Pre-trib rapture, why no mention of all the deaths that will occur that day?

[Time Watcher]

Hang in there jack and you may get it some day

But do not wait to long .... He has said you must be ready [Matthew 25:13]

If you make it to the tribulation you will know that something is up for sure .... not that you should go there

But He said you cannot know the time of His visitation

So you must reconcile His post tribulation appearing with His sudden intervention as a "theif"

A time that you can know against a time that you can not anticipate .... get it?

Two different times .... yes?

Get your oil Jack .... you do not want to be out, and then looking for some in the tribulation

There are two sides to the door ......

 

[shturt678]

Hang in there jack and you may get it some day

But do not wait to long .... He has said you must be ready [Matthew 25:13]

If you make it to the tribulation you will know that something is up for sure .... not that you should go there

But He said you cannot know the time of His visitation

So you must reconcile His post tribulation appearing with His sudden intervention as a "theif"

A time that you can know against a time that you can not anticipate .... get it?

Two different times .... yes?

Get your oil Jack .... you do not want to be out, and then looking for some in the tribulation

There are two sides to the door ......

God made a mistake forming me, ie, weak mind, and strong back, ie, 'slow on the uptake.' Regarding Matt.25:13, I'll croak before the "1" Parousia and things don't look good for me regarding having sense, ie, oil - my grandma kept telling me as a child, "Boy, you have rocks in your head,", ie, still need to get rid of a few more rocks and then on my Way. Remember I'm a "now tribulationist," ie, began at 70 A.D. and ends with the "1" Parousia.

Thank you for caring

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Time Watcher]

Oil Jack .... rocks won't work

Get it now .... do not wait or neglect

 

[n2thelight]

Just curious,do you all really understand what the trib is all about,and trust,it's not about death and destruction?

 

[Time Watcher]

Just curious,do you all really understand what the trib is all about,and trust,it's not about death and destruction?


Who do you ask?

If me .... I would never trust anyone who tells what you do about the Lord's coming judgment

And yes I really do understand what you call "the trib"

You should get the label right .... I do not find "the trib" in scripture

Those who have fallen to the habit of using the Lord's definitions loosely generally do not have any idea what they are talking about and are too lazy for serious Bible study

"pre-tribber " .... "postises" ..... stuff like this .... all the talk of superficial floaters

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post 2:

the reason it is not mentioned is because pre trib is a fantasy

That's right.

And the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is even dangerous. For when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

-

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow there's going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on that hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day, at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. After the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 10:

And those of the professing "church" not saved will be rejected outright by the Lord [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-22]

Regarding Matthew 25:1-13, it shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 14:

But would this not contradict 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they're going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

-

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 21:

But He said you cannot know the time of His visitation

Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

-

Coming to know, at a certain point in our future, the date of Jesus' 2nd coming, will help believers to hang in there during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers you're thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off and you're just left there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you're going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner. And you walk over and see a small note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure to the end (Matthew 24:13).

Time Watcher said in post 21:

So you must reconcile His post tribulation appearing with His sudden intervention as a "theif"

The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view sometimes asserts that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what's called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come the 2nd time upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

-

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[Time Watcher]

What a gas B2


"The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view sometimes asserts that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what's called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6)"


Your are one who continuously tells that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says [that the Lord does not mean what He says], and your "maybe, if, might be, could be" circling is your bridging

I see your deceptive slants interwoven in you postings ... I look at the left hand while the right is distracting

And I have to warn you about who you sound like [Genesis 3:2-5]

Watch out .... his bite is lethal

 

[bibletruth469]

With all the debates of a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post- tribulation rapture theory, one question has always been in my head and I have yet to hear Jack Vam Impe, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, or any other rapture theory address this.

As far as the end times goes, the bible is very detailed how all people will die when the different seals and plagues are unleashed. If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, why doesn't the bible describe the massive death toll of the people that will die that day, when out the blue, people driving cars at full speed disappear, pilots in planes disappear, train conductors disappear. Those situations alone of driverless cars , planes and trains crashing, alone will cause countless deaths, yet there is no mention about the many that will perish on that day if there is a pre-trib rapture, but the bible goes into detail about all the deaths during the tribulation.

Is something missing in scriptures, or is there really going to be a pre-trib rapture?

I personally believe that there are so many people who do not realize that they are not saved but are lost. I also believe that a person must first realize that they are lost in their sins and need the hope of Christ before they can become saved. This is a very sad fact that people are deceived, When the rapture occurs, there won't be as many people taken up as people think. This is a deception.

 

[shturt678]

What a gas B2


"The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view sometimes asserts that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what's called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6)"

Just have to look in the physical churches today and know IIThess.2:4 is in its last 'hour.' Ie, "immediately after the present tribulation of Revelation chapters 8 & 9 fulfilled, ie, any moment now, then Satan personally loosed, then the "1" Parousia.

