Remnant of Israel = 144,000

[miamited]

Hi Dana,

Cute bit of mathematical calculation, but I must second the question asked by Nighthawkeye and ask further, how do you mathematically equate that we are now in the 7th millenium? According to the Jewish calendar, which if we believe that the Jews were responsible to bring us the truth should be the most accurate calendar, we are only now in the 5700-5900 years of creation. There is some discrepency as to the exact number of years, but as far as I know, there are no Jewish calendars that put us into the 6,000's yet.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[D.E.Smith]

One of the unanswered questions here recently has been the identity of the remnant of Revelation 12:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
​

From this verse it's not at all obvious who/what the remnant is. The 144,000 has been identified as a possibility, but one which has been dismissed by many. We know though that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel, without fault before the throne, and that no guile is found in their mouths.

Confirmation that the 144,000 are the remnant of Revelation 12 comes from multiple Bible verses:

Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

Micah 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
​

It seems clear enough that the remnant of Revelation 12 corresponds with the 144,000 from the tribes.

That the remnant is the 144,000 came as a bit of a surprise to me. Perhaps it shouldn't have though. It has long seemed like the "man-child" was the 144,000.

Well, I once thought that the remnant might be referring to the 144,000. But after further study, the following is the interpretation I have received. I have come to believe that the woman and the 144,000 are the same. The woman represent the believers who are ethnic Jews and so do the 144,000. This is not a literal number but a symbolic number of 12X12,000=144,000 which is a cubic number representing election as New Jerusalem is described as a cube.

REV 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.

144,000 represent those gathered by the Lord from the ethnic Jews. The cube in Revelations represent the gathering of all the elect both Jew and Gentile. The walls of the city reflect the glory of the saved.

REV 21:17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using.

The woman is the Jew first from which the church began and she is protected for times, times and a half or 1260 days in the wilderness with the wings of a great eagle.

The woman represents two women. She is the mother who gave birth to the man child..the woman from the Old Covenant law and the new bride of Christ which is the church of the New Covenant.

The great eagle represents Rome just as Babylon and Egypt were the great eagle in the former days.

(The great eagle Babylon)
Ezek 17:3 Say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: A great eagle with powerful wings, long feathers and full plumage of varied colors came to Lebanon. Taking hold of the top of a cedar, 4 he broke off its topmost shoot and carried it away to a land of merchants, where he planted it in a city of traders.

(The great eagle Egypt)
EZE 17:7 " `But there was another great eagle with powerful wings and full plumage. The vine now sent out its roots toward him from the plot where it was planted and stretched out its branches to him for water. 8 It had been planted in good soil by abundant water so that it would produce branches, bear fruit and become a splendid vine.'

Now Satan sent a flood to devour the woman. In scripture flood, waters and rivers in certain contexts are used to represent armies that sweep away its victims.

REV 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Dan 9:26 "The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

When Jeremiah prophesied the judgement of the first temple and Jerusalem, he used the metaphor of waters to describe the armies of Nebuchadnezzar:

JER 47:2 This is what the LORD says:
"See how the waters are rising in the north;
they will become an overflowing torrent.
They will overflow the land and everything in it,
the towns and those who live in them.
The people will cry out;
all who dwell in the land will wail

In prophecy the earth is used to represent the tribes of Israel and the sea the nations of the gentiles.

(The Gentile Nations)
REV 13:17 "And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name."

REV 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

When Isaiah was prophesying judgment upon Israel and Jerusalem which was fulfilled through the Babylonians and the Romans in the destruction of the first and second temple, the earth is used as a metaphor for Israel

(Israel)
ISA 24:5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.

Now the river that satan spewed out in pursuit of the woman is the Roman armies. The romans are the great eagle and the river.

However, Israel and Jerusalem (The earth) absorbed the force of Roman army when it was judged in 70 AD by our Lord. Because this distracted the beast, it helped the woman

Dan 9:26 "
The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Now the 1260 days the woman fled in the wilderness she was protected under Roman rule because the Romans limited the authority of apostate Judah that wanted to destroy the fledgling church. This 1260 days works out to 3 1/2 years which is the second half of Daniel's seventy week. At the end of this week the Apostle Paul was called and the gentiles was officially confirmed in the covenant.

