Praise Song Cruncher by Table Talk Radio

[Hammster]

Hi hammster,

Well, as I said, I'm not necessarily non-Trinitarian, but my understanding of what that defines may be a bit different than many Baptists. For me that's ok. My goal is not to agree with Baptists, but to agree with God. We can certainly have a discussion regarding this, as I have before, but it should probably be done through a different thread or venue than this. There are actually a number of doctrines, ideas, teachings for which I am not in agreement with some Baptists. Predestination is one that gets a lot of discussion.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

Are you a baptist yourself?

 

[mikedsjr]

Hi hammster,

Probably not in some respects. I do believe that there is a God, the Father. That He has a Son, Jesus. And that integrated through them and us there is the Holy Spirit. No, I'm not one to proclaim with any confidence that Jesus is God. My understanding, and it comes from many, many years of study and prayer on the issue is that God, the Father created all things. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit have co-existed with God in an eternal nature. What I have gleaned through the Scriptures is that God created this realm through and for His Son. It was created with a purpose in which God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all play a part towards the salvation of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I now see why you are uncomfortable with the 5 points. I sensed long before this thread something was being withheld about your beliefs. Does your church know your stance?

 

[Bluelion]

Ted,

When you act like Jesus you get the same results Its fun isn't it I really appreciated your input and kind words in this thread. I have found you have treated everyone with respect and love even if you were not being treated the same. Thank you for following Jesus and making the effort.

As far as the church knowing your stance well I am part of the church, The Body of Christ, I think I see your stance just fine. Don't see any problem with it.

 

[mikedsjr]

Ted,

When you act like Jesus you get the same results Its fun isn't it I really appreciated your input and kind words in this thread. I have found you have treated everyone with respect and love even if you were not being treated the same. Thank you for following Jesus and making the effort.

So you treat those who believe heresies with respect? Interesting.

Ted, Where have i treated you with disrespect? Just curious.

 

[Hammster]

Ted,

When you act like Jesus you get the same results Its fun isn't it I really appreciated your input and kind words in this thread. I have found you have treated everyone with respect and love even if you were not being treated the same. Thank you for following Jesus and making the effort.

As far as the church knowing your stance well I am part of the church, The Body of Christ, I think I see your stance just fine. Don't see any problem with it.

I think it's fair to ask someone in the baptist forum if they are baptist. And since we are discussing worship, I think it's fair to ask them if they believe in the Trinity. That's not disrespectful.

 

[miamited]

I now see why you are uncomfortable with the 5 points. I sensed long before this thread something was being withheld about your beliefs. Does your church know your stance?

Hi mike,

I'm not sure that they are particularly aware of my stance. I speak what I believe whenever the subject comes up. No, it's not as if I've gone to the pastor and had some conversation with him in which I've said, "I'm not completely in agreement with the 'Jesus is God' teaching. I am, however, gladdened that you now 'see why I am uncomfortable with the 5 points, although I don't see why this particular piece of information has given you that enlightenment, but I'm glad that you now have it.

So you treat those who believe heresies with respect? Interesting.

Ted, Where have i treated you with disrespect? Just curious.

I try to follow the biblical principle to treat everyone with respect, although yes, there are times that I fail at that. That particular nature, I believe, is a command of the Scriptures. I didn't say that you hadn't treated me with respect. You may want to direct that question to the one who made the claim. However, I don't equate respect with agreement. I'm not the type of person that believes that just because someone doesn't agree with someone else that they need to be either disrespectful or hateful in their response.

If you guys are interested, and it's ok with mike, who began this thread, I'd be happy to answer any questions or explain my position.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hammster]

Hi mike,

I'm not sure that they are particularly aware of my stance. I speak what I believe whenever the subject comes up. No, it's not as if I've gone to the pastor and had some conversation with him in which I've said, "I'm not completely in agreement with the 'Jesus is God' teaching. I am, however, gladdened that you now 'see why I am uncomfortable with the 5 points, although I don't see why this particular piece of information has given you that enlightenment, but I'm glad that you now have it.



I try to follow the biblical principle to treat everyone with respect, although yes, there are times that I fail at that. That particular nature, I believe, is a command of the Scriptures. I didn't say that you hadn't treated me with respect. You may want to direct that question to the one who made the claim. However, I don't equate respect with agreement. I'm not the type of person that believes that just because someone doesn't agree with someone else that they need to be either disrespectful or hateful in their response.

If you guys are interested, and it's ok with mike, who began this thread, I'd be happy to answer any questions or explain my position.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Is this a baptist church that you attend?

 

[mikedsjr]

Well ted, At least we are in agreement on that disagreement, even strong disagreement,has nothing to do with respect.

You can answer away.

To go back on a subject earlier, here is a link to give an example of what i mean be I don't care for life application. As Chris Rosebrough states, he was asked by several Liberty University students who listen to his program to review a "sermon" by Brian Houston. If you want to jump to it, its at the 1 hr and 26 minute mark. Yes, this a 2 hr and 20 minute podcast. The first half is Chris Rosebrough reading the story of Joseph and explaining how typologically Joseph and his entire story is a representation of Jesus Christ. The only type of life application that Chris does is referencing we are all sinners and in need of a savior.

http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2015/10/for-the-students-of-liberty-university.html

 

[miamited]

Hi hammster,

Yes, I generally worship with a Baptist fellowship. It is not a church, it is a fellowship. The church is the body of all the believers across the globe.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Well ted, At least we are in agreement on that disagreement, even strong disagreement,has nothing to do with respect.