[QUOTE/Your are one who continuously tells that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says [that the Lord does not mean what He says], and your "maybe, if, might be, could be" circling is your bridging

I see your deceptive slants interwoven in you postings ... I look at the left hand while the right is distracting

And I have to warn you about who you sound like [Genesis 3:2-5]

Watch out .... his bite is lethal[/QUOTE]

Relax, ie, Just ol' old Jack's opinion, ie, my bite isn't - I lost my teeth long ago.

 

[ebedmelech]

I personally believe that there are so many people who do not realize that they are not saved but are lost. I also believe that a person must first realize that they are lost in their sins and need the hope of Christ before they can become saved. This is a very sad fact that people are deceived, When the rapture occurs, there won't be as many people taken up as people think. This is a deception.

The true decption is the idea of a pretrib rapture...and the fact that every verse that's used to prove it...is saying the exact opposite. They are speaking of resurrection...not "futurist escapism". WHat make you think if every one of the apostles except John were martyred...that you deserve a "great escape"?

We're here to do the Lords work...and in doing so we will be persecuted. As this country turns more against Christ and Christians...we'll know who was in it for real.

As to a pretrib rapture...we'll see...

 

[Another Lazarus]

I need to tell u that if u r a pilot n u are about to b raptured by God,
you will not steer the plane or any cars, God is not that careless.

 

[SAAN]

I need to tell u that if u r a pilot n u are about to b raptured by God,
you will not steer the plane or any cars, God is not that careless.

God allows people to die in accidents everyday. If a plane crashes anywhere other than the runway, normally people in whatever town it crashes dies as well. So if a train conductor is coming full speed to a curve and disappears, who ever lives in the path of that train will die as well too...the same goes for a pilot less plane.

So all this death causes by a rapture is not documented anywhere in the bible or Johns vision, yet all the death during the tribulation is foretold.

 

[Another Lazarus]

God allows people to die in accidents everyday. If a plane crashes anywhere other than the runway, normally people in whatever town it crashes dies as well. So if a train conductor is coming full speed to a curve and disappears, who ever lives in the path of that train will die as well too...the same goes for a pilot less plane.

So all this death causes by a rapture is not documented anywhere in the bible or Johns vision, yet all the death during the tribulation is foretold.

thats only true if u r the God.

 

[n2thelight]

The true decption is the idea of a pretrib rapture...and the fact that every verse that's used to prove it...is saying the exact opposite. They are speaking of resurrection...not "futurist escapism". WHat make you think if every one of the apostles except John were martyred...that you deserve a "great escape"?

We're here to do the Lords work...and in doing so we will be persecuted. As this country turns more against Christ and Christians...we'll know who was in it for real.

As to a pretrib rapture...we'll see...

Amen,scripture states that we overcome,not escape,and how do we overcome...

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

This one verse alone should dispell any myth of a rapture

 

[Time Watcher]

"Amen,scripture states that we overcome,not escape,and how do we overcome"

You say no

But the Lord says yes .... He has no intent to judge His ecclesia with His hour of trial and judgment that will come upon a whole world of unbelievers .... this judgment is for a vary different purpose than the trials and tribulations of the believer in this present age of His grace [many believers who have come and gone will never been here on the earth to engage in what you say you must do

What makes you so special?

His purpose will be to take revenge and to punish a world filled with unbelief

Is this something that you need?

His ecclesia are not scheduled to receive this coming tribulation of unprecedented proportions .... and why would they be?

However, there will be those who will turn to Him during the period who were not true believers before, and these will be necessarily subjected to the wiles of His wrath at the time

There are those today who have persecution complexes for various reasons and feel the need to be judged ... this generally follows with the teachings of legalism dogmas designed to control the memberships of a number of professing Christian organizations

If that is where you stand, you need to get away from those who have captured you .... the believer in Jesus Christ has already been judged and acquitted by His grace

And if you are being told that you must constantly be subjected to a whipping, saved, then unsaved, whipped, and saved again, over and over ........ you have a problem

Deal with this before it is too late for you

Those who seek His wrath will most likely get it and this behavior may very well be indicative of an unsaved condition

 

[n2thelight]

@ Time Watcher

Are you afraid of God's wrath?Or let me put it this way,do you even know what His wrath is?

One more thing,the hour of trial,is satan pretending to be Christ,and I just showed you how we overcome that

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

There it is for you again......

In Mark 13:11; tells us that we will be delivered up in those days. "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit."


The Holy Spirit will speak through you in that tongue that was spoken on Pentecost Day, where every person of every language heard and understood in their native language and dialect, without the use of an interpreter. It will not be you that speaks then, but the Holy Spirit of God.

This is why you will be hated, it is for that message that will talking against the Antichrist, whom they believe to be the true Christ. Satan came with the powers and wonders of miracles, and they simply do not know the difference between the two Christ's nor the two events. They believe this lie about the image of Satan coming to destroy mankind and the world, and this sets up flesh man to accept Satan as the true Christ.

Satan comes with his policy of peace and prosperity, of caring for the environment, and animal rights, he cares for you, because he is placing your soul under his care. Daniel 8 makes it very clear that the Antichrist will come to earth peacefully, and he wants you successful.



