Pre trib rapture invented after 1800?

[n2thelight]

Does Bullinger teach you n2?

I know that Arnold Murray touts Bullinger

And you are correct there is no agreement between us on the subject of Israel .... impossible .... oil and water do not mix [Matthew 25:1-13] ... listen to the Lord on this matter

And your "basket" case is all conjecture taken out of context

There are 7 million + in Israel today with representation of all tribes present

Your idea is bogus and you cannot prove what you say .... and the prophet Isaiah refutes you [Isaiah 11:11]

Boy do you have alot to learn,let me help you out....Zoom back with me to Jeremiah chapter 3

Jeremiah 3:14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"​

Jeremiah 3:17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."​

Because they will call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord, not the ark of the Covenant. On the first day of the Millennium, every knee will bow to Jesus. All the nations of the earth will know who the true Christ is, and the throne of the Lord will be on earth in Jerusalem. This will happen exactly as it is written in His Word.​

As the people of the earth will see the power of the true Jesus Christ when He returns to earth, and through the restoration. Christ will reclaim all of His children from the false messiah and who many will have followed, and fallen away with, and worshipped during the great tribulation [deception]. So God is telling us that we will no longer need anything to symbolize His throne, for His throne will be on earth with you at that time of the Millennium Age.​

Jeremiah 3:18 "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers."​

In other words, Israel, those ten tribes will come back out of the north country where they had settled after the Assyrian scattering. They are going to come back. Those are going to return to Jerusalem, and today they call themselves Gentiles. The Christian nations are going to join up with Judah, and return to Palestine, known today as Israel.​

Ezekiel 37:15-23 tells us how the Lord will join the two houses back together in the Millennium Age. God told Ezekiel to take two sticks and mark on one stick the name of Ephraim, the ruling tribe of the House of Israel, representing all the ten tribes and their companions. On the other stick Ezekiel was to mark the name of Judah, for the House of Judah, and place both sticks together in one hand. This was to symbolize the bringing them both together into one nation, that they would return to God.​

Ezekiel 37:15-23 [16] "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: [17] And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. [18] And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? [19] Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. [20] And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."​

So! you seriously want to tell me that the houses have been joined back together?Scripture proves you wrong.....​

As for Pastor Murray,yes I do listen to him,but not without checking him out against the Word!!!!!​

 

[Time Watcher]

Sorry, you are on the wrong track by what you have been taught

I have looked over your posting above and there would be no positive thing to discuss

You and I have a very different rendering of the scriptures that you offer .... not even close

And I have to say that neither Murray or one of his favorites, the false prophet Bullinger are good choices for you

I will answer any reasonable questions from a poster, but I do not have the time for those who come loaded with what I consider to be way off of the biblical road

Sorry, but it would take many months in my brief estimation to convince you otherwise .... and maybe never

I know what you have been taught as good or better than you do

If you want to improve your current understanding, I would suggest that you read some of my recent postings on this forum .... there are a number of them, but I doubt that you will ... and this is OK with me

 

[Messy]

1/3 of the nation will do this and all of these will be saved [Isaiah 11; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11]

I don't believe that.
666 number of the beast
Isaiah 66:6
The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the Lord,
Who fully repays His enemies!
7 “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
When Israel came back to God in the Old Testament, they all came.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

 

[Lollerskates]

BP

Margaret McDonald was supposedly the one who started the rapture belief in its modern form. she had a dream about people being taken up into the clouds, and the priests with her took the theory and ran with it - even though she told them the dream felt evil and demonic in nature.

 

[Messy]

BP

Margaret McDonald was supposedly the one who started the rapture belief in its modern form. she had a dream about people being taken up into the clouds, and the priests with her took the theory and ran with it - even though she told them the dream felt evil and demonic in nature.

Ken Peters had a dream about it in 1980. He was raised as a catholic, wasn't saved, got saved in the dream and irl 2 weeks later, he didn't even know the concept and he believes we go through the tribulation.
But in his dream the Antichrist[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] explained how this removal of people was God’s judgment upon them. How can that be of only the dead?[/FONT]
He didn't see people raptured, but he saw the dead raised and then chaos, the Antichrist and the tribulation and a christian that gathered other christians, there was a revival for a few months, but this christian said he had been lukewarm.
He also saw a dollar biljet which came out in 2011.
I Saw The Tribulation - Ken Peters Prophecy - 888c.com

 

[Time Watcher]

"astronomy and understanding the false astrology,
including the role it plays in the bible.
huge difference, and something the Lord told us to look for.
the stars are given for signs and times."


Bullinger used the occult form

Actually there is very little recorded in scripture other than recognizing the great power and creation of the Lord's universe that can be observed from the earth

And your repetitive "prove it" comment is your way of escape .... the burden of proof is on you .... much has been published about Bullinger and his associates, and their practices

I possess his writings and have read Bullinger and his was exactly what he is known to be, both by his own writings and by know facts

Do you know that some forum members actually research these things ... and look at your comments and compare?

