Rejecting evolution & believing the Earth is flat

[Willtor]

Lord of the Rings was set in another world, "Middle Earth", so not really applicable, but I understand your meaning. IMO, it's not that the bible seems antiquated or backward, it is just dead wrong on some points, which makes no sense if an omniscient God had his hand in it.

Middle Earth is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, though. Tolkien thought he was writing the mythology of the English people. It's much more fantasy than ancient mythology, but I think that has more to do with the fact that history was known much better in Tolkien's time than it had been in the ancient world. In Greek mythology, for example, you have descents into Hades. There's no Hades under the surface of the Earth. But it doesn't undermine the stories they were trying to tell. The purpose was not to teach people cosmology.

Also, I'm not clear on the distinction you're drawing between "antiquated and backward" and "just dead wrong." A flat earth with a dome really is what people used to think.

 

[Black Dog]

Middle Earth is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, though. Tolkien thought he was writing the mythology of the English people. It's much more fantasy than ancient mythology, but I think that has more to do with the fact that history was known much better in Tolkien's time than it had been in the ancient world. In Greek mythology, for example, you have descents into Hades. There's no Hades under the surface of the Earth. But it doesn't undermine the stories they were trying to tell. The purpose was not to teach people cosmology.

Sorry, I misunderstood you before. Got it now.

Also, I'm not clear on the distinction you're drawing between "antiquated and backward" and "just dead wrong." A flat earth with a dome really is what people used to think.

I understand. I was commenting that in my opinion this indicates the bible is not the word of God, nor God inspired.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry, I misunderstood you before. Got it now.

You misunderstood something that was written by Wiltor. Just because you misunderstood what he said, doesn't mean that he didn't write it, nor that what he said was wrong. It just means you misunderstood what was written. Flat earthers, and others, have taken some versus and interpreted them to mean something the author did not state. Doesn't mean He didn't write them nor that what is said is wrong.

 

[Willtor]

Sorry, I misunderstood you before. Got it now.

I understand. I was commenting that in my opinion this indicates the bible is not the word of God, nor God inspired.

No worries.

Yeah, if I may take one step back in terms of reasoning, in your opinion, God would not inspire mythology (correct me if I'm mistaken -- I hate to misrepresent). I think this view is pretty widely held both among Christians and non. The former use this as an argument for why there is no mythology in the Bible, and the latter use it as an argument for why the Bible is not inspired.

 

[Papias]

Is it common for people who reject evolution to also believe the earth is flat? When somebody says that they take the Bible literally, I want to know how literally they take it.

That's actually a little different from the OP. The OP asked if the Bibles literally described a flat earth. They do. As we saw, JackRT gave a great historical and scriptural description of this. Also - did you see my posts #9 (which gives additional scripture and a picture to make this easier to see), and #10 (which explains how natural and normal this view actually is when looking around)?

Your question here - about how many actually believe in a flat earth based on scripture - is not the same as asking what the scripture actually says. I'd like to think that only a minority of creationists stick to the literal approach when it comes to a flat earth, and instead, that most come up with all kinds of dismissals and rationalizations for scripture as they deny what the scripture says - as we saw in post #19.

I'd love to see actual data on what % believe in a flat earth. Creationists are about 30% of the US population (about half of all Christians). I did find data that shows that 25% of Americans think that the sun goes around the earth, so maybe it's a bigger chunk of creationists after all. This article casts it as ignorance, but it does the same for creationism in the same article, so perhaps many of those geocentrists aren't "ignorant", but instead are scriptural literalists - as in the case of evolution deniers.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ink-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

Biblical literalists do have their own webpages on supporting a flat earth, such as this one:

http://www.testingtheglobe.com/bible.html

I've also seen plenty of videos from Christian literalists reading their Bibles and realizing that they clearly in support of a flat earth. Just search on youtube - Or I can post some if you like (and there are a ton of them on that website above - just search around).

In Christ -

Papias

 

[Black Dog]

You misunderstood something that was written by Wiltor. Just because you misunderstood what he said, doesn't mean that he didn't write it, nor that what he said was wrong. It just means you misunderstood what was written. Flat earthers, and others, have taken some versus and interpreted them to mean something the author did not state. Doesn't mean He didn't write them nor that what is said is wrong.

I don't think I implied anything about what was written, just said that I had misunderstood his point.

 

[Black Dog]

No worries.

Yeah, if I may take one step back in terms of reasoning, in your opinion, God would not inspire mythology (correct me if I'm mistaken -- I hate to misrepresent). I think this view is pretty widely held both among Christians and non. The former use this as an argument for why there is no mythology in the Bible, and the latter use it as an argument for why the Bible is not inspired.

I don't think it would make much sense for God to put mythology in His sacred book. If He is omniscient, then he must have known that eventually we would figure out all the mistakes, and that eventually people would use their brains and quit believing. So how can someone be sent to Hell for not believing (as some Christians have said) when believing would be misusing the brain He gave us? It all gets very contradictory.

 

[Papias]

So how can someone be sent to Hell for not believing (as some Christians have said) when believing would be misusing the brain He gave us?

Most of your post deals with philosophy and apologetics, so I'll leave it to others/another forum.

Just as a clarification (to support part of your post), it's not just "some Christians" - many places in the various Bibles (as you know, different churches have different Bibles, with different books) make it clear that people are sent to hell if they don't believe. It doesn't matter how good someone is, unbelievers go to Hell.

Some examples include john 14:6, Rom 1, Rev, 21:8, Rom 2:12, etc.