The remnant of the woman's seed I believe to be gentile believers. Many believe that when God said he was going to bring Israel back from the nations that this is referring to those of natural jewish descent. In reality the ten lost tribes of Israel merged into the gentile nations and became as gentiles. They completely lost their jewish identity. However, they are brought back through faith in Christ. The gentiles who trust in Christ fulfills the promise to bring Israel back.

These are joined with the Jewish believers of Judah and made one. Judah's stick is joined with Ephraim to make one new man.

EZE 37:15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, `Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, `Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

EPH 2:14 "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace"

D.E.Smith

 

[NightHawkeye]

Well, I once thought that the remnant might be referring to the 144,000. But after further study, the following is the interpretation I have received.

Hi D.E.

Thanks for detailing your interpretation. I concur with much of it, but must take issue with a few aspects.

I have come to believe that the woman and the 144,000 are the same.

Gender conflict alone would seem to make this possibility unlikely. The 144,000 are male virgins. The woman is pregnant ...

I don't see how the conflict can be resolved.

The woman represent the believers who are ethnic Jews and so do the 144,000.

Depends on who the woman is. If Israel, then yes. However, if the woman is the "church", then no. I'm inclined toward the woman being church.

This is not a literal number but a symbolic number of 12X12,000=144,000 which is a cubic number representing election as New Jerusalem is described as a cube.

I'm inclined toward literal. I've simply not heard convincing arguments otherwise. The 144,000 are one of the foundations of New Jerusalem, along with Christ and the 12 apostles. The 144,000 serve as priests. God doesn't need everyone to be a priest and 144,000 sounds about right to me assuming a total population in the tens or even hundreds of millions.

The woman represents two women. She is the mother who gave birth to the man child..the woman from the Old Covenant law and the new bride of Christ which is the church of the New Covenant.

The woman and man-child certainly have their roots in Mary and Jesus, but certain aspects of the tale differ from historical accounts of their lives. Prophetically speaking, woman is synonymous with Church, and also Israel.

For a whole host of reasons the woman seems unlikely to be the Bride of Christ. Foremost among them though, incestuous relations seem rather blasphemous, even when figurative. Having the woman be both the mother to Christ and the bride to Christ just cuts wrong in a number of ways.

I agree though that the woman very likely represents the church under the New Covenant. Just not quite sure what the definition of church is here.

The great eagle represents Rome just as Babylon and Egypt were the great eagle in the former days.

I don't see this one at all, D.E. You provide references to Babylon and Egypt, but then out-of-the-blue jump to Rome. Makes no sense (at least to me).

Now Satan sent a flood to devour the woman. In scripture flood, waters and rivers in certain contexts are used to represent armies that sweep away its victims.

Certainly possible. Of course, that begs the question of what kind of army?

When Isaiah was prophesying judgment upon Israel and Jerusalem which was fulfilled through the Babylonians and the Romans in the destruction of the first and second temple, the earth is used as a metaphor for Israel

(Israel)
ISA 24:5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.

The definition of "earth" is interesting, but Isaiah 24 hardly proves that is the case.

The remnant of the woman's seed I believe to be gentile believers. Many believe that when God said he was going to bring Israel back from the nations that this is referring to those of natural jewish descent. In reality the ten lost tribes of Israel merged into the gentile nations and became as gentiles. They completely lost their jewish identity. However, they are brought back through faith in Christ. The gentiles who trust in Christ fulfills the promise to bring Israel back.

Interesting possibility, D.E. Tracing ancestry back 2000 years is a futile exercise, even with DNA. So much intermingling has occurred that it's hard to see how any of us could be from any single tribe. By now, it even seems likely that nearly everyone has some Israelite ancestry.

Not that God doesn't know, who's who, but it seems that if the remnant were of strictly Gentile ancestry, then very few people would qualify. That would mean the remnant would be very small.

One other thought about the remnant is that the dragon "makes war" with the remnant. OT prophecy indicates (I seem to recall) that some of the "elect" will fall. Might that refer to "Gentiles" who are not of the 144,000? It would lend credence to your last argument, D.E.


.

 

[D.E.Smith]

Hi D.E.

Thanks for detailing your interpretation. I concur with much of it, but must take issue with a few aspects.



Gender conflict alone would seem to make this possibility unlikely. The 144,000 are male virgins. The woman is pregnant ...

I don't see how the conflict can be resolved.



Depends on who the woman is. If Israel, then yes. However, if the woman is the "church", then no. I'm inclined toward the woman being church.