..... and I see you still have your Murray clothes on ... it is hard to get rid of his false teaching for those who have been exposed

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

A little thread clean up has occurred.

The flaming stops now. The goading and snide remarks need to stop. If you cannot have adult conversations, then please go elsewhere.
MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[zeke37]

"astronomy and understanding the false astrology,
including the role it plays in the bible.
huge difference, and something the Lord told us to look for.
the stars are given for signs and times."


Bullinger used the occult form

as a Christian, i'd ask u to prove it
since U made the statement.

Actually there is very little recorded in scripture other than recognizing the great power and creation of the Lord's universe that can be observed from the earth

well, then perhaps this lesson is for u personally.
because there is plenty there.
u just never realized it. at least YET

And your repetitive "prove it" comment is your way of escape .... the burden of proof is on you .... much has been published about Bullinger and his associates, and their practices

let's see. court of law..... burden is upon U, not I.
u r accusing him, not I, so u prove your case.

I possess his writings

you mean, u may possess some or a few of his writings

and have read Bullinger and his was exactly what he is known to be, both by his own writings and by know facts

lol.

Do you know that some forum members actually research these things ... and look at your comments and compare?

they read yours too, and compare.
as for who they will believe, time will tell.
but your credibility lacks because u blatantly accuse
and even judge your brethren thus playing God

..... and I see you still have your Murray clothes on ... it is hard to get rid of his false teaching for those who have been exposed

it hard to get rid of any false teaching.
just look at your pre triib rapture view.

you not only do your have you hate clothes still on,
but also your Darby/MacDonald clothes on.
and that kind of clothing will not equate to a robe

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Zeke

quote
he did not live in a time
when Israel started to come back to her land
so there's plenty of things he did not see to guide his theology
but he wasn't even dogmatic about the timing of the rapture for example.

he's got more truth in his little finger than anyone here has.
he was blessed of God and I have learned a lot from him.

try reading some of his shorter works for yourself.
here's the link to the companion bible's appendix
End Quote


This Idea that the return of the Jewish people to the land of Judea is some miracle of God is just plain nonsense.

A doctrine was created in the late 1700's and then launched with great zeal on the American public. Books and doctrines preached at universities and schools in the early 1800's by Authors like George Bush talk of how it is the New Nations destiny to recreate a state of Israel and to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth,

These are the same group of people that have controlled the whole process from the late 1700's through to today.

The Author of the Book I spoke of is George Bush not the president it was written in the early 1800's. No it was Not George W Bush. IT WAS HIS GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT Uncle.

So is it just a coincidence that those families that have created this doctrine are the same families as those who implement it. Let me guess your answer might be but the Bushes have only controlled America for 12 of the last 30 years. This is true but if you think the Bush family is the only one's who are involved then you need to do a lot of research.

The Jews return to the land of Judea is a conscious effort of a select group of people that stretches back over 200 years. There desire to do it....the method in which they planed to do it all written out in books and taught in American Universities centuries in advance.

Oh and please remember my Handle is JUST THE FACTS.....not Just the made up crap that sounds good. I post nothing without having proof of what I am saying. Believe me there is a mountain of evidence to show that this is what has happened.

Just like Hitler published a book that told the world what he was going to do so have these people. The only difference is very few have read their books in the last 100 years.

Perhaps it is time for everyone to read their self explained plans

 

[zeke37]

Hi Zeke

quote
he did not live in a time
when Israel started to come back to her land
so there's plenty of things he did not see to guide his theology
but he wasn't even dogmatic about the timing of the rapture for example.

he's got more truth in his little finger than anyone here has.
he was blessed of God and I have learned a lot from him.

try reading some of his shorter works for yourself.
here's the link to the companion bible's appendix
End Quote


This Idea that the return of the Jewish people to the land of Judea is some miracle of God is just plain nonsense.

seems strange that they'd be there today then.
coincidence?

A doctrine was created in the late 1700's and then launched with great zeal on an uneducated American public. Books and doctrines preached at universities and schools in the early 1800's by Authors like George Bush talk of how it is the New Nations destiny to recreate a state of Israel and to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the Earth,

yes I've heard that before

These are the same group of people that have controlled the whole process from the late 1700's through to today.

ok

The Author of the Book I spoke of is George Bush not the president it was written in the early 1800's. No it was Not George W Bush. IT WAS HIS GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT Uncle.

seems easier to me, to empower a nation that already existed then,
rather than to create one

So is it just a coincidence that those families that have created this doctrine are the same families as those who implement it. Let me guess your answer might be but the Bushes have only controlled America for 12 of the last 30 years. This is true but if you think the Bush family is the only one's who are involved then you need to do a lot of research.

The Jews return to the land of Judea is a conscious effort of a select group of people that stretches back over 200 years. There desire to do it....the method in which they planed to do it all written out in books and taught in American Universities centuries in advance.

ya, I have heard that theory/conspiracy before.

