Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[StanJ]

Because
If choice is given that can go two ways. I think He wants us to voluntarily choose Him

Sorry I'm not understanding what you're trying to convey, I mean I agree with it but I'm just not understanding how it applies to what I said.

 

[StanJ]

I like the 'everyone' in the last sentence.

John 3:16-21 says pretty much the same thing.

 

[GillDouglas]

He allows us to choose our path. Without choice there is no love.


Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

If I gave you a car no strings attached, would you accept it?
If I told you were going to die and then I gave you the only way to prevent your death, would you choose it?
What about those who don't get the opportunity to choose (the unborn, for example)?

 

[GillDouglas]

So the following represents Calvinism?

Roman 10:8-13
“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Does everyone call on the name of the Lord? Or is it everyone who believes that calls on Him?

 

[StanJ]

Does everyone call on the name of the Lord? Or is it everyone who believes that calls on Him?

I'm afraid you can't dissect this to fit your doctrine, it says what it says.

 

[StanJ]

If I gave you a car no strings attached, would you accept it?
If I told you were going to die and then I gave you the only way to prevent your death, would you choose it?
What about those who don't get the opportunity to choose (the unborn, for example)?

So are you advocating that God does give us a choice to accept or reject?
Your third analysis is just simply a bad one.

 

[GillDouglas]

I'm afraid you can't dissect this to fit your doctrine, it says what it says.

Good job avoiding the question, but you're mistaken. I'll answer it for you. Only those who believe will call upon His name. Do all believe? Nope.

 

[StanJ]

Good job avoiding the question, but you're mistaken. I'll answer it for you. Only those who believe will call upon His name. Do all believe? Nope.

I wasn't avoiding anything, I was telling you that you can't eisegete one point of your doctrine of Sovereign Election into this passage of scripture.
If you're serious about getting legitimate answers to your questions then you should respond with legitimate answers before asking more questions. The law of sowing and reaping works on these threads as well.

 

[GillDouglas]

So are you advocating that God does give us a choice to accept or reject?

No. I'm advocating that God makes an offer no one can refuse.

Your third analysis is just simply a bad one.

Is that so? How insightful. Well it just so happens that salvation is a gift of God, not something that anyone obtains by human means. Though all are born in sin, it is God that gives this gift. So a child who dies before it is born is able to enter Heaven by the grace and mercy of God. This also applies to those who are outside of the influence of evangelical Christians. With God, all things are possible.

 

[GillDouglas]

I wasn't avoiding anything, I was telling you that you can't eisegete one point of your doctrine of Sovereign Election into this passage of scripture.
If you're serious about getting legitimate answers to your questions then you should respond with legitimate answers before asking more questions. The law of sowing and reaping works on these threads as well.

Well since apparently I am not serious and cannot offer legitimate answers in your opinion, I have nothing more to discuss with you.

 

[StanJ]

No. I'm advocating that God makes an offer no one can refuse.

So wherein does this advocacy ly.... scripture please?

Is that so? How insightful. Well it just so happens that salvation is a gift of God, not something that anyone obtains by human means. Though all are born in sin, it is God that gives this gift. So a child who dies before it is born is able to enter Heaven by the grace and mercy of God. This also applies to those who are outside of the influence of evangelical Christians. With God, all things are possible.

I don't disagree but I was speaking about your third analogy not about salvation being a gift. How exactly was that third analogy relevant?
A child who dIes in vitro is never subject to God's laws. Only those that are born physically and spiritually are subject to those laws.
We have missionaries for that very reason. Plus you seem to forget what Paul says in Romans 1 about God being evident in his own creation.

 

[StanJ]

Well since apparently I am not serious and cannot offer legitimate answers in your opinion, I have nothing more to discuss with you.

So does 'being all you can be' only apply to your vocation with the U.S. Army? You seem to cop out very easily in these discussions?

 

[keltoi]

God knows everything as far as you and I are concerned, but in the Spiritual realm there may be things that are not knowable, so even God does not know these things, but that would not keep us from describing God from our perspective as knowing everything.

God created all things, that includes the spiritual realm.

 

[keltoi]

Does everyone call on the name of the Lord? Or is it everyone who believes that calls on Him?

I got in trouble years ago for this but I will say it again. Even Satan believes.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I got in trouble years ago for this but I will say it again. Even Satan believes.

Actually, not only does Satan believe, he knows. He stood in front of God asking permission to tempt Job.

 

[Jan001]

Perhaps you can tell us which sins Christ didn't die for? Please be specific.

If a Christian commits murder, adultery, or fornication and he does not repent before he dies, will he still be approved to inherit eternal life?

 

[Jan001]

The churches they were written to and again if you claim has any credence which of the many churches mentioned in the New Covenant was the catholic church?

There was one universal catholic faith, but many individual local churches all teaching this same exact faith. This one church came to be called the Catholic Church and it still is.

All these writings written to the individual local churches were preserved by the Catholic Church.

 

[Jan001]

Pehaps you can tell us once again where Moses got those laws? Oh wait........

I am finished with that subject.

Perhaps you can explain to me why you still believe that Jesus and His Father are the same Person?

Matthew 20:23
He [Jesus] said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” rsv

Ephesians 1:17-21
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; rsv​

Revelation 3:21
He who conquers, I [Jesus] will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

I don't know how many people the catholic and protestant churches murdered but I'm sure it's quite a few eh? Why do you ask it's your history. So how many Baptists do you think the catholic church murdered knowing we never shared in catholic and protestant churches evil doings during the dark ages the catholic church is responsible for? BTW you do know one of your popes apologized for those atrocity's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

History revisionism which blames Catholicism for all the world's problems is not relevant for me.

Like I said before, it is not prudent to judge 1st century people by 21st century morals. Today, my own country sanctions the murder of unborn children.

You do know that Saul (later Paul), a Jew, persecuted Christians? In his day, persecution of Christians is what faithful Jews did and they did this because they believed it was God's will for them to do in order to deter other Jews from converting to the heresy of Christianity.

 

[Jan001]

Wow so Christ is fickle, I never knew that he would save someone put their name in the Book of Life and hen remove it. You would think that because God knows everything he wouldn't have wasted time by putting someone's name in the Book of life who he was later going to "unsave".

You do know that what you are posting is extremely unbiblical, don't you?

Revelation 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. rsv
​

A person can become saved, fall away, and then repent and become saved again. He can do this cycle until he dies. However, it is his state at the time of his death, saved or unsaved, which determines his final destination: eternal life or second death in hell.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv​

I believe Jesus when He states that some people believe for a while and then they fall away. When a person falls away, he is no longer saved.

I think the Book of Life is a living book and that peoples' names can be written in and blotted out. Only God knows whose names will be in the Book of Life at the end of time and it is only these people who will be approved to inherit eternal life.