I'm inclined toward literal. I've simply not heard convincing arguments otherwise. The 144,000 are one of the foundations of New Jerusalem, along with Christ and the 12 apostles. The 144,000 serve as priests. God doesn't need everyone to be a priest and 144,000 sounds about right to me assuming a total population in the tens or even hundreds of millions.



The woman and man-child certainly have their roots in Mary and Jesus, but certain aspects of the tale differ from historical accounts of their lives. Prophetically speaking, woman is synonymous with Church, and also Israel.

For a whole host of reasons the woman seems unlikely to be the Bride of Christ. Foremost among them though, incestuous relations seem rather blasphemous, even when figurative. Having the woman be both the mother to Christ and the bride to Christ just cuts wrong in a number of ways.

I agree though that the woman very likely represents the church under the New Covenant. Just not quite sure what the definition of church is here.



I don't see this one at all, D.E. You provide references to Babylon and Egypt, but then out-of-the-blue jump to Rome. Makes no sense (at least to me).



Certainly possible. Of course, that begs the question of what kind of army?

The definition of "earth" is interesting, but Isaiah 24 hardly proves that is the case.




Interesting possibility, D.E. Tracing ancestry back 2000 years is a futile exercise, even with DNA. So much intermingling has occurred that it's hard to see how any of us could be from any single tribe. By now, it even seems likely that nearly everyone has some Israelite ancestry.

Not that God doesn't know, who's who, but it seems that if the remnant were of strictly Gentile ancestry, then very few people would qualify. That would mean the remnant would be very small.

One other thought about the remnant is that the dragon "makes war" with the remnant. OT prophecy indicates (I seem to recall) that some of the "elect" will fall. Might that refer to "Gentiles" who are not of the 144,000? It would lend credence to your last argument, D.E.


.

Thanks for your thoughtful critique and response. I will try to clarify some points. Some of the points are difficult subjects and since both of us are trying to dine on meat rather than milk in this discussion, some points may require further study in order for me to clarify. However, I will attempt to clarify a few points now.

On my point that the 144000 represent all the believers who are ethnic Jews, you pointed out:

"Gender conflict alone would seem to make this possibility unlikely. The 144,000 are male virgins. The woman is pregnant ..."

I believe the book of Revelations to be a book steeped in symbolism. No where in the bible can I find a teaching that to cohabitat with women defiles men. If we interpret the verse literally as meaning men who have never known women in an intimate way, the implication is that to marry defiles a man.

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.

A literal interpretation will lead us to believe all the brothers who marry are defiled. I don't believe the bible teaches this. To give some idea or how I see the whole of Revelations, I am going to mention something here that I do not believe can be explained in a single post. However, it is neccesary that I mention it here. It is this. The book of Revelations is the mystery of God revealed in three different views.

These views tell the same story with different details. These views are The Seal View, The Trumpet View, and The Bowl View. I believe that these views are given to John because God requires that a "matter be established by two or three witnesses". In the prophets, the prophecies were given to many prophets over many years. In some cases where a particular prophecy is given to one prophet it is given to him in more than one way.

Such is the case with the revelations of the beast that were given to Daniel in chapter 2 of the book of Daniel as a statue, in Chapter 7 of Daniel as a lion, bear, leopard and iron teeth beast. In Daniel 8 two are the beast are given as a ram and goat.

Now I am going to say that the 144000 who wre undefiled by women in Revelations 14 are the same 144000 in Revelations 7. They are different details are the same. The first 144000 are described in the Seal View after the opening of the sixth seal and the second 144000 are described in the trumpet view after the sounding of the seventh trumpet in the chronology of the text, but actually after the sixth trumpet when one studies the text in Revelations 10:7 and the declaration by the mighty angel whose feet were upon the land and the sea.

Revelations 14 state "these are firstfruits". In my interpretation, Revelation 7 and 14 fulfills the prophets as other New Testament scriptures that also fulfills the prophets. The "firstfruits" are the Jews who are called first into the new covenant.

ZEC 12:7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.

MT 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

When we interpret the bringing back of the jews based on dna and natural ancestry, we have to ignore certain scriptures even the very words of Christ.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

There is absolutely no one who is going to be saved because of dna or natural ancestry. The Jews of the Old Covenant are as the law a shadow of a greater promise. The land of Israel in the Old Covenant is a shadow of the spiritual people of the New Covenant and New Jerusalem. The believing gentiles are Ephraim. The believing Jews are Judah. The 144000 in Revelations 14 not defiled with women is an allusion to sin.

