Refuting OSAS in jesus name (2)

[lori milne]

Eternal

if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭22‬ KJV)

this is a very simple and clear verse that closely lines up with all that the word of God says continually
their is a contingency IF THOU" we have an obligation to stay the cores

GOD is for knowing so he sees everything that has been so this makes our free will a bit confusing but never the less it is a choice we all have
to come to GOD, to stay with GOD. even a 3rd of the angels fell from heaven why would we be any different.
gods foreknowledge is and will always be a mystery to us.

free will isn't in a man that chooses against Christ, your incapable to do anything but go to hell, so you have no free will.
but once you become a follower of Christ your free will is available to refrain from or obtain from erring.
that's the theology version of that twisted idea but its clear man has free will to choose either way.

Christ died rose again and ascended to heaven to DRAW all men. if thats true then why aren't all men going to heaven>??
we have a choice to follow christ or not and to fall away from the faith or err even be cut off GOD forbid

 

[FreeGrace2]

both sides of theology of the reformation, being their are two
clavins side and Luthers side.

I think my point was missed. You said: "My church stays none denominational to the core and scripturally will present both sides."

The point is: Scripture doesn't present "both sides". Scripture presents the Truth. If one wants "sides", then there is the side of truth, and the other side is false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable. Why don't you believe that?"

i do believe that 1000% but its our definitions of what Gods promise is versus are obligation as men are.

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If eternal life is irrevocable, then that IS God's promise. There is no "versus" here. And our obligation to God is NOT related to our salvation.

does the bible say do or dont? then we have an obligation to those rules yes?

Of course we do. But NOT to maintain or hold on to our salvation.

other wise their wouldn't be any do's and donts if they were meaningless./?
does that make sense how I put it?

The warnings are NOT meaningless. I'm beginning to think that those who believe in conditional security were never punished properly as children, so don't have any reference for what that means.

Let's have a peek at the kind of discipline God had in store for King David:
Psa 32:3-5
3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat ofsummer. 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.


Psa 38:1-11
I think v.1 is quite instructive:
"O LORD, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath. O LORD, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath."

but read the rest through v.11 to see what divine discipline is all about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭22‬ KJV)

this is a very simple and clear verse that closely lines up with all that the word of God says continually
their is a contingency IF THOU" we have an obligation to stay the cores

I explained that the passage was figurative language about agriculture. When a branch doesn't produce, it is not beneficial to the farmer and he cuts it off. This isn't about loss of salvation. Remember, you've agreed that eternal life is irrevocable. That being so, one CANNOT lose eternal life.

GOD is for knowing so he sees everything that has been so this makes our free will a bit confusing but never the less it is a choice we all have to come to GOD, to stay with GOD.

I don't think our free will is confusing at all. What has been totally misunderstood, though, is that though we freely believe in Christ for salvation, there isn't anything we can to do rid ourselves of salvation. Why? First, because the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, which you've agreed with. Second, because it is God who holds us in His hand. He has promised not to let us go.

even a 3rd of the angels fell from heaven why would we be any different.

This is apples to oranges, and irrelevant.

free will isn't in a man that chooses against Christ, your incapable to do anything but go to hell, so you have no free will.

I don't believe any of this because I don't find any of this in Scripture.

What I do find in Scripture is that God freely gives the gift of eternal life to those who believe, WHEN they believe. And that gift is irrevocable, as you've agreed with.

but once you become a follower of Christ your free will is available to refrain from or obtain from erring.
that's the theology version of that twisted idea but its clear man has free will to choose either way.

No one has the freedom to release their free gift, once given. NO verse teaches that wrong opinion.

Christ died rose again and ascended to heaven to DRAW all men.

Right. An act of love towards all. The best kind of "draw".

if thats true then why aren't all men going to heaven>??

Because they refuse the gift, or aren't interested in it, or don't believe it exists, etc.

we have a choice to follow christ or not and to fall away from the faith or err even be cut off GOD forbid

The error in this is that even though a believer can fall away from their faith (cease to believe), that does NOT mean loss of salvation.

If you really believe Rom 11:29 that says that God's gifts are irrevocable, then it is totally contradictory to also believe that one can lose their salvation.

Those 2 views cannot co-exist in one brain.

 

[lori milne]

I think my point was missed. You said: "My church stays none denominational to the core and scripturally will present both sides."

The point is: Scripture doesn't present "both sides". Scripture presents the Truth. If one wants "sides", then there is the side of truth, and the other side is false.

