left from some original larger piece.

Yeah, but ...

A few weeks ago I posted the following in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7504279/
The parallels between Micah 4/5 and Revelation 12 are remarkable. Micah is clear about the end-times, just as Revelation is. They are clearly talking about the same events, just slightly different perspectives. I believe the book of Micah is consistent in the use of the term remnant so that limits the possibilities for interpretation considerably.


A Strong Nation - Cast Far Off - U.S.A?
Once again, there seems to be strong evidence supporting the possibility of the U.S.A. being the woman-in-travail.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

It seems clear enough here that the daughter of Zion:
1) is "cast far off"
2) becomes "a strong nation"
3) becomes "tower of the flock"
4) shall "go forth out of the city"
5) shall "dwell in the field"
6) "shall beat in pieces many people"

It is to this tower of the flock that the "kingdom" comes. If the end-times are to come soon, what else can the reference be to other than the U.S.A.

 

[zeke37]

you keep forgetting about me....
it's not JUST the USA

 

[miamited]

Hi again Nighthawkeye,

As I stated, I can't really see any similarity between the 'remnant' spoken of in Micah and the 'remnant' spoken of in Revelation other than the same word is used.

You'll find that in Genesis, Joseph refers to himself as being a 'remnant' which God left so that he could provide for his family during the severe famine.

In 2 Chronicles 36 you'll find in the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon that a 'remnant' was carried off.

The Scriptures speak of many remnants. In Micah 5:7-8 the Lord speaks of the remnant of Israel and explains it exactly as the passage in Revelation speaks as I have interpreted. Micah 5:7 tells us that:
The remnant of Jacob will be in the midst of many peoples like dew from the LORD, like showers on the grass, which do not wait for man or linger for mankind.

As the 'remnant' of Jacob, we know that the Lord is referring to Israel and this is a perfect description of the Diaspora. In 5:8 it is repeated with different qualifiers: The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among flocks of sheep, which mauls and mangles as it goes, and no one can rescue.

This 'remnant' is surely the 'remnant' of Israel.

However, in the Revelation, first we find in many translations that the word 'remnant' is not the word used to describe those who the dragon pursues, but rather 'offspring' (NIV), 'seed' (NAS), 'children' (CJB). Seems that one might say, "Hmmmm, why the change-up? You see, the implication of the word used in the Greek is not remnant, but rather 'offspring' or 'children'. Not those left behind as a remnant, but rather those made anew from what came about as of the end of the work of Israel - Jesus! 'Remnant' would infer the little that was left, but 'seed', 'offspring', 'children' would infer new beginning, those who came after the birth of our Lord mentioned in vs 5 and after the woman (Israel) fled into the desert, the Diaspora.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[interpreter]

If someone is singing before the throne of God, having been redeemed from the earth, where are they standing, Nighthawkeye?

Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These people are standing in heaven, before the throne, having been redeemed FROM THE EARTH!

The 144,000 are seen on Mt. Zion which is on earth. They are the 144,000 single male Jews who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. They were redeemed from around the earth.

 

[NightHawkeye]

you keep forgetting about me....
it's not JUST the USA

Kinda, but I'm never quite sure how to include you guys up North. (Insert favorite wise-crack here.) It's tough enough arguing against the naysayers without adding qualifiers ...

... and, you're pretty good at making your case succinctly, Zeke.


.

 

[canukian]

the 144,000 are describer as being without guile.
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

the elect are described as having a mark IN the forehead.
those serving the beast are described as having a mark IN the forhead.
the forhead is where morality is located.
to have guile is to decieve or lie. to have no guile is the oposite, aka truthfullness.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Hi again Nighthawkeye,

As I stated, I can't really see any similarity between the 'remnant' spoken of in Micah and the 'remnant' spoken of in Revelation other than the same word is used.

You'll find that in Genesis, Joseph refers to himself as being a 'remnant' which God left so that he could provide for his family during the severe famine.

Earlier, the book of Micah ties the remnant of Jacob and the remnant of Israel together as being the same:

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
​

In 2 Chronicles 36 you'll find in the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon that a 'remnant' was carried off.

I'm surprised that you don't recognize this as being the remnant of Israel, Ted. The very same remnant I've been referring to. Very few translations use the word remnant here though. Although describing the same group, I suspect that the root word here may actually be different.

The Scriptures speak of many remnants. In Micah 5:7-8 the Lord speaks of the remnant of Israel and explains it exactly as the passage in Revelation speaks as I have interpreted. Micah 5:7 tells us that:
The remnant of Jacob will be in the midst of many peoples like dew from the LORD, like showers on the grass, which do not wait for man or linger for mankind.

As the 'remnant' of Jacob, we know that the Lord is referring to Israel and this is a perfect description of the Diaspora. In 5:8 it is repeated with different qualifiers: The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among flocks of sheep, which mauls and mangles as it goes, and no one can rescue.

This 'remnant' is surely the 'remnant' of Israel.

Agreed. It seems that all remnants are Israel/Jacob. They appear to be the same.

However, in the Revelation, first we find in many translations that the word 'remnant' is not the word used to describe those who the dragon pursues, but rather 'offspring' (NIV), 'seed' (NAS), 'children' (CJB). Seems that one might say, "Hmmmm, why the change-up? You see, the implication of the word used in the Greek is not remnant, but rather 'offspring' or 'children'. Not those left behind as a remnant, but rather those made anew from what came about as of the end of the work of Israel - Jesus! 'Remnant' would infer the little that was left, but 'seed', 'offspring', 'children' would infer new beginning, those who came after the birth of our Lord mentioned in vs 5 and after the woman (Israel) fled into the desert, the Diaspora.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

Hmm ..., I'm just not seeing the distinction you're trying to make, Ted. The offspring of Jacob are the offspring of Israel are the remnant are the seed of Jacob. Just many different ways of describing the same thing. At least that's the way I see it.

.

 

[NightHawkeye]

the 144,000 are describer as being without guile.
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

the elect are described as having a mark IN the forehead.
those serving the beast are described as having a mark IN the forhead.
the forhead is where morality is located.
to have guile is to decieve or lie. to have no guile is the oposite, aka truthfullness.

WOW! I think maybe you're right, Canukian. Very nicely stated.

Consider also that none taking the mark of the beast enter into God's kingdom. Similarly, no liers enter into the kingdom.
.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
​

I understand deceit being in the forehead, but couldn't understand the right hand. Interestingly, thieves in Islamic countries have their right hands cut off. That is one of Allah's laws. Considering that Islam covers a large portion of the world, it makes sense.

Just have to wonder if it isn't an important clue ...


.

 

[dana b]

I guesse you guys might know this but just in case.

The 144,000 are sealed for the time of the end. This happened after 6000 years from Adam or six days. So that is why the number works like this;


....................................24 hours
..........................times....6 days
................................is 144
..........................times 1000(a day = 1000 years - 2 Pet.3;8 ect.)
...............................is 144,000

So that is why this number fits. It seals the tribes for the 7th day or millennium that we are into now.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I guesse you guys might know this but just in case.

The 144,000 are sealed for the time of the end. This happened after 6000 years from Adam or six days. So that is why the number works like this;


....................................24 hours
..........................times....6 days
................................is 144
..........................times 1000(a day = 1000 years - 2 Pet.3;8 ect.)
...............................is 144,000

So that is why this number fits. It seals the tribes for the 7th day or millennium that we are into now.

How does this account for 12,000 from each of twelve tribes?

.