ZEC 5:6 I asked, "What is it?"
He replied, "It is a measuring basket. " And he added, "This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land."
ZEC 5:7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, "This is wickedness," and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth.

The 144000 are undefiled by sin which is wickedness, because they have been purified by the blood of Christ which is the only way to be sin free. It is impossible for anyone to be without sin by refraining from women or anything else. This was proved by the law in which no man was able to keep. The 144000 symbolize all the saved from Judah. We have to understand the separation of the lost tribes are a representation of the separation of man from a relationship with God.

Because of sin, man was separated from God and scattered throughout the earth. Because of the sin against the law, the lost tribes were scattered.

The whole purpose of the plan was to redeem man to a relationship with God. The natural Jews were merely an instrument to accomplish this and nothing more. This is the point Jesus was making when he told the Jews they were slaves and they said they had never been slaves. He told them they were a slave to sin.

The restoration they sought would be accomplished by Jesus overcoming sin, which is the promise made to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through his seed which we know is Christ. God is not a respecter of persons.

I had thought to mention a few other points here, but I think it is best to conclude here and address the other points in other posts.

Thank you for your consideration.
D.E.

 

[zeke37]

1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.



19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

 

[NightHawkeye]

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.

A literal interpretation will lead us to believe all the brothers who marry are defiled. I don't believe the bible teaches this.

I agree with you, D.E. I subscribe to the theory that women, as used here, are the churches which stray from God's truth. Hence, virgins are the ones who learn the gospel in TRUTH and obey God's commandments.

To give some idea or how I see the whole of Revelations, I am going to mention something here that I do not believe can be explained in a single post. However, it is neccesary that I mention it here. It is this. The book of Revelations is the mystery of God revealed in three different views.

Again, we are in agreement, D.E.

Now I am going to say that the 144000 who wre undefiled by women in Revelations 14 are the same 144000 in Revelations 7.

Again, we are in agreement, D.E.

The best summary of this which I've seen is at: The Seven Parallel Sections of the Book of Revelation

Naturally, I don't subscribe to everything there, but the site provides a concise summary of arguments for multiple views of the same events.

Revelations 14 state "these are firstfruits". In my interpretation, Revelation 7 and 14 fulfills the prophets as other New Testament scriptures that also fulfills the prophets. The "firstfruits" are the Jews who are called first into the new covenant.

ZEC 12:7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.

MT 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Interesting perspective, D.E. Thanks for offering it. Personally, I can't get my arms around all the OT Israelite heritage hierarchy. Maybe that's because I don't really know what my own heritage is for more than a couple of generations back, and even then it's incomplete.

All I can do is try to live my life in accordance with God's wishes. Beyond that it's up to God. Whether scriptures speak literally or figuratively on Israelite/Jewish/Joseph's heritage is way beyond anything I have control of. I'm inclined toward literal though, simply because a literal interpretation is possible.

The 144000 in Revelations 14 not defiled with women is an allusion to sin.

LOL. I hadn't thought about in such concise terms but, yeah, I mostly agree.

The whole purpose of the plan was to redeem man to a relationship with God. The natural Jews were merely an instrument to accomplish this and nothing more.

Once again, I am in agreement.

Thank you for your consideration.
D.E.

You're welcome, D.E.

Thank you for your considered responses as well, and welcome to CF.

.

 

[D.E.Smith]

Thanks again for sharing. Thanks for the welcome.

God Bless

 

[dana b]

How does this account for 12,000 from each of twelve tribes?

.

How indeed! Let me just say these, not direct answers to the above question but nescessary in understanding. This understanding has to be built, we need to know the Bible more and more. To be saved we need to trust in God and follow Jesus. But to understand the incredible working of his majesty we need to study and open our minds to allow them to grow following his knowledge.

Just as in Genesis Chapter seven when Noah and his family sits out the flood until chapter eight, so too is Revelations Chapter seven is a time when God's elect sit it out and are saved. Isn't this true? What relevance does this have?

In Romans 11;4 Paul tells us that God says "I have reserved to myself 7000 men..."

Which are the 7000 of Romans. Which are the 12000 of Revelations? Are they old Covenent Israelites and new testament christians.

