Pre trib rapture invented after 1800?

[zeke37]

But in the statements By Irenaeus about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

“For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2.)

We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

“Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3.)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4.)

We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”

where in the world did u get that from?

where do u think he says that the resurrection of the just
is before the AC's 3.5 years?

please bold and highlight it for us.

I must have missed it AGAIN

Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.”

pure speculation, because u divide them

saints and elect are Christian terms,
also used of specific OT chosen of God
but none the less, terms used all through the NT to describe us.

Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

(contonued)

what a bunch of whooooey

he said the church goes through the trib
and it is the last contest for them, they have to overcome.

pre trib is outright creepy

 

[zeke37]

Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he referred to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

yet he still says that WE may AVOID him.
not be taken away to heaven for it.
but overcome him...contest...

and this is the same terminology used by Paul and Jesus.
those who are watching/working, are the "we"
those not watching, asleep, are the "they"

both can be Christians.

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1.)

again, speaking of "us" being wrong in interpretation when "we" see him.

“These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets.

which means that he said,
in those ends times, there will be false prophets among "us"

But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2.)

all the above speaks to Christians being wrong in their interp of 666,
and being fooled by him

that screams that he thought the church is here for it
he says we have to WAIT through the times of the 10 kings etc,
but which pre trib teaches we shall be gone for

Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the word “those,” along with “ye” and “he” when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

all the while he was speaking of the church

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2.)

that's basically verbatim from Mat24/Mar13

Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

“Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1.)

In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.

the resurrection is at the last day
that's something that u have a problem with

at the resurrection, it is judgement time. good and bad like.
these same thoughts are described in the passage u just quoted.

in fact, there has not been even one hint of pre trib
in anything that u have presented with regards to Irenaeus

nothing at all.

So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’

we can believe his words were his,
or we can change them to mean what u say they mean
lol.
a contest which we overcome

he never mentions leaving before or during the trib

The discussion in this thread is not about whether or not the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is correct. It is about when this doctrine began to be taught.

It is well known that from the beginning, right down to today, different people come to different conclusions about the meanings of various scriptures. So it is irrational to make assumptions about what Irenaeus meant to say on the basis of one's own interpretation of the meaning of scripture.

yet what have u just done?

Irenaeus did not teach pre trib at all,
certainly not in anything that u have just presented

 

[Bible2]

Messy said in post 7:

Someone who wants to show pretrib rapture is Biblical.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Messy said in post 17:

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
- rapture -
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation

Note that the "you" in Matthew 24:15 is addressing the church, so the rapture can't have happened yet.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

*******

Messy said in post 20:

Henoch was raptured before the flood.

Note that Enoch wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah in the ark). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year that Solomon's temple began to be built: Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26).

And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back: If Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died, some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

 

[Bible2]

Biblewriter said in post 13:

Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the word “those,” along with “ye” and “he” when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2.)

Note that Irenaeus was simply quoting there from a Biblical passage that's addressing the church:

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Also, regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

*******

Biblewriter said in post 14:

The discussion in this thread is not about whether or not the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture is correct. It is about when this doctrine began to be taught.

Then why are you referring to Irenaeus at all, when even you admit that he wasn't pre-trib, as that term is understood today. To try to present what you feel to be Irenaeus' mid-trib view as "pre-trib" is simply misleading.

 

[Messy]

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Note that the "you" in Matthew 24:15 is addressing the church, so the rapture can't have happened yet.

And the church will be asleep then and has to watch, after the trib where you had to make a choice: follow antichrist or get your head cut off? Marrying, eating, drinking, days of Noah, they can't even eat, because they can't buy or sell.

A part of the church that's not ready goes through the trib and He could be speaking to jews who haven't accepted Him yet also.
He said this to His disciples and it was not about them personally.

 

[Ludicrus]

Barnabas 130 A.D.- "Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are called by God, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord."

(The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter IV)

There is an interesting paragraph in the Shepherd of Hermas, that shows that the early church spoke of tribulations often, for they were going through many, but they also knew of a separate tribulation, through which they believed the church would not pass.

Hermas tells us that he passed by a wild beast and met a virgin who saluted him saying, Hail O man.! He returned the greeting... Lady, hail! Then she asked, Has nothing crossed your path? Hermas replied. I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy, I escaped from it. The virgin said, Well, did you escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name? You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you didnot doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly."

Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas,

Book I, fouth, ch. ii, also ch. iii)

Isaiah 26:20-21
"Come, My people enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For behold, Jehovah cometh forth out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

In the presence of such a beast...

Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out.

 

[Messy]

In the presence of such a beast...

Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out.

So we would be on earth and seated in heaven with Him just like now with a new body?
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Time Watcher]

"Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out"


The Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia are immortal and with the Lord during His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

These are obviously not on the earth as the tribulation rages

It is possible that you will be on the earth during the tribulation ..... make sure that you read this [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-18]

And if you are you had better repent and turn to the Lord before you are either killed in the tribulation and lost forever, or rejected by Him of you survive [Matthew 25:41-46]

.... and know this; the Lord did not "invent" His intent to immortalize His ecclesia before He brings his hour [time] of trial and judgment in the 1800s .... He has "planned" and sanctioned it ........ long before, from the beginning of human creation

Do not be fooled by the "rapture" bashers who call the Lord's intent a "lie of the devil"

This behavior is blasphemous

Those who "invent" the rejection of this truth have been and are many up to this very day

 

[Messy]

A few months back I felt as if I was raptured, I really thought so. I was caught up in heaven as part of the bride, next to Jesus, but I was still on earth. Later I saw Him in a dream coming three steps forward, so I was afraid the rapture was coming, but I believe before He comes for His bride He comes to His bride (revival). The whole world hasn't heard THIS gospel yet. And He comes for a bride without spot or wrinkle. I guess that kind of a bride is doing the works that Jesus did.
Why else would the others say: Lord Lord we did many miracles in Your Name?

 

[Biblewriter]

In the presence of such a beast...

Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out.

That is why I did not include the shepherd in my list of ancient pre-tribbers.

 

[Ludicrus]

"Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out"


The Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia are immortal and with the Lord during His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

Here they are [Revelation 4:4; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14]

These are obviously not on the earth as the tribulation rages

It is possible that you will be on the earth during the tribulation ..... make sure that you read this [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-18]

And if you are you had better repent and turn to the Lord before you are either killed in the tribulation and lost forever, or rejected by Him of you survive [Matthew 25:41-46]

.... and know this; the Lord did not "invent" His intent to immortalize His ecclesia before He brings his hour [time] of trial and judgment in the 1800s .... He has "planned" and sanctioned it ........ long before, from the beginning of human creation

Do not be fooled by the "rapture" bashers who call the Lord's intent a "lie of the devil"

This behavior is blasphemous

Those who "invent" the rejection of this truth have been and are many up to this very day

What are you so afraid of? I've seen a lot of fear in people but you take the cake!

Doesn't sound like someone who can lay down their lives for the sake of the Gospel, OR trust the Lord with their lives, much less eternity.

 

[Time Watcher]

"What are you so afraid of? I've seen a lot of fear in people but you take the cake!"




Absolutely nothing


It is the people like you who are afraid .... those with ego problems must always prove themselves

You are a tough guy I'll bet .... yes?

You are not .... you are weak and angery, and your behavior shows this by your offensive demeanor

I would strongly suggest that you consider what has happened to you and for you to investigate why .... then seek the Lord and His truth for your own sake son

When you get to the end and have nothing to show .... it is gona be all about Who you know

 

[Ludicrus]

"What are you so afraid of? I've seen a lot of fear in people but you take the cake!"




Absolutely nothing


It is the people like you who are afraid .... those with ego problems must always prove themselves

You are a tough guy I'll bet .... yes?

You are not .... you are weak and angery, and your behavior shows this by your offensive demeanor

I would strongly suggest that you consider what has happened to you and for you to investigate why .... then seek the Lord and His truth for your own sake son

When you get to the end and have nothing to show .... it is gona be all about Who you know

You are a sad, sad little man. I'm actually very happy. IF the Truth offends you, you have stumbled over the Cornerstone.

 

[Time Watcher]

Just exactly what I am talking about son .... I have to tell you that you are in grave danger

.... and only you can correct your course .... if you are willing?

Better get on with it while you still have time

 

[Messy]

You are a tough guy I'll bet .... yes?

Nope, it's a woman.

 

[Messy]

What are you so afraid of? I've seen a lot of fear in people but you take the cake!

Doesn't sound like someone who can lay down their lives for the sake of the Gospel, OR trust the Lord with their lives, much less eternity.

Persecution is before the rapture, read Matthew. Not the big tribulation and His wrath. Has got nothing to do with fear. Enough christians are getting killed already.

