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Remnant of Israel = 144,000

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by NightHawkeye, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    One of the unanswered questions here recently has been the identity of the remnant of Revelation 12:
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    From this verse it's not at all obvious who/what the remnant is. The 144,000 has been identified as a possibility, but one which has been dismissed by many. We know though that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel, without fault before the throne, and that no guile is found in their mouths.

    Confirmation that the 144,000 are the remnant of Revelation 12 comes from multiple Bible verses:
    Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

    Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
    21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
    22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

    Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

    Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

    Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

    Micah 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

    Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

    Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
    It seems clear enough that the remnant of Revelation 12 corresponds with the 144,000 from the tribes.

    That the remnant is the 144,000 came as a bit of a surprise to me. Perhaps it shouldn't have though. It has long seemed like the "man-child" was the 144,000.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  2. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    Hi
    I realize you believe the 144,000 are the Man Child caught up in Rev12

    consider that those promises by God, for and about the remnant, might be fulfilled after/during the Millennium,
    so it is at least an option for me to see them as those believers other than the 144,000.

    IMO the remnant mentioned at the end of the chapter
    has a different identity than the Man Child, Who I believe to be Christ.

    they are in the same chapter/vision, yet have different names...
    The 144,000 are sealed and protected before the 4 trib winds blow....
    Satan cannot go after them...he cannot sting them....
    he goes after the rest of the believers, other than the 144,000
    and he will be successful in beguiling/seducing them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  3. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    I should probably clarify my position for you ...

    I'm a technical geek.

    When 2+2 is seen, the result is 4. Anyone says the result equals 8 is wrong. Some things are really that cut-and-dried. Not sure this is one of them though ...

    This is more like we see 2 here and we also see 2 over there. Conclusive evidence shows they exhibit the same characteristics. There is also evidence strongly suggesting that they are the same, but not conclusive.

    I simply follow the evidence. Truth is truth, regardless of any prior beliefs I might have (or you might have). I'm kinda like an AA member in that regard. I can only take one step at a time. Sometimes it's forward, other times backwards.

    Thanks for elucidating that. It's a useful perspective. Some of the verses I cited certainly are for the millennium. Others appear to pre-date the millennium though.

    Won't argue with ya, since ya didn't present any evidence ... ;)

    There's a subtlety here that's under-appreciated. The OT precedent for sealing is protection from God's wrath, not from Satan. Some proof of protection from Satan would help resolve this.

    I also seem to recall that there are OT verses indicating that some of the remnant will fall during tribulation. "They will be given a little help ... "
     
  4. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    The remnant of Israel is the 144,000 young Jewish men of fighting age who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by escaping to the Holy Land, and they were available to the new Israeli army of 1948. 100,000 joined the army, and 44,000 were conscientious objectors (i.e, Orthodox Jews).
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  5. trialbyfire

    trialbyfire New Member

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    In Revelation, there are two sets of 144,000 peoples.

    1. 144,000 of the tribes of Israel (Rev 7)
    2. 144,000 from among men (Rev 14)

    In Revelation 12, there are four "characters" discussed.

    1. The woman (Israel) who is protected and untouched by the devil.
    2. The manchild (church) who is caught up to the throne of God.
    3. The dragon (devil) who is cast down by Michael, the archangel.
    4. The remnant of the woman's offspring whom the devil makes war with after the church is gone and the woman is protected.

    Therefore, the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and shown as protected (Rev 9) from the devil in Revelation are not the child and they are not the remnant of the woman's offspring. They are the woman.

    Therefore, the 144,000 from among men (Rev 14) who is seen in heaven is not the woman, not the remnant of the woman's offspring. They are the manchild.

    There are two remnants mentioned in Revelation -

    1. the remnant of Israel that is sealed and protected from the devil (144,000 of Israel/the woman).

    2. the remnant of the woman's offspring that the devil makes war with. (Christians and Jews who are not of the church or of the woman)

    They are not the same. One is made war with. One is protected away from the devil.
     
  6. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    I daresay you ass u me a lot here, Trialbyfire. Much is contradicted by scripture.

    Actually, the woman flees to the wilderness. Doesn't say she is untouched. It says instead, the devil "persecuted the woman" after the woman brought forth the man-child.

    Hence, woman doesn't fit criteria to be the 144,000.
    Present compelling irrefutable evidence if you really believe this. The generally accepted interpetation of woman is "church". Again, if you have some real evidence for your statement, please provide it.
    Yep.
    Failing to get the woman right, makes this subsequent event wrong as well.

    The remnant is the 144,000, but not the woman.

    You're demonstrably wrong on this, Trialbyfire. The remnant of Revelation 12 "keep the commandments of God" and therefore are clearly of the church.
    Remnant is specified three times in Revelation:
    a) The remnant of Revelation 11 are "affrighted" and give Glory to God.
    b) The remnant of Revelation 12 keep the commandments of God.
    c) The remnant of Revelation 19 are slain with the sword-from-the-mouth.

    It's possible that the remnant of Rev 11 are not of the church, but that's kinda irrelevant to this thread. It seems that the remnant of Rev 19 would not be of the church but, again, that's also irrelevant to this thread.


    .
     
  7. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    some view Satan and what he does as part of God's wrath...

    but anyway...Luk21 protection promised to the witnessing elect,
    Rev9 limits the locust armies actions to those marked....

    my pastor did a study on that'little help" part...
    have to get my notes...
    I think the Hebrew clears it up...
     