When Christ returns we are all changed,ALL,not just some of the people in this so called rapture...


We are not to fear death,only Him who can destroy both body and soul.........

 

[Ludicrus]

There is nothing in scripture which directly relates the Lord's pre-tribuation "harpazp" action to call His ecclesia with any deaths that will occur as a result of it

.... but there most likely will be in certain cases

But only those who will enter the tribulation anyway .... any of these will not be made immortal because they will be none of His

I beg to differ. I'm not going to debate it or argue it. You either believe God's Word or not.

Daniel 11:32-45 AMP
32 And such as violate the covenant he shall pervert and seduce with flatteries, but the people who know their God shall prove themselves strong and shall stand firm and do exploits [for God].
33 And they who are wise and understanding among the people shall instruct many and make them understand, though some [of them and their followers] shall fall by the sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for many days.
34 Now when they fall, they shall receive a little help. Many shall join themselves to them with flatteries and hypocrisies.
35 And some of those who are wise, prudent, and understanding shall be weakened and fall, [thus, then, the insincere among the people will lose courage and become deserters. It will be a test] to refine, to purify, and to make those among [God's people] white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for the time [God] appointed.
36 And the M king shall do according to his will; he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished, for that which is determined [by God] shall be done.
37 He shall not regard the gods of his fathers or Him [to Whom] women desire [to give birth--the Messiah] or any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in their place he shall honor the god of fortresses; a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold and silver, with precious stones, and with pleasant and expensive things.
39 And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with glory and honor, and he shall cause them to rule over many and shall divide the land for a price.
40 And at the time of the end the king of the South shall push at and attack him, and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries and shall overflow and pass through.
41 He shall enter into the Glorious Land [Palestine] and many shall be overthrown, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom, Moab, and the main [core] of the people of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch out his hand also against the [other] countries, but the land of Egypt shall not be among the escaped ones.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver and over all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall accompany him [compelled to follow his steps].
44 But rumors from the east and from the north shall alarm and hasten him. And he shall go forth with great fury to destroy and utterly to sweep away many.
45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the seas and the glorious holy Mount [Zion]; yet he shall come to his end with none to help him. [II Thess. 2:4; Rev. 13:5-8.]


Now, I know what you are going to say. This is Antiochus Epiphanes, but starting at verse 36, it doesn't apply to him.

My Bible's footnote states: M The antichrist is in view from this point in the prophecy to the end of the chapter. The details listed here do not fit what is known of Antiochus Epiphanes. See II Thess. 2:4; Rev. 13:5-8

And it continues in the very next chapter to speak of the Resurrection:

Daniel 12:1-4 AMP
1 AND AT that time [of the end] Michael shall arise, the great [angelic] prince who defends and has charge of your [Daniel's] people. And there shall be a time of trouble, straitness, and distress such as never was since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the Book [of God's plan for His own].
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake: some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt and abhorrence. [John 5:29.]
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever. [Matt. 13:43.]
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great. [Amos 8:12.]

So, if you continue from the one passage to the next, you've got a complete picture of the End Times in a nutshell.

The tribulation is not for those that rejected Christ, it is for those to be purified by fiery ordeals and trials and to be made white.

Daniel 11:35 AMP
35 And some of those who are wise, prudent, and understanding shall be weakened and fall, [thus, then, the insincere among the people will lose courage and become deserters. It will be a test] to refine, to purify, and to make those among [God's people] white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for the time [God] appointed.

Jesus even asked,

Luke 18:7-8 AMP
7 And will not [our just] God defend and protect and avenge His elect (His chosen ones), who cry to Him day and night? Will He defer them and delay help on their behalf?
8 I tell you, He will defend and protect and avenge them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find [persistence in] faith on the earth?

Times are going to be really bad, if Jesus has to ask this.

 

[Ludicrus]

@ Time Watcher

Are you afraid of God's wrath?Or let me put it this way,do you even know what His wrath is?

One more thing,the hour of trial,is satan pretending to be Christ,and I just showed you how we overcome that

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

There it is for you again......

In Mark 13:11; tells us that we will be delivered up in those days. "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit."


The Holy Spirit will speak through you in that tongue that was spoken on Pentecost Day, where every person of every language heard and understood in their native language and dialect, without the use of an interpreter. It will not be you that speaks then, but the Holy Spirit of God.

This is why you will be hated, it is for that message that will talking against the Antichrist, whom they believe to be the true Christ. Satan came with the powers and wonders of miracles, and they simply do not know the difference between the two Christ's nor the two events. They believe this lie about the image of Satan coming to destroy mankind and the world, and this sets up flesh man to accept Satan as the true Christ.

Satan comes with his policy of peace and prosperity, of caring for the environment, and animal rights, he cares for you, because he is placing your soul under his care. Daniel 8 makes it very clear that the Antichrist will come to earth peacefully, and he wants you successful.



When Christ returns we are all changed,ALL,not just some of the people in this so called rapture...


We are not to fear death,only Him who can destroy both body and soul.........

Amen!!!