The point you made was clear just you missed my point lol

 

[lori milne]

I said this:
"Eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable. Why don't you believe that?"

Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If eternal life is irrevocable, then that IS God's promise. There is no "versus" here. And our obligation to God is NOT related to our salvation.


Of course we do. But NOT to maintain or hold on to our salvation.


The warnings are NOT meaningless. I'm beginning to think that those who believe in conditional security were never punished properly as children, so don't have any reference for what that means.

Let's have a peek at the kind of discipline God had in store for King David:
Psa 32:3-5
3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat ofsummer. 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.


Psa 38:1-11
I think v.1 is quite instructive:
"O LORD, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath. O LORD, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath."

but read the rest through v.11 to see what divine discipline is all about.

Gods gifts are just that gifts this is not referring to eternal salvation.
The gift of toungs the gift of prophacy etc

 

[EmSw]

If you really believe Rom 11:29 that says that God's gifts are irrevocable, then it is totally contradictory to also believe that one can lose their salvation.

Those 2 views cannot co-exist in one brain.

So you are equating eternal life with salvation. I've already showed you eternal life is inherited. And everyone knows, an inheritance is future.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gods gifts are just that gifts this is not referring to eternal salvation.
The gift of toungs the gift of prophacy etc

Where does this view come from? Certainly NOT from the context of Romans. Paul was very specific about defining what he meant by "gifts". We do not have the authority or right to define the word. We MUST take what Paul described as gifts in Romans in order to understand Rom 11:29.

So, once again:
1:11 speaks of spiritual gifts.
3:24, 5:15,16,17 identifies justification.
6:23 identifies eternal life as a gift of God.

The very next mention of "gifts" is 11:29 where Paul says they are irrevocable.

From your response, it appears that neither justification nor eternal life are about eternal salvation. Why is that? Of course they are. Paul defined both of them as gifts before he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You've still not supported your view or refuted mine from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are equating eternal life with salvation. I've already showed you eternal life is inherited. And everyone knows, an inheritance is future.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Well, this view contradicts the very words of Jesus in John 5:24, where He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That is the present tense, not future, which would be your view. And I have already explained what it means to "inherit eternal life", which anyone is free to disagree with. In fact, Matt 19:29 is about rewards in heaven, not getting into heaven. This verse speaks of enduring, the same point Paul made to Timothy in 2 Tim 2:12.

But I have PROVEN that one receives eternal life WHEN one believes because Jesus SAID SO. I guess your argument is with Him.

 

[seekingsolace]

So you are equating eternal life with salvation. I've already showed you eternal life is inherited. And everyone knows, an inheritance is future.

What is the promise of an inheritance?

 

[EmSw]

What is the promise of an inheritance?

Promise is also future. : )

 

[seekingsolace]

Promise is also future. : )

What was the promise?

 

[lori milne]

Where does this view come from? Certainly NOT from the context of Romans. Paul was very specific about defining what he meant by "gifts". We do not have the authority or right to define the word. We MUST take what Paul described as gifts in Romans in order to understand Rom 11:29.


"this view comes from the word of GOD when it ever speaks of Gifts given to use by GOD
they are irrevocable and we learn this in many passages and stories you can misuse your gift or abuse or not use it all but either way they are irrevocable."

So, once again:
1:11 speaks of spiritual gifts.
3:24, 5:15,16,17 identifies justification.
6:23 identifies eternal life as a gift of God.

The very next mention of "gifts" is 11:29 where Paul says they are irrevocable.

From your response, it appears that neither justification nor eternal life are about eternal salvation. Why is that? Of course they are. Paul defined both of them as gifts before he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You've still not supported your view or refuted mine from Scripture.

what are you referring to on this statement? please show


those examples you gave are not in the same chapter ? if like you said Paul was very specific what did he mean in chapter 12:6-8 who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another. 6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so!

to say they are out of context is silly if you consider Pauls reference clearly to spiritual gifts being used in Romans 12.
after reading that then maybe you'll see that was very much in context of what Paul meant when he said spiritual gifts. also many many many other verses. i wont put them all,
1 peter 4:10
Romans 12:1-2 & 3-8

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. 8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.

2 peter 1:21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.

 

[lori milne]

What was the promise?

Titus 1-2
faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Hebrew 9 11-15 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Ephesians 3:6
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

it is future promise of what is to come for those who are in the Faith!

 

[seekingsolace]

it is future promise of what is to come for those who are in the Faith!

So you could say it's ensured, since God declared it.