You can answer away.

To go back on a subject earlier, here is a link to give an example of what i mean be I don't care for life application. As Chris Rosebrough states, he was asked by several Liberty University students who listen to his program to review a "sermon" by Brian Houston. If you want to jump to it, its at the 1 hr and 26 minute mark. Yes, this a 2 hr and 20 minute podcast. The first half is Chris Rosebrough reading the story of Joseph and explaining how typologically Joseph and his entire story is a representation of Jesus Christ. The only type of life application that Chris does is referencing we are all sinners and in need of a savior.

http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2015/10/for-the-students-of-liberty-university.html

Hi mike,

With all due respect and deference to you, you may also answer away.

As to your site reference, if I may be so bold as to ask: How do you know that Mr. Rosebrough knows the truth? Mr. Rosebrough has a bad habit of interfering and throwing in his sidebars so that he can direct your thinking. I'm of a mind that I can make a determination about whether or not someone is speaking the truth about God on my own, with the Scriptures as my measure. I don't really feel it necessary for someone to interrupt every 30 seconds or so to insert their running dialogue. He takes issue that Joseph's brothers hating him for his dreams isn't true, but the Scriptures quite clearly tell us that they did hate him for his dreams. Personally, if I had to choose who, among these two men aren't rightly dividing the word of God, it would be Mr. Rosebrough. He obviously seems to be offended about the mention of dreams.

Friend, you are free to fill your mind with the commentaries that please you, but I'd certainly be careful in that. However, having listened to some of it, I honestly can't make the connection between what Mr. Houston is teaching and what is meant by 'life application'. Some people are led into deceit more easily than others. My encouragement to you is just to be careful adopting from others what you choose to set in your heart as to what you believe. Believe the Scriptures. All men are liars.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hammster]

Hi hammster,

Yes, I generally worship with a Baptist fellowship. It is not a church, it is a fellowship. The church is the body of all the believers across the globe.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Actually, that's not true. While there is a universal church, there are also local churches. See the letters to the seven churches inRevelation. Or Paul's letters to local churches, and his pastoral letters.

 

[mikedsjr]

Ted, I'm not sure you are of a mind to know the truth. Genesis 37:4 says they hated him because his father loved him more than all the other brothers. They hated him more when he spoke of his dream God gave him. Houston goes on to say all Joseph's struggles were attempts to stop Joseph's dreams. That's false. God orchestrated everything to protect his people. His story also shows a very close resemblance to Christ's life. No coincidence.

There is no life application here. There is typology of Christ here. Brian H makes this story about your own dreams. Chris Rosebrough goes through a lengthy teaching of the same text at the beginning to demonstrate what Scripture teaches. And you want to tell me to be cautious about Chris and embrace a false teacher. Chris stays much closer to the Scriptures.

 

[miamited]

Hi guys,

This is really very tiring. No, Mr. Houston doesn't say that 'all' of Joseph's problems were because of his dreams. He says, "They hated him because he was more blessed than themselves by his father. They hated him because of his first dream and they hated him even more because of his other dream. friend, that's exactly what the Scriptures say. Heres' the passage:

Now Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made a richly ornamented robe for him. When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him. Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. He said to them, "Listen to this dream I had: We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it." His brothers said to him, "Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?" And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said. Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?" His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Go ahead, you can check it for yourself in every translation. In the KJV it is rendered thus:

Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours. And when his brethren saw that their father loved him more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him. And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. And he said unto them, Hear , I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed : For, behold, we were binding * sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose , and also stood upright ; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about , and made obeisance to my sheaf. And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said , Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven * stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed ? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying. And his brethren went to feed their father's flock in Shechem.

And, finally, here's the ESV version which your commentator seems to favor:

Now Israel loved Joseph more than any other of his sons, because he was the son of his old age. And he made him a robe of many colors. But when his brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers, they hated him and could not speak peacefully to him. Now Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers they hated him even more. He said to them, "Hear this dream that I have dreamed: Behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and behold, my sheaf arose and stood upright. And behold, your sheaves gathered around it and bowed down to my sheaf." His brothers said to him, "Are you indeed to reign over us? Or are you indeed to rule over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, "Behold, I have dreamed another dream. Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me." But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves to the ground before you?" And his brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind.

However, you are free to go with whomever you feel is telling you the truth. Me, I'm going with the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi hammster,

Yes the letters of Paul and the Revelation are to the 'church' in the various cities that the letters were directed to, however, they were not directed to the building that sits at the corner of Fourth and Main, but to the people of those cities who were believers. I also believe that there is a church in my city, but it is not the First Baptist Church or the St. Paul's Episcopal Church or the St. Mark's Methodist Church. It is all the people who live within the geographical confines of my city, and what is considered the urban surrounding area, that are born again believers.

