Pre trib rapture invented after 1800?

[Bible2]

Messy said in post 25:

And the church will be asleep then and has to watch, after the trib where you had to make a choice: follow antichrist or get your head cut off?

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:13), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that the Lord's return won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Messy said in post 25:

And the church will be asleep then and has to watch, after the trib where you had to make a choice: follow antichrist or get your head cut off?

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Messy said in post 25:

Marrying, eating, drinking, days of Noah, they can't even eat, because they can't buy or sell.

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Messy said in post 25:

Marrying, eating, drinking, days of Noah, they can't even eat, because they can't buy or sell.

Those in the church who will be in protected wilderness places will be able to eat without having to buy or sell (Revelation 12:6).

(See also the first section of post 24)

Messy said in post 25:

A part of the church that's not ready goes through the trib and He could be speaking to jews who haven't accepted Him yet also.

Are you saying that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture? If so, note that nothing in scripture requires that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Messy said in post 25:

He said this to His disciples and it was not about them personally.

That's right.

While Jesus was speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). The events he foretold there didn't happen in the lifetime of the apostles, or any time since then, but will occur in our future.

That is, Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation-rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) and their becoming offended (Matthew 24:10) that he would let them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 28:

The Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia are immortal and with the Lord during His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Regarding Revelation 4:4, the 24 elders could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Time Watcher said in post 28:

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Regarding Revelation 7:9-17, note that it doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Time Watcher said in post 28:

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Regarding Revelation 11:1, the temple in Revelation 11:1-2 is the same future, 3rd-earthly temple as Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, the outer court of which temple will eventually be given to the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2), the same Gentiles who will later tread the earthly Jerusalem under foot for 42 literal months (Revelation 11:2).

Time Watcher said in post 28:

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Regarding Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 13:6, those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at that mid-tribulation time will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

Time Watcher said in post 28:

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

Regarding Revelation 17:14, Revelation 19:1-9, and Revelation 19:14, other verses, 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

 

[Time Watcher]

"Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]"


Not angels B2 .... these scriptures describe immortal humans and you know this

You just have to get around it in order to teach your latter rain MSOG ruse

 

[notreligus]

For two thousand years the Church have done a lot of speculating. The fact that many in the early church believed in a rapture is a non-issue. Instead of occupying until He comes we are busy creating scenarios. It could be speculated that the Church at Thessalonica believed in a rapture as some of them were fearful that they had missed Christ's return. The Jews in the Church expected Christ to come at any moment and do what He had yet to do: Set up His earthly kingdom. He will do this in the future, but on His timeframe, not ours.

The word "blasphemer" is being tossed around in this thread and it should not be used without some knowledge of just what that means. Having a different belief about end-times from the user of that word doesn't warrant the use of that word. The early church fathers who are quoted had differing beliefs. Are they all blasphemers?

The real blaspheming goes on when Christians proclaim a different Jesus than the One of the Scriptures, and claim that the New Covenant is for the Jews. That's not what Paul taught. There is a new man created in Christ. There are no more Jews or Gentiles in the eyes of God Almighty. Our righteousness does not come by virtue of being an Israelite, but our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ. Christianity is about Christ! He is reigning now over His kingdom from the right hand of the Father. God has everything under His control. He will come back and destroy the enemy forever, and He will set up His eternal kingdom on the New Earth.

 

[notreligus]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

[Time Watcher]

"The real blaspheming goes on when Christians proclaim a different Jesus than the One of the Scriptures, and claim that the New Covenant is for the Jews. That's not what Paul taught. There is a new man created in Christ. There are no more Jews or Gentiles in the eyes of God Almighty"


The Lord's salvation is one matter and does include any who turn to Him [both the "Jew" and the Gentile]

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

 

[zeke37]

I bet they are ALL directed at you...my bad.
only a few posters here have ever done that to me.
and u are one of them.
but I know who u are

listen cw, what u did was wrong.
more wrong than name calling or getting mad for a second

you questioned a man's faith/belief in Christ
and that is a HUGE NO_NO.
nothing he wrote even remotely suggests that he is not a Christian
his testimony proves he is.

you really should apologize and repent.
this has nothing to do with eschatology

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 46:

You just have to get around it in order to teach your latter rain MSOG ruse

Note that what has been presented hasn't been based on latter rain MSOG teachings (which have never even been looked at), but on the Bible itself.

