Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Patmos]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

 

[Albion]

I think that if it is the case that God determines all things--or even just determines whether each of us will be saved or not--it's got to be "what it is" at worst, and a relief at best. It's a far more consistent POV than the free will advocates have to offer, and a comforting one as a result.

 

[98cwitr]

I agree with the OP, but at least in my understanding of the word "coercive" in context just means that God forces His Will to be done. I personally dont see this as how it works. We will only do what it is in our nature to do. If God gives us a new heart and His Spirit to guide us, there is no coercion required, because the person will naturally do those [and different from their old nature] things.

Analogy:

You're walking along a path and you round a corner to find a big boulder in your way, so you walk around it because it's not in your nature to just stop or turn around and go back. Unknown to you, I just put the boulder there. Did I "coerce" you to walk around it? To the point, since it was my will for you to walk around the boulder and with full knowledge that you would do so if I placed it there, was my will done?

 

[Patmos]

I think that if it is the case that God determines all things--or even just determines whether each of us will be saved or not--it's got to be "what it is" at worst, and a relief at best.

Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.

Not relief for the answered prayer for a loved one, leading to despair and doubt.

I could go on...

It's a far more consistent POV than the free will advocates have to offer.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Thursday]

I think that if it is the case that God determines all things--or even just determines whether each of us will be saved or not--it's got to be "what it is" at worst, and a relief at best. It's a far more consistent POV than the free will advocates have to offer, and a comforting one as a result.

How can it be comforting to know that God predestines men to hell and there is nothing they can do about it?

 

[Albion]

Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.

In a way, it is.

 

[Albion]

How can it be comforting to know that God predestines men to hell and there is nothing they can do about it?

It means that it's in the hands of he who is going to have the last word anyway. That could be better than spending a lifetime worrying and wondering, trying and trying and falling short.

 

[Thursday]

It means that it's in the hands of he who is going to have the last word anyway. That could be better than spending a lifetime worrying and wondering, trying and trying and falling short.

Why wouldn't you wonder?

More importantly, what if you are wrong? This ideology could be sending many people to Hell through despair or presumption.

 

[Albion]

Why wouldn't you wonder?

Not knowing how much any individual might worry, I'll say much less wondering or much less reason to wonder.

More importantly, what if you are wrong?

If you are wrong, nothing you could have done would have changed anything anyway.

 

[Thursday]

Not knowing how much any individual might worry, I'll say much less wondering or much less reason to wonder.


If you are wrong, nothing you could have done would have changed anything anyway.

Not true. If you are wrong it means that your actions while on earth impact your eternal destiny. What if you are holding to a dangerous doctrine of pride and presumption that contradicts God's will?

 

[Albion]

Not true. If you are wrong it means that your actions while on earth impact your eternal destiny. What if you are holding to a dangerous doctrine of pride and presumption that contradicts God's will?

You can spend a lifetime wondering if you've earned God's favor and, if you have, if you'll fumble it away at the last moment. That's inherent in the Free Will doctrine, if you truly follow it.

If, however, you believe that God has determined your future, I would think--for most people--that this would cause them NOT to go through life aware that every action or inaction could determine the outcome and that their destiny could change at any time up to the moment of death. But of course we know that some people are more prone to worry than others, no matter what the issue is.

 

[Thursday]

You can spend a lifetime wondering if you've earned God's favor and, if you have, if you'll fumble it away at the last moment. That's inherent in the Free Will doctrine, if you truly follow it.

If, however, you believe that God has determined your future, I would think--for most people--that this would cause them NOT to go through life aware that every action or inaction could determine the outcome and that their destiny could change at any time up to the moment of death. But of course we know that some people are more prone to worry than others, no matter what the issue is.

If you believe that God has predetermined your eternal destiny without any consideration of your actions on earth, then you would be more likely to disregard the commandments of God.

 

[Optimax]

Predestination.

Those who receive Jesus and are born again/from above are predestined to be with God Forever (and much, much more).

Those who die, never having accepted Jesus are predestined to be with the devil forever in Hell.

Choose you own destiny.

 

[Albion]

If you believe that God has predetermined your eternal destiny without any consideration of your actions on earth, then you would be more likely to disregard the commandments of God.

No. That would be to prove that you either had no moral compass or were willing to verify that you were not among the Elect.

However, I recognize that the perspective you're describing there is the way people who believe that they can earn their way to heaven might look at the matter. It suggests that the only reason to do right is if "there's something in it for you."

 

[Albion]

Predestination.
Those who receive Jesus and are born again/from above are predestined to be with God Forever (and much, much more).
Those who die, never having accepted Jesus are predestined to be with the devil forever in Hell.
Choose you own destiny.

This ^ amounts to using the word predestination as the definition of "not predestined."

 

[Thursday]

No. That would be to prove that you either had no moral compass or were willing to verify that you were not among the Elect.

However, I recognize that the perspective you're describing there is the way people who believe that they can earn their way to heaven might look at the matter. It suggests that the only reason to do right is if "there's something in it for you."

Clearly there is something in it for me.

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.



Matt 25
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Albion]

Clearly there is something in it for me.

Of course there's something in it for you. That wasn't the point, however.

What I said was that it would take a believer in the idea of us being the masters of our own fate to think that if God has already chosen his Elect and would stand behind them...that this would induce everyone who doesn't know if he is among the Elect or not (which is all of us) to say, "Then I'll just do evil!"

 

[Erose]

Threads like this make me happy to be Catholic. In all honesty I don't see how the Calvinist point of view doesn't lead one to nihilism. Heck if you are already predestined one way or the other, and there isn't nothing you can do about it, then why even worry about doing anything Christ-like? Live your life as you see fit, and let everything wash itself out in the end.

 

[Albion]

Threads like this make me happy to be Catholic. In all honesty I don't see how the Calvinist point of view doesn't lead one to nihilism..

Except that it doesn't.

And, in fact, mountains of material have been written accusing Calvinism of leading to the exact opposite end.

 

[Erose]

Except that it doesn't.

And, in fact, mountains of material have been written accusing Calvinism of leading to the exact opposite end.

Ok, how does it not?

If you told me that I am destined to heaven, no matter what I do, then why work at it? If you tell me I am destined to hell, no matter what I do, then why should I care about what my actions do?

Its like if you told someone that no matter what they do they are going to get $2000 a week to live on. They can work for a living to better society or they could set on their bums and watch tv all day, go on vacations, whatever. What path do you think the majority of people will take? I bet you that most of them would go the later route over the former.

So if you tell someone that they are destined for heaven, and there is nothing they can do about it; they could either go to church, read Scripture, do charity work, pray daily, work on their relationship with Jesus, etc., etc., etc.; or live a life of selfishness, greed, etc., etc., etc. What path do you think that most will follow? I bet most of them with go the later route here as well. Heck we already know for a fact that most go that later route anyway, as Jesus Himself spoke of the two roads.

In all honesty that is a depressing worldview IMO. Not knowing one way or another if you are one of the destined or one of the fallen, that would not make me live in comfort.