Another thing. Just as the tribes were told to set their standards in the desert with six on one side, then God's land and then another six on the other side.Num.2 So if we count from either side then the center would be seven. So seven is the center of 12. Again 7 and 12

..........1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....6..............6.....5.....4.....3.....2.....1

.............................................(....7.....)...................................

O the dept and the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! Rom.11;33

 

[D.E.Smith]

How indeed! Let me just say these, not direct answers to the above question but nescessary in understanding. This understanding has to be built, we need to know the Bible more and more. To be saved we need to trust in God and follow Jesus. But to understand the incredible working of his majesty we need to study and open our minds to allow them to grow following his knowledge.

Just as in Genesis Chapter seven when Noah and his family sits out the flood until chapter eight, so too is Revelations Chapter seven is a time when God's elect sit it out and are saved. Isn't this true? What relevance does this have?

In Romans 11;4 Paul tells us that God says "I have reserved to myself 7000 men..."

Which are the 7000 of Romans. Which are the 12000 of Revelations? Are they old Covenent Israelites and new testament christians.

Another thing. Just as the tribes were told to set their standards in the desert with six on one side, then God's land and then another six on the other side.Num.2 So if we count from either side then the center would be seven. So seven is the center of 12. Again 7 and 12

..........1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....6..............6.....5.....4.....3.....2.....1

.............................................(....7.....)...................................

O the dept and the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! Rom.11;33

Hi Dana,

Interesting. But I would suggest that the 12000 in the 12 tribes in Revelations is another way of describing the 144000. 12x12000=144000.
Just as the 144000 represent all the elect from among Judah (Jews) so do the 12000 represent all jewish believers. The numbers appear to be a symbolic representation and not the exact representation of a number. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

God Bless

 

[dana b]

Hi Dana,

Interesting. But I would suggest that the 12000 in the 12 tribes in Revelations is another way of describing the 144000. 12x12000=144000.
Just as the 144000 represent all the elect from among Judah (Jews) so do the 12000 represent all jewish believers. The numbers appear to be a symbolic representation and not the exact representation of a number. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

God Bless

Thanks for the info D.E. Smith,

I might add, and you might have realized already that the number 144000 is used in Revelations chapters 7,14 and 21. Every seven chapters.

 

[interpreter]

Hi again guys. The remnant of chapter 12 is clearly Christians, whereas the 144,000 are clearly single male Jews. That's how many escaped the great tribulation of WW II and were available to the new Israeli army in 1948. There were probably a few Christians among them. I myself am a Christian Jew.

 

[D.E.Smith]

Yes, the 144000 are represented in Chapters 7, 14, and 21 of Revelations. The 1440000 in chapters 7 and 14 I believe are the Jews of the faith. The measurements of the City in Revelations with its 144 cubit thick walls and 12000 cubit measurements is a figure that represents all the saved both Jew and gentiles who are the new jews of New Jerusalem.

God Bless
Thanks for sharing

 

[zeke37]

Hi again guys. The remnant of chapter 12 is clearly Christians, whereas the 144,000 are clearly single male Jews.

nope...clearly not...the 144,000 are not all Christian Jews...


they are from all Israel (including the scattered 10 northern tribes)
and who they became over time and migration.

their literal virginity is not at issue...

their spiritual virginity is, as we are supposed to be chased virgins for Christ and the wedding.

based on who (Who) you worship




when you call them ALL Jews, you miss who they really are...Israel,
not just Jews.

2 houses of Israel.....not one.

 

[zeke37]

Yes, the 144000 are represented in Chapters 7, 14, and 21 of Revelations. The 1440000 in chapters 7 and 14 I believe are the Jews of the faith. The measurements of the City in Revelations with its 144 cubit thick walls and 12000 cubit measurements is a figure that represents all the saved both Jew and gentiles who are the new jews of New Jerusalem.

God Bless
Thanks for sharing

Hi, where do you get "jews" from?

and what of the rest of the tribes of Israel?

 

[D.E.Smith]

nope...clearly not...the 144,000 are not all Christian Jews...


they are from all Israel (including the scattered 10 northern tribes)
and who they became over time and migration.

their literal virginity is not at issue...

their spiritual virginity is, as we are supposed to be chased virgins for Christ and the wedding.

based on who (Who) you worship




when you call them ALL Jews, you miss who they really are...Israel,
not just Jews.

2 houses of Israel.....not one.