*******

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Jeremiah 30, the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Jeremiah 31:31-37, even though the prior millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the first century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled, the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Ezekiel 36, it could refer to a restoration of the Jews to their land during the future millennium.

On the other hand, the rebudding of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32 could refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Micah 5, verse 5, "the Assyrian shall come into our land" could refer to when the Antichrist and his world armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4, Daniel 11:45) and the defeat of the Antichrist (Isaiah 30:30-33, Revelation 19:20). The subsequent successful fighting by the Jews in Zechariah 14:14 and Zechariah 12:6-8 could include what Micah 5:5b-6a is referring to.

The ancient Assyrian empire included Lebanon, and the Antichrist could have Assyrian blood in him.

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named "Hakim". The Antichrist's last name could be "Hakim", and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the first stage of his world takeover) and employ them as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Daniel 9:24-27, in verse 26 the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Zechariah 12, verses 1-9 will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:11-21), just as Zechariah 12:10-14 will happen at his 2nd coming (Romans 11:26). A few years before the 2nd coming, Israel could be defeated and occupied during the horrible future war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17.

Zechariah 12:9 doesn't mean that Jesus will destroy every last individual in the unbelieving nations at his 2nd coming. For some unbelieving individuals will be left alive: Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Time Watcher said in post 52:

However, the vast majority of His nation of Israel has rejected Him even to this day .... and He intends to bring a believing remnant under His specific covenant with them as national entity when He is ready .... no other nation has this position

[Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 39; Micah 5; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12; 13; 14]

Regarding Zechariah 14, it's about Jesus' 2nd coming with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the 2nd-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at his 2nd coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his first coming, he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as he left.

Before Jesus returns, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zechariah 14:9), and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the bodily resurrected church will rule the unsaved survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).

Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:4-5 refers to only the unsaved elect Jews in Jerusalem fleeing the city at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-5).

 

[Time Watcher]

No B2

Zechariah 14:4-5 refers to a portion of believing and protected Israel who will flee from the invasion of the beast and his human followers [the current day Muslims of the Middle East] at the middle of the coming time of Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week decreed [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

 

[Messy]

The woman who had a place in the desert is not the church, it's Israel:
Revelation 12
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Isaiah 66 is not about the church, but Israel:

Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

 

[Time Watcher]

You are correct Messy

 

[n2thelight]

No B2

Zechariah 14:4-5 refers to a portion of believing and protected Israel who will flee from the invasion of the beast and his human followers [the current day Muslims of the Middle East] at the middle of the coming time of Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week decreed [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

Just curious,when you say Israel whom do you mean?Is it the Israel of the middle east that's there now?

 

[ebedmelech]

I wouldn't say the pretrib rapture came after 1800. It was introduced in by John Nelson Darby...but it's very possible that it's roots were well before Darby though. He simply worked from what he had been taught. He's considered the author of Dispensational Theology.

Nonetheless it's the popular view and quite errant when it comes to eschatology.

 

[Time Watcher]

"Just curious,when you say Israel whom do you mean?Is it the Israel of the middle east that's there now?"


It is ... no doubt

The prophetic scriptures tell of a returned remnant of Israel to the land in the midst their ancient enemies who are the Muslims of the Middle East today

The 70th week has not yet begun, but Israel must be in the land to experience the time appointed for them .... the nation is still in unbelief today, but this condition is going to change for those who will turn to their Messiah and King

1/3 of the nation will do this and all of these will be saved [Isaiah 11; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11]

There is a plethora of related scriptures that tell the very same truth .... the Bible prophets were all Isaelites and were shown these things that are coming .... and they will take place with 100% accurate fulfillment

I would suggest that you make an effort to discover the visions of the Bible Prophets [2 Peter 1:16-21]

Here is a good one related to Israel's coming return [Ezekiel 36]

 

[n2thelight]

"Just curious,when you say Israel whom do you mean?Is it the Israel of the middle east that's there now?"