I actually came to know and trust and believe God, Jesus and the Spirit and the word with a fellowship that met under the sign title out front of 'First Baptist Church of Perrine'. Shortly after joining up with this fellowship they actually carried a vote to change the name of the facilities to 'Christ Fellowship' because of this very issue. I was one who voted in agreement. Just as the song by the Imperials says, "There won't be any Baptists or Methodists, etc., in the eternal life." There is no Baptist Church. There is no Methodist Church under the umbrella of God's church. There is only Jesus' church and while hopefully every city does have a part of that church within its boundaries. It isn't all the people that meet in the particular buildings that we name 'Church'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Bluelion]

So you treat those who believe heresies with respect? Interesting.

Ted, Where have i treated you with disrespect? Just curious.

I don't think he is that far from the kingdom of God if he is far at all. I am not so fast to condemn because I have not been condemned.

 

[mikedsjr]

Ted there is no way you listened to all of that BS from Houston. False Prophet Houston states

1:33:48 "but when his brothers saw that his father loved him more than his brothers, notice this, they hated him. They hated him because he dared to dream."

1:35:12 "Let me talk to you about the power of dreams.you the scripture says, proverbs 29:18, "where there is no vision, people perish"....he doesn't quote "blessed is he who keeps the law"

1:37:16 "do you know why many young people lose their way? because often times they were never ever encouraged to dream, to live their life with vision".

1:37:41 "and sadly, there reason some young break out, do their own thing, run wild, dwell carelessly, sadly, God given potential can perish because of a lack of vision. a lack of dream.

1:38:03 "in the Message Translation....(commentary: The message isn't a translation at all and its a den of where heretics flock to)..."it say it like this, "if people can't see what God is doing they stumble all over themselves. but when they attend to what he reveals they are most blessed".

1:38:41 "People stumble all over themselves because they have no insight. no vision. no dream into the future.

1:39:14 "I would encourage every single one of you, to have that kind of God given dream that burns deep down inside of you.

1:39:25 "first, your dream is going to threaten some people

fill in your quote about Joseph that you posted that Houston said and then you avoid the crap out of the entirety of his false doctrinal speech.

1:40:14 "Your dream will threaten some people

1:41:58 "Dreamers never stop dreaming" (comment: even though Joseph only had 2 dreams God gave him)

1:49:15 "your going to need the will to live. why would you need your will to live? because there will be plenty of things that are trying to kill your dream. And maybe like joseph, some thing may even try to kill you, I mean, joseph, every step of the way, his brothers try to kill him. when he was serving in potifars house slavery try to kill his dreams, then accusations try to kill his dreams. Imprisonment tried to kill his dreams. when he became the leader of all of egypt famine try to kill his dreams

*******

Nuff said.

 

[Bluelion]

Ted,

I really don't see the whole Joseph story as pressing so please for give me if I skip it.

You said you are not sure Jesus is God. May I ask why?

could I give you somethings to think of? Jesus said before Abraham was I AM, that is the name God took at the burning bush. This is a direct claim by Jesus to be in fact God. Jesus said if you have see me you have seen the Father, and also I am the Father are one. The Father is spirit we don't see Him but we can see Jesus. Also in Rev Power is past from The Father to Jesus and Heaven beginning to worship Jesus, the praise from the father Holy Holy Holy, no comes to The Son, worth worth worthy is the Lamb who was slain. Does this help at all? God is in 3 parts but different persons called the God Head. The Father Son and The Holy Spirit all equal in power but with different rolls.

 

[mikedsjr]

I don't think he is that far from the kingdom of God if he is far at all. I am not so fast to condemn because I have not been condemned.

I didn't condemn him. I condemn Modalist theology as a heretical theology. There is a difference. I don't use the term heretical lightly. I mean it in its historical context. There is no question a lot of people stroll the halls of churches believing some bad theology because their just unware.

If however he went to the pastor of the church he attends and told them he doesn't believe Jesus is God, they do however, out of the protection of the his flock, remove him if he doesn't repent of this belief.

 

[Bluelion]

I didn't condemn him. I condemn Modalist theology as a heretical theology. There is a difference. I don't use the term heretical lightly. I mean it in its historical context. There is no question a lot of people stroll the halls of churches believing some bad theology because their just unware.

If however he went to the pastor of the church he attends and told them he doesn't believe Jesus is God, they do however, out of the protection of the his flock, remove him if he doesn't repent of this belief.

Well i care little for building of stone and wood, I am in the church of Jesus and I have not been show Ted is not, Just because He does not understand does not expel Him, I did not understand Jesus was God, I was told but I did not know how it worked for along time, I was still saved, I just did not understand. There is no sin in not understanding. The only one who can remove someone from the Church of Christ is Jesus.

If he is in need of salvation you would throw some one in need of Jesus away from Jesus you would turn them away? and who are you? You are a sinner like everyone else and not God.

 

[Bluelion]

One more thing it is not the pastors flock it is Jesus's church. Jesus is the good Shepard the pastor is a servant. He is there to serve the people in God's name. To be honest I much more worried about you then Ted.