According to scripture God's intention is one kingdom and one house that consists of Jews born according to the spirit. This is foreshadowed in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New. One nation Israel. One king Christ


EZE 37:15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, `Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, `Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
EZE 37:18 "When your countrymen ask you, `Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph--which is in Ephraim's hand--and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

Ezekiel is fulfilled through Christ and his New Testament. The gentiles are joined to the jews by faith in Christ and a new man (Jew) is created from the two.

EPH 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
EPH 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Paul sees the gentiles as I do. He sees them as the returning lost tribes of Israel. He quotes from Hosea a scripture that when it was written was clearly understood to be referencing the departed Northern Kingdom.

HOS 1:4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel's bow in the Valley of Jezreel."

HOS 1:10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, `You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living God.' 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

The Israelites (the people of Israel) who would be joined to Judah are gentiles according to the Apostle Paul:

Ro 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them `my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her `my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
RO 9:26 and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
`You are not my people,'
they will be called `sons of the living God.' "

D.E.

 

[zeke37]

change "jew" to "Israel" and we have no argument

otherwise you forget 10 tribes

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[D.E.Smith]

change "jew" to "Israel" and we have no argument

otherwise you forget 10 tribes

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I can agree with that, although they both mean the same thing to me. Let's call them Israel.

God Bless

 

[dana b]

change "jew" to "Israel" and we have no argument

otherwise you forget 10 tribes

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Yes, Jesus said for his diciples, "Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt.10;6 This indeed means the 10 lost tribes. The tribe of Judah was not lost!

 

[D.E.Smith]

Yes, Jesus said for his diciples, "Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt.10;6 This indeed means the 10 lost tribes. The tribe of Judah was not lost!

Thanks danaB. The context is Judah. After the Northern Kingdom was scattered, the name Israel was used interchangeably with Judah to refer to the southern Kingdom which is Judah. For example Daniel referred to the people of Judah as Israel:

DA 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill

When Jesus met the canaanite woman he said this:

MT 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
MT 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
MT 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

This is clearly a reference to his ministry unto the jews of Judah whom the gospel was give to first. Jesus brought the gospel to the Jews first. Paul understood this.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

James was one of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. He was likely writing specifically to the persecuted brothers (the believers from Judah) who had been scattered from the Jerusalem church. His writing generally applies to all christians.

AC 8:1 "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria."

Judah was lost. They were lost to sin. Christ gave a parable to illustrate how lost they were. Jesus in his ministry to the jews of Judah chose those among Judah who would hear him and this was not looked upon favorably by the establishment. He told a parable to illustrate this point.

LK 15:1 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
LK 15:3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, `Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'

Thanks for sharing
D.E.






.

 

[dana b]

Thanks danaB. The context is Judah. After the Northern Kingdom was scattered, the name Israel was used interchangeably with Judah to refer to the southern Kingdom which is Judah. For example Daniel referred to the people of Judah as Israel:

DA 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill

When Jesus met the canaanite woman he said this:

MT 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
MT 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
MT 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

This is clearly a reference to his ministry unto the jews of Judah whom the gospel was give to first. Jesus brought the gospel to the Jews first. Paul understood this.

RO 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

James was one of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. He was likely writing specifically to the persecuted brothers (the believers from Judah) who had been scattered from the Jerusalem church. His writing generally applies to all christians.

AC 8:1 "On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria."

Judah was lost. They were lost to sin. Christ gave a parable to illustrate how lost they were. Jesus in his ministry to the jews of Judah chose those among Judah who would hear him and this was not looked upon favorably by the establishment. He told a parable to illustrate this point.

LK 15:1 Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
LK 15:3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, `Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'

Thanks for sharing
D.E.


Judah is a part of Israel. Israel is not a part of Judah. Judah is only one of the twelve tribes. Israel is all twelve tribes.

When Daniel prayed he considered himself part of Israel, which is all the tribes. Even though he was himself personaly probably from the tribe of Judah. But he never prayed for Judah. He prayed for the full house of Israel.

When Paul wrote it was to the Gentiles who knew not of the other lost tribes. So Paul speaks to them of the Jews, who were still around in the area. He does't mention the other tribes because they were unkown to the Gentiles since they long ceased to exist as a group.

But Jesus and James speak of the "lost tribes" and are attempting to recover them. They don't speak of Judah at all.

To say that Judah was a lost tribe undermines the terminology. Then what are the other actual lost tribes who were taken captivity to Assyria and never regrouped? Are they then the " lost lost tribes?"