Papias

 

[Willtor]

I don't think it would make much sense for God to put mythology in His sacred book. If He is omniscient, then he must have known that eventually we would figure out all the mistakes, and that eventually people would use their brains and quit believing. So how can someone be sent to Hell for not believing (as some Christians have said) when believing would be misusing the brain He gave us? It all gets very contradictory.

Re: Mistakes: The Bible has errors, but I don't think categorizing ancient cosmologies in the context of mythology as "mistakes" is accurate, any more than a flat Middle Earth would be a mistake or a Hades under our feet is a mistake. Mythology is a form of literature. If a mythology has errors, it's in the messages it intends to communicate -- not in the forms in which it's expressed.

 

[ecco]

It's sorta in the thread title. Is it common for people who reject evolution to also believe the earth is flat?

NO - In capital letters. I have only come across 1 or two flatearthers and 3 or 4 who support Geocentricism. There are a lot more who do not believe in evolution.

When somebody says that they take the Bible literally, I want to know how literally they take it.

From my observations, most non-evolution, spherical earth believers, take a literal reading of "Four Corners of the Earth" but take it as a literally true colloquialism and point to current speech usages like sunrise and sunset. Beyond that, the line between literal and allegorical is all over the map. Ask five people and you'll get 10 answers. The interesting question to ask is "why".


As an aside, regardless of the level of the beliefs, almost all seem to feel that just biblical belief is not enough. Almost all make their arguments based on perceived holes in the theory of evolution like "irreducible complexity", "gaps in the fossil record" and "impossibility of macro evolution" and "scientific proofs" for things like the Flood. The basis for these arguments come from sites like AIG. Very few just state "I believe in Genesis - period". In fact, some will not even mention Genesis when pressed.

 

[Frenzy]

For most people their faith is not strong enough that's why they need to go looking for evidence such as the Ark.
That's why the "creation museum" was built to try and give people some reality to the myth.
When cornered they crawl back to their faith, when continually cornered their faith let's them down and they cry foul.

 

[Black Dog]

Most of your post deals with philosophy and apologetics, so I'll leave it to others/another forum.

Just as a clarification (to support part of your post), it's not just "some Christians" - many places in the various Bibles (as you know, different churches have different Bibles, with different books) make it clear that people are sent to hell if they don't believe. It doesn't matter how good someone is, unbelievers go to Hell.

Some examples include john 14:6, Rom 1, Rev, 21:8, Rom 2:12, etc.

Papias

I understand, but there are so many factions of Christianity, some don't believe that. Doesn't/didn't Billy Graham believe non-believers were just "annihilated" (in a good way)?

 

[Black Dog]

Re: Mistakes: The Bible has errors, but I don't think categorizing ancient cosmologies in the context of mythology as "mistakes" is accurate, any more than a flat Middle Earth would be a mistake or a Hades under our feet is a mistake. Mythology is a form of literature. If a mythology has errors, it's in the messages it intends to communicate -- not in the forms in which it's expressed.

OK, I can live with that. Thanks for the interesting conversation, you gave me some food for thought.

 

[Willtor]

I understand, but there are so many factions of Christianity, some don't believe that. Doesn't/didn't Billy Graham believe non-believers were just "annihilated" (in a good way)?

Yeah. There has been widespread agreement among theologians and interpreters of the Bible that there is a Hell for non-believers. But there are notable exceptions to that. There are/have been universalists, annihilists, and people who think that Hell is something altogether different from the popular [Western] conception. In the last category is pretty much the whole Eastern Church.

 

[Frenzy]

Yeah. There has been widespread agreement among theologians and interpreters of the Bible that there is a Hell for non-believers. But there are notable exceptions to that. There are/have been universalists, annihilists, and people who think that Hell is something altogether different from the popular [Western] conception. In the last category is pretty much the whole Eastern Church.

Yes everything by everyone is just pure unadulterated speculation, could be's, maybe's, perhaps, what if's, how about.
Then we die and everything for us just stops and we are no more.

 

[Willtor]

Yes everything by everyone is just pure unadulterated speculation, could be's, maybe's, perhaps, what if's, how about.
Then we die and everything for us just stops and we are no more.

AFAIK, nobody thinks the Bible says that. It seems inconsistent with this notion of Jesus "defeating death" in the resurrection.

 

[Papias]

I understand, but there are so many factions of Christianity, some don't believe that. Doesn't/didn't Billy Graham believe non-believers were just "annihilated" (in a good way)?

Yes. As Willtor said, Biblical scholars and theologians are pretty clear, but yes, there are plenty of other Christians who see anything in all kinds of ways. Heck, the whole Jehovah's Witnesses church believes in annihilation, not Hell.

Papias

 

[Black Dog]

Yes. As Willtor said, Biblical scholars and theologians are pretty clear, but yes, there are plenty of other Christians who see anything in all kinds of ways. Heck, the whole Jehovah's Witnesses church believes in annihilation, not Hell.

Papias

Cool. If I have my choice, I'll take annihilation over eternal life every time.

 

[Frenzy]

Cool. If I have my choice, I'll take annihilation over eternal life every time.

No choice required or given, it's exactly the same for everything.
I read somewhere here that death should be called 'returning' because when we die we just return to the same state we were in before we were conceived, in other words we just cease to exist again, to me that makes perfect sense.

 

[Willtor]

No choice required or given, it's exactly the same for everything.
I read somewhere here that death should be called 'returning' because when we die we just return to the same state we were in before we were conceived, in other words we just cease to exist again, to me that makes perfect sense.

... unless we don't return to the same state we were in before we were conceived. Even from a purely naturalistic standpoint, things are not the same for the people around us. We've had an impact on them. And if we are annihilated, whatever word we use is for those people. Death is a good word for it, whether there's another life or no.