Oh and please remember my Handle is JUST THE FACTS.....not Just the made up crap that sounds good. I post nothing without having proof of what I am saying. Believe me there is a mountain of evidence to show that this is what has happened.

problem is, that there is a mountain of seeming evidence
for just about any conspiracy or biblical theory

I currently believe the house of Judah is planted there now, but not entirely,
but over 1/2 who know their roots of the house of Judah are there today.

ow, even if it wa a huge conspiracy for 300 years, God is in control and will use it to further His plan involving that area and people.

ps. just because they are there, doesn't mean they get off scott free.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Zeke

Quote
ya, I have heard that theory/conspiracy before.
End Quote

It is not a conspiracy theory it is a documented fact. Would anyone call Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews as a conspiracy theory. Well some nut case would. However the educated mind knows that if someone publishes a book with their stated political, social and military goals and then spends decades or in this case centuries bringing them about it is not a theory it is a documented fact.

Quote from George Bush's book Valley of Vision pg. 40

"It does not appear therefore that any special duty of Christians is involved in this predicted lot except so far as governmental action may be requisite in removing political obstacles that stand in the way of the event."

End Quote


This is just one of many statements made showing the intentions of these people to force the event to happen. It was then and has always been their intention, through political and military force create a modern Jewish State. To then bolster this state and forcibly remove the Palestinian people.

They stated it hundreds of years ago. Then through political control and military force they created the Jewish state.

Then further produced books in the mid and late 20th century that pointed to the results of their centuries long political efforts and achievements as an act of God and proof of the truth of the doctrine they themselves created.

It is a doctrine created by them with stated prophetic results......Then through their own political and military actions they fulfilled their own stated prophetic outcomes.

It is a Lie of massive proportions perpetrated on the American public as fulfilled prophecy. A Doctrine created by them fulfilled by their own actions and then claimed by them as proof that the doctrine they created is true.

 

[Biblewriter]

BP

Margaret McDonald was supposedly the one who started the rapture belief in its modern form. she had a dream about people being taken up into the clouds, and the priests with her took the theory and ran with it - even though she told them the dream felt evil and demonic in nature.

I don't blame you for believing this, for there are many who proclaim it as truth. But it has been disproved repeatedly in this forum.

The Margaret MacDonald Lie http://www.christianforums.com/t7276651-20/

 

[Lollerskates]

I don't lame you for believing this, for there are many who proclaim it as truth. But it has been disproved repeatedly in this forum.

The Margaret MacDonald Lie http://www.christianforums.com/t7276651-20/

I said "supposedly," so I never really gave my alliance on my belief. Anyway, there is enough information in the bible to understand there is no pre-tribulation rapture. Just like the Hebrews had to go through the Exodus judgments (but were spared,) just like Noah had to go through the Flood (but was spared,) just like Daniel and his friends had to go through Babylon conquering Jerusalem (but were spared,) so shall the people of the age of the tribulation must go through the times (but, will be spared.) God's pattern is to always save a remnant. Why would the 144,000 be subjected to "hell on earth," but everyone else gets a free pass out via rapture?

As Christ said (in my paraphrase): if He got crucified for His allegiance to God, at best we can expect the same thing happen to us for our belief in and on Him. But, it doesn't mean we will have the same things befall us; it just means we shouldn't expect we are above crucifixion. So, I see no reason to believe Believers will be raptured away before "the bad stuff" happens - especially given Daniel 11:32-35, the aforementioned patriarchal examples, and just common sense. What kind of sense does it make for there not to be witnesses - especially lawfully legitimate witnesses - to see God's judgment, and thus experience and testify to His judgment on evil? What kind of sense does it make for all of the good/holy believers to be taken, and then judge those left behind when there is no one to at least tell/teach them what is going on.

The rapture is a very dangerous doctrine. It sets people up to lose their faith in God. Because, when it doesn't happen (as one expects,) that is when the aching feeling of betrayal, deception, and loss of faith sink in. And, that is by design. How disheartening would it be to be "left behind?" What kind of rationalization would a believer make to reconcile that what s/he expected to happen didn't happen? It is a very dangerous doctrine; God is not about snatching us out of harms way completely; He is about preserving, protecting, and strengthening us in the face of harm/shadow of death/etc.

 

[Bible2]

Lollerskates said in post 76:

Anyway, there is enough information in the bible to understand there is no pre-tribulation rapture.

That's right.

For nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, and the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Lollerskates said in post 76:

What kind of sense does it make for there not to be witnesses - especially lawfully legitimate witnesses - to see God's judgment, and thus experience and testify to His judgment on evil?

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's judgment or wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's judgment or wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Lollerskates said in post 76:

What kind of sense does it make for all of the good/holy believers to be taken, and then judge those left behind when there is no one to at least tell/teach them what is going on.

Also, Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer only to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

Lollerskates said in post 76:

The rapture is a very dangerous doctrine. It sets people up to lose their faith in God. Because, when it doesn't happen (as one expects,) that is when the aching feeling of betrayal, deception, and loss of faith sink in.

Very good point.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow there's going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on that hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day, at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. After the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.