  8. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Understandable ..., and in that vein:
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    As I look at this, I have to wonder ... there are really only two possibilities:
    1) the "saints" are tested and literally killed, or
    2) the "saints" have already been tested and found worthy.

    If the latter, then the war ends when the voices of the saints are quieted (at least for practical purposes). In either case, these saints appear to be the remnant of Revelation 12. I'm inclined to believe possibility 2 above, because the first choice above would be in contradiction with what's stated elsewhere about the 144,000. Of course, if the saints are other than the 144,000 then possibilities expand considerably ...

    Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
    Kinda suggests the second possibility above, doesn't it? Of, course, there's that pesky part about some being put to death ...

    Again, an argument for the second possibility ...

    I'd like to see that, Zeke.


    .
     
  9. trialbyfire

    trialbyfire New Member

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    Ok, now you're way off. The woman is not the church. The remnant of the devil's armies in Rev 19 are not the same remnant as the remnant of Israel or the remnant of the woman's offspring.

    It doesn't matter what "people" say or what the "popular opinion" is. It only matters what Scripture says.

    The 144,000 of Israel are never seen in heaven in Revelation. The church is. No one else, besides the church, is ever caught up to the throne of God.

    The devil can't touch the woman. He "persecutes the woman" by sending the flood (armies) after her (gog) whom God destroys. It says she is protected away from the devil for 42 months. The devil can't touch the 144,000 of Israel (Rev 9). The woman is Israel - the Kingdom of God.

    The remnant of the woman's offspring are people who are not the woman, not the church, but who choose to believe after the church is caught up. They are judged by their works. Only those who are beheaded at that time are judged worthy to be a part of the church AFTER Christ comes to destroy.

    The remnant who are destroyed by Christ are specifically the rest of the armies of the devil who gathered to fight against Christ.
     
  10. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    OK. It's OK for you to have those opinions, Trialbyfire. Really.

    I agree fully. There are really only three things posters here can do: prove, disprove or make noise. The choice is yours, Trialbyfire.

    LOL. I can't wait to hear how you explain this away then ...

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    It's good you have this all figured out, Trialbyfire. It's important to have opinions. Just be sure to keep an open mind so that when new information comes along you'll be able to deal with it.

    LOL. That's another nice opinion, Trialbyfire.

    Can't argue too much with this one. It's not entirely clear though whether those destroyed are just Satan's army, or whether simple mis-guided individuals are included as well.
     
  11. FaithPleases

    FaithPleases Newbie

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    What is going on with this UFO talk? Are they spirits?
     
  12. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Dang! I musta missed 'em again ... ^_^ ^_^ ^_^


    .
     
  13. FaithPleases

    FaithPleases Newbie

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    Serious people. I am scared and the last thing I want to deal with besides problems with physical people is spiritual demons.
     
  14. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Get on your knees and say the Lord's prayer.

    That's all it takes ..., well with meaning and understanding, of course.


    .
     
  15. trialbyfire

    trialbyfire New Member

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    What do you mean, "explain it away"? That's the church! Like I said, there are two sets of 144,000 people in Revelation. Revelation 7 shows 144,000 of Israel sealed on earth, protected from the devil (Rev 9). Revelation 14 shows 144,000 from among men standing in heaven which is the church. Nobody goes to heaven except the church.

    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

    Rev 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
     
  16. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    u'r the only one that I have come across (except your alter ego)
    that believes the 144,000 of Rev7 are not the same folks as the 144,000 of Rev14

    Rev14's 144,000...heaven is not their location, earth is.
    Christ is here on Mt Zion with the gathered elect who were alive at His Coming,
    but heaven is where the voice of many waters comes from...
    (it's the dead in heaven of Rev19:1-3)


    consider Rev5

    8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
     
  17. trialbyfire

    trialbyfire New Member

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    Revelation 14


    1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


    These people are standing in heaven, before the throne, having been redeemed FROM THE EARTH!
     
  18. the.Sheepdog

    the.Sheepdog You must be born again!

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    zeke is right in this brother Trailbyfire. Those 144k are the same young Jewish men who are saved listening to the two witnesses at the wall. They then are sealed from all harm and move all over the world for His witness.
     
  19. trialbyfire

    trialbyfire New Member

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    Prove it with Scriptures. Revelation 14 doesn't say anything that you have said here.

    "Two witnesses at the wall" is unscriptural. That is from "Left Behind" fictional series.
     
  20. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Your statement is incorrect, Trialbyfire. Nowhere is it written that the 144,000 are standing before the throne. Instead, "they are without fault before the throne". Notice that "standing" is not part of that description.

    For example, I can be "innocent" before the Supreme Court without ever literally standing before the justices. Exact wording is often quite important.

    There is contradictory scriptural evidence indicating that the 144,000 are not literally standing before the throne. The first Biblical precedent is that "sealing" protects one so that one doesn't die. If the 144,000 are appointed to die or be raptured, what was the point of sealing them in the first place? :confused:

    Second, they are appointed to be priests and reign "on earth" during the millennium.

    Third, you and I may be "redeemed", but that does not necessarily mean we are in heaven at the throne.

    Finally, there's that pesky detail about them standing on Mount Sion, on earth, with the Father's name on their foreheads. That sealing is for mere mortals. If they've already ascended to heaven then they no longer need to have the Father's name written in their foreheads.