 

[dfw69]

"What are you so afraid of? I've seen a lot of fear in people but you take the cake!"




Absolutely nothing


It is the people like you who are afraid .... those with ego problems must always prove themselves

You are a tough guy I'll bet .... yes?

You are not .... you are weak and angery, and your behavior shows this by your offensive demeanor

I would strongly suggest that you consider what has happened to you and for you to investigate why .... then seek the Lord and His truth for your own sake son

When you get to the end and have nothing to show .... it is gona be all about Who you know

Under their names is a symbol for male or female

 

[zeke37]

"Well, that says it right there! The beast was there. He was there. Just like the Tribulation. God takes us through. Not out"


The Lord's pre-tribulation ecclesia are immortal and with the Lord during His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

Here they are

[Revelation 4:4;

about John going to heaven

7:9-17;

the dead in Christ

11:1;

up for debate but not pre trib raptured folk.

12:12;

the dead in Christ

13:6;

the dead in Christ and God and the angels
17:14;
not pre trib raptured tho.

19:1-9; 19:14]

the first resurrection
came through that time of the beast and did not take the mark
and are gathered together with the martyred of the past

These are obviously not on the earth as the tribulation rages

well, most of who u have just alluded to is simply the dead in Christ
who wait in heaven until His Coming, and thus their raising (5th seal)

It is possible that you will be on the earth during the tribulation ..... make sure that you read this [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-18]

we all will be

And if you are you had better repent and turn to the Lord before you are either killed in the tribulation and lost forever, or rejected by Him of you survive [Matthew 25:41-46]

.... and know this; the Lord did not "invent" His intent to immortalize His ecclesia before He brings his hour [time] of trial and judgment in the 1800s .... He has "planned" and sanctioned it ........ long before, from the beginning of human creation

fantasy

Do not be fooled by the "rapture" bashers who call the Lord's intent a "lie of the devil"

all lies are of the devil

This behavior is blasphemous

teaching pre trib is as close as u can get to blaspheme

Those who "invent" the rejection of this truth have been and are many up to this very day

pre trib is the invention.

 

[Time Watcher]

Maybe you will finally get this straightened out too .... maybe

It is necessary you know

First the Bible prophets focus on the Middle East for understanding truth

Next, to stop kicking at the Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" action to immortalize you

This one is the most important of the two

Don't miss it .... if you do, the first will not make any difference

Hint: Murray's rapture bashing and McPherson's MacDonald hoax do not mix with the truth presented by the Bible prophets

.... sometime I will show you why .... maybe

 

[zeke37]

Maybe you will finally get this straightened out too .... maybe

already did. I left pre trib

It is necessary you know

yes I know.

First the Bible prophets focus on the Middle East for understanding truth

first? it came 2nd for me.

Next, to stop kicking at the Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" action to immortalize you

I don't believe in pre trib.
it is a set up to believe upon the AC
it's the litmus test

This one is the most important of the two

pre trib rapture is a fantasy. a fable.
I used to believe in it when I was ignorant
but I became aware of it's false pretence.
and I really tried hard o believe in it, to find it in scripture.

i am FULLY aware of what u guys and gals all THINK are verses about pre trib rapture
but none of them mean pre trib at all.
it's not there.

Don't miss it .... if you do, the first will not make any difference

the first doesn't exist, so I don't have to worry about missing it

Hint: Murray's rapture bashing and McPherson's MacDonald hoax do not mix with the truth presented by the Bible prophets

.... sometime I will show you why .... maybe

you been trying for weeks now.

but here's a hint for ya.
I don't follow Murray, haven't for years
but he gave me a solid foundation, and taught me a lot.
and I am NOT ashamed of studying with him

he's a TRUE man of God, and he taught me HOW to study for myself
so I don't have to listen to someones OPINION as scripture.

as for MacPhearson,
I really don't care who started pre trib
or who he says did etc.
I don't care about MMacD's dream or vision

whether it happened or not, or whether he visited her or not
is irrelevant to me and my beliefs about pre trib being wrong

so u bashing MacPherson and Murray
do not help your case at all. FYI

and if u have issue with part of Murray's Doctrine,
then bring it up and we will go over it together

don't bash the man. bash the doctrine.

so I am not going to bash Darby or anyone else
that folks feel is/are responsible for pre trib
I will however attack the doctrine with scripture.