 

[lori milne]

Of course we do. But NOT to maintain or hold on to our salvation.

yes to avoid the consequence!! the bible clearly speaks of it as a result of sin!
the wages of sin is death! your not exempt to ANYTHING in the Bible No matter how twisted the pastor was who teach such rubbish!
hear out of PAUL'S own Lips since that basically ware this confusion lies.
Romans seems to get a lot of Misinterpretation so wee will use it as an example to explain better what he means in chapter 7 & 8 when he speaks of sinning and not wanting! and what is justified and what isn't!

Romans 7:1,7,21,22,23 lets examine these versus FIRST before we go into verses *,10,11 & 15-19

1. Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
7. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

OK clearly he is teaching on how to OBEY the Law (can we agree on that?)

ok now we see clearly in the middle of this explanation of the LAW he adds a what happens to a man when he is trying to obey the LAW versus what we will see in chapter 8.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

so he continues to explain now TRYING to obey the LAW and taking your focus off of just loving GOD you will stumble into sin!
NOW

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
SO is paul saying we are sinners so be it!?? NO he is explaining what happens when we add the LAW!
is he saying the LAW is bad? NO
remember verse
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


SO to prove my POINT once and for all if you actually read all this? :/
Go to chapter 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
CONDEMNATION IS A BIG WORD HERE!!
and its conditional!! CLEARLY you cant drop anything after that comma!!
KEEP reading

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

NOW
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


clearly you cant sin if your in the spirit or be righteous if your in the flesh!

so back to my POINT how can a good tree bear bad fruit? IT CANT

 

[FreeGrace2]

I posted this:
"So, once again:
1:11 speaks of spiritual gifts.
3:24, 5:15,16,17 identifies justification.
6:23 identifies eternal life as a gift of God.

The very next mention of "gifts" is 11:29 where Paul says they are irrevocable."

what are you referring to on this statement? please show

Not sure what is meant by "this statement". I gave a whole post. What is there about what I've again posted that isn't clear concerning CONTEXT? Please advise.

those examples you gave are not in the same chapter ? if like you said Paul was very specific what did he mean in chapter 12:6-8 who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another.

As most people understand what CONTEXT means, when Paul wrote 11:29, his readership ALREADY understood what he meant by "gifts", given what he already SAID about them. Which I've graciously re-posted here again. We don't needd to look ahead to understand what he meant. We already KNOW what he meant by "gift". He defined it. And he defined it BEFORE he penned 11:29. So, whatever he meant by it was ALREADY defined for us. So we don't have to keep reading, wondering what he means by "gift". That's not how people write or speak. If he didn't mean the things he had already defined by the time he got to 11:29, he WOULD HAVE clearly defined what he meant there. So, because there isn't any definition in that immediate CONTEXT, we KNOW that he meant spiritual gifts, justification, and eternal life.

The very FACT that there is strong resistance to eternal life being referred to in 11:29 by those on your side demonstrates a closed mind regarding the subject. iow, your minds have already been made up, so don't confuse with FACTS. That's not how to understand God's Word.

6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so!

Why would we suppose that Paul was referring AHEAD to these gifts? There is no reason.

to say they are out of context is silly if you consider Pauls reference clearly to spiritual gifts being used in Romans 12.

CONTEXT comes from what HAS BEEN written already. Never about what will be coming later on in the text.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all. 8 For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another performance of miracles, to another prophecy, and to another discernment of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.11 It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.

2 peter 1:21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.

None of this has any CONTEXT to Rom 11:29, because the readers of his letter to the Romans was written BEFORE 1 Corinthians. Sorry to have to point out this glaring error on your part.

The unwillingness to simply accept the clear and obvious truth that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable is astounding to observe!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

yes to avoid the consequence!! the bible clearly speaks of it as a result of sin!

Wrong. What did Christ die for? Sin. All sin. For everyone. Sin is no longer the issue. So, what is the issue?

Does one possess eternal life? That's the issue. Rev 20:15 says so. If one's name isn't in the Book of Life (meaning having eternal life), they are cast into the lake of fire.

And I've PROVEN that eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable. So your view cannot be correct. It is that simple.

Unless one can show from Scripture that one who has received eternal life can lose it, your side does not have any support. And there is no reason to believe it.

 

[lori milne]

You've still not supported your view or refuted mine from Scripture.

i didnt know what you were speaking of here?

 

[lori milne]

6:23 identifies eternal life as a gift of God.

this is not a spiritual gift correct Eternal life would be infact the gift BUT it doesnt say it is guaranteed in this verse? sorry
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.