It is ... no doubt

The prophetic scriptures tell of a returned remnant of Israel to the land in the midst their ancient enemies who are the Muslims of the Middle East today

The 70th week has not yet begun, but Israel must be in the land to experience the time appointed for them .... the nation is still in unbelief today, but this condition is going to change for those who will turn to their Messiah and King

1/3 of the nation will do this and all of these will be saved [Isaiah 11; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11]

There is a plethora of related scriptures that tell the very same truth .... the Bible prophets were all Isaelites and were shown these things that are coming .... and they will take place with 100% accurate fulfillment

I would suggest that you make an effort to discover the visions of the Bible Prophets [2 Peter 1:16-21]

Here is a good one related to Israel's coming return [Ezekiel 36]

Of course we disagree,not to say that people won't come to Christ during this time....Let me just say,Im one who dosn't believe that the Church is seperate from Israel,as for those that returned to the state in 1948 ,consisted only of the tribe of Judah,ie Jew's,who were of the good basket,along with them came also those of the evil basket...

Jeremiah 24:1 "The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon."

Jeremiah 24:2 "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad."

The good figs will already know Christ,the bad figs are those that call themselves Jew's and are not.......

Those who don't believe in Christ now over in Israel are no better off than anyone else in the world.......

 

[ebedmelech]

Of course we disagree,not to say that people won't come to Christ during this time....Let me just say,Im one who dosn't believe that the Church is seperate from Israel,as for those that returned to the state in 1948 ,consisted only of the tribe of Judah,ie Jew's,who were of the good basket,along with them came also those of the evil basket...

Jeremiah 24:1 "The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon."

Jeremiah 24:2 "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad."

The good figs will already know Christ,the bad figs are those that call themselves Jew's and are not.......

Those who don't believe in Christ now over in Israel are no better off than anyone else in the world.......

Did you read all of Jeremiah 24?

 

[n2thelight]

Did you read all of Jeremiah 24?

Yep,do you have any verses in particular?

 

[Time Watcher]

Does Bullinger teach you n2?

I know that Arnold Murray touts Bullinger

And you are correct there is no agreement between us on the subject of Israel .... impossible .... oil and water do not mix [Matthew 25:1-13] ... listen to the Lord on this matter

And your "basket" case is all conjecture taken out of context

There are 7 million + in Israel today with representation of all tribes present

Your idea is bogus and you cannot prove what you say .... and the prophet Isaiah refutes you [Isaiah 11:11]

 

[ebedmelech]

Yep,do you have any verses in particular?

When you read it all...it's come and gone...it's fulfilled.

 

[zeke37]

Does Bullinger teach you n2?

I know that Arnold Murray touts Bullinger

r u gonna bash Bullinger now?
he was a dispensationalist and a pre tribber
lol
still, one of my favorites

And you are correct there is no agreement between us on the subject of Israel .... impossible .... oil and water do not mix [Matthew 25:1-13] ... listen to the Lord on this matter

of course it is you that is wrong,
but will u take your own advice to listen to the Lord?

And your "basket" case is all conjecture taken out of context

there's back up scripture to that too.

There are 7 million + in Israel today with representation of all tribes present

how do u know?
they certainly don't.

Your idea is bogus and you cannot prove what you say .... and the prophet Isaiah refutes you [Isaiah 11:11]

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
​

that does not refute him.
btw, all that is Muslim nations and lands

and it's IN THAT DAY. THE DAY OF THE LORD
not in 1948 or 1967, which is obv